yawn this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard the brasileiro is more competitve than the Libertadores and you come up with these ridiculous numbers that don't mean anything. Argentina have won more CL than Brasil, so I guess the argentinian tourney is more difficult than CB and the Copa Libertadores The Copa Libertadores is more difficult to win. If it was the other way around, then wouldn't the Brasilian teams have swept everything?? I mean seriously, if you exclude Pele's Santos, it toom you guys 16 years to win it I'll admit that in recent years Brasil have dominated (though it won't be the same this year), there is no fu[king way the CB is harder. Just think about it. All the top Braslian teams are in the Libertadores, add that to the top Argentinian, Mexican, uruguayan, paraguayan teams (which are better than the mid-table to bottom table teams in the CB) than there is no question which competition is harder
yes it never happens..nowadays. Meanwhile you include Boca, Independiente and other teams. The other teams who you included won the Libertadores and leagues back in the days when it was an enitre season. Nowadays brasilian teams can't win both at the same time, and niether can all the other teams. Boca in 2000,2001 and 2003 weren't able to win the league at the same times as the Libertadores Also, you forget that the Brasilian teams don't start their league until the Libertadores is already in the quarters, so they don't have to play league games while the other teams from other countries do. Instead they are playing those 'state championships' that are pretty irrelevant. So perhaps that could be a reason why the Brasilian teams can't win the Brasilerao and the Copa Libertadores at the same time
Well, in Argentina it NEVER happened either. The closest it's gotten to was River winning the Supercopa and the local championship in 1997, and Boca winning the Copa Sudamericana and the local championship in 2005. Other than that, no Argentine team has ever won the Copa Libertadores and Argentine league in the same season. Either way, what's your point?
means that is more easy to brazilian teams win libertadores than win our own domestic league. argentina win these championships in the past. in the last 15 years we win 8, and do 12 finals. look to brazilian league numbers, if you count participation and number of titles, our teams win more libertadores per participation than our national league. what this mean? mean that our internal contenders are stronger than our south american contenders. and we are 50% of population, 50% of area and 50% of PIB of south america, any competition that give to us less than 50% of spots is already unbalanced. we import european mode of give spots and disrespect our own geography. in any other league in the world the big teams dominate their own league more than any international competitions, with some little exceptions. and its a fact that brazilian teams don't care about libertadores until the 90's, we earn more money in our domestic league until 90's. we are playng the finals of state championships, and they aren't irrelevant, much of then is bigger than all south american leagues in exception argentina. flamengo play against botafogo the rio final and defensor, ask for any flamenguista if they give less importance to one or another game. ask for them if they could accept loose the state championship to have more chances in libertadores.
I don't get how you come up with the conclusion that winning is easy for Brasilians. Boca Juniors 5 Libertadores in 20 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 4 22 leage titles in 110 competitions --> Ratio: 1 every 5 Velez Sarsfield 1 Libertadores in 10 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 10 6 leage titles in 110 competitions --> Ratio: 1 every 18.33 Argentinos Juniors 1 Libertadores in 2 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 2 2 League Titles in 110 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 55 Independiente 7 Libertadores in 18 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 2.57 14 league titles in 110 competitions --> Ratio: 1 every 7.86 Racing Club 1 Libertadores in 6 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 6 7 league titles in 110 competitions --> Ratio: 1 every 15.7 Estudiantes 3 Libertadores in 8 tries --> Ratio: 1 every 2.6666 4 league titles in 110 competitions --> Ratio: 1 every 27.5 So, I guess the Argentinian league is the hardest competition based on your own ridiculous claims. In fact every Argentinian team has had a better or equal success in the Copa Libertadores except for River Plate, Rosario Central, Newell's, San Lorenzo, Ferro and Huracan. So only 11 of 17 Argentinian teams that participated have better success in the Libertadores than in the league. That is 64.7% Meanwhile, Corinthians, Palmieras, Atletico Mineiro, Atletico Paranaense, Bahia, Botafago, Coritiba, Fluminense, Guarani, and Sport Recife all have better success ratio in Brasilerao as opposed to the Copa Libertadores. So, only 17 of 27 teams that have participated in the Libertadores have a better success rate than in their league play. That is 62.9% In conclusion, according to your 'facts' and using the same ridiculous way of deriving to a conclusion, the Argentinian league is clearly more competitive than the Brasilierao and the Copa Libertadores (jejeje foiled by facts and numbers) this is a joke and no reasonable person (except for biased braslians) would ever think that this is fair or objective when all else fails, come up with an excuse a la Flamengo so which one is it?? The state championships are ridiculous. Most of the top teams field youth teams and the Copa do Brasil doesn't even have teams from the Libertadores in it (thus limiting their fixtures more so that they have a better chance in the Libertadores.
these teams not play all argentine championships. san lorenzo for example play much time in lower division. and the numbers that you show confirm my afirmation, you see that the teams even being a balance in libertadores, have a unbalance in domestic league. the league is totally dominated by independiente, boca and river (61% of all titles in 3 teams). in brazil the top 3 teams have 36%, you only reach 61% if you pick top 5 (58%). then the argentine league is for the top 3, much more easy to brazilian top 3, by the way we don't have a top 3, 5 teams are tied in title record of 4 titles. the yes, for boca and river (and independiente historycally) win argentina domestic league is much more easy than são paulo or vasco win brazilian league. but to eferro or argentinos juniors is much more difficult win than cruzeiro or atlético-pr. in 36 years we had 17 different champions in 110 leagues you had 14 different champions we never repeat a final or a 1st-2nd sequence, never a team win 3 or more titles in sequence, only 2 times 2 teams altenate the title 4 times (the record): flamengo-gremio-flamengo-flamengo in 80-81-82-83 and vasco-corinthians-corinthians-vasco in 97-98-99-00; in argentina river-boca, boca-river is extremely normal, and a alternation of 6 or more teams in winning is much more common. no i'm not put teams who not win libertadores for a simple reason, they aren't big teams in international competitions. you can't use a historical analisys for a "one shot" teams. for that teams, win domestic league will always harder than a libertadores for a simple reason: they play all their history being suck. if they mount a "all star" teams for some reason (like chelsea in england) they could win easily a internaitonal title as they can win a domestic league. is, matematically a complete new team in comportament. no, it's a reality, they never will risk a state championship to get more luck in libertadores, never will field a reserve team in a final stage, they could do it if they are in a confortable position in state championship and have risk in libertadores. its not true, all teams field the same players to state championships who they field in other competitions. see the team of santos or gremio in each competition (state championship and libertadores). inter try field reserves in gauchão (a 3rd or 4th stronger state championship) and not qualify to play-offs, flamengo filed reserves in second stage of RJ championship because they already qualified to final stage. copa do brasil not field the libertadores teams only in the last years, and copa do brasil give only 1 spot in 5 from brasil (or 6 hahahhaha). and, finally in never compare libertadores with copa do brasil or state championships, only state championships with other leagues (do you think, for example bolivia or peru have a league with teams like são paulo, santos, palmeiras, corintgians, guarani, são caetano?) if their NT play the RJ or SP state championship they will be only other contender and maybe not even favorite.
dude, if it wasnt for your exportation, or maybe it's exploitation, of player's your league would have zero dollars... Copa Libertadores is a very well paid tournament considering it's not an 18+ game season, there's no comparison. Corinthians paid some ridiculous amount for Tevez in a deal that many still consider 'shady' at best... to be honest with you, before the 90s who even cared about the Brazilina league... trust me no one was missing your league of 100+ teams and 20 trophies ... If anything, Copa Libertadores has given the Brazilian league some bragging rights.
no ones cares? well, if you pick the invites of brazilian teams to international friendilies you will see that care much about our league, even before we have a league. if anyone care about our league, why we export roberto, falcão, zico, socrates, rivelino, paulo cesar caju, and many other stars from this time? we are 50% of south america population, if we care about, 50% of south america population care about. if no one care, why a lot of brazilian teams are considered the best teams of all time by fifa and other medias? vasco's expresso da vitória, palmeiras da academia, botafogo de garrincha, santos de pelé, máquina tricolor of fluminense, inter do tri, and many others teams. if we win more money focusing in domestic league and feel more competitive in our soccer we need to prove that, off course. we have 8 different teams that win libertadores, a record, even only considerating this compeitition a big competition since 90's (and in the last 15 yerar we win 8). and nothing could be better to us than focuses in our league to our soccer, for that reason we are 5 times world champions, every city have big teams, and form talent who always have oportunity. its a fact that argentina have more titles overrall, but its a fact that they consider libertadores the biggest tournament of his calendar since 60's and we since 90's. if overall numbers in this competition give superiority to argentine teams, this mean nothing to compare the teams, a comparison since 90's is more accurate in that question.
its too late to go over all the $hit that you used to reply my other post but think about it. the top teams in brasil make the Copa libertadores. The top teams in argentina (who are better than 6-10 in brasil) make the libertadores. The top from uruguay and paraguay (who are better than the 11-17th teams in brasil) make the copa libertadores. The top from colombia (who are better than the 18th to 21th team in brasil) make the libertadores. you get the picture here??
i know what you talk about, but to win libertadores you need to win the 2nd, 3rd, 4th from each country, obviouly no? you have with bad lucky 4-6 hard games. what competition you need to win or win more than são paulo (win 06), santos (best overrall group stage 04, 07) , inter (06 champion), CAP (second place in 05), dumb ideia is thinking that these teams, and others with better training centers, payroolls, tv deals, sponsorships will "turn to a suck team" only because can't qualify to libertadores. stay on top here is hard, because we d on't have 2 or 3 big teams, we have 12 teams and other "new" big teams, for these teams, nothing but the troophy is wanted. only 4-6 teams in brasileirão enter in competition with the project of fighting for libertadores spot or not be relegate. in this competition: and 2 of these go to libertadores in last years. 2004 - 4/5 brazilians in round of 16 - cruzeiro, santos, são paulo, são caetano. 2005 - 4/5 brazilians in round of 16 - santos, atlético-pr, são paulo, palmeiras 2006 - 5/6 in round of 16 - são paulo, corinthians, goiás, palmeiras, internacional 2007 - 5/6 in round of 16 - são paulo, santos, flamengo, grêmio, paraná in the last 4 libertadores: 18/22 brazilian teams go to R-16. 11 different teams. argentina 12/21, 7 different teams. mexico 10/12, 7 different teams. w qualify 50% more to round of 16!!!! mexico with 60% of argentina spots do almost the same!!! do you got my picture now?
i read all the comments about who's league is better and who's got the best teams and who's won the most CL but.... at this point.... i don't see the point, maybe i had to be born in brasil to understand why their local tourney is more difficult to win than libertadores, which by the way i don't think that's the point required in this post. it just makes me think their local tourney is more important than libertadores but still... they want to win it and i've noticed 'em really happy when they do.
You mean San Lorenzo de Almagro? If I recall correctly, since proffesionalism started San Lorenzo spent all of one year out of the top division. They descended in 1981 and returned to the top in 1982.
i mean teams who had bee relegated, in that cases the number proportion grows up. off course to brazilians win libertadores is a great honor, but for most is so honorable than win domestic league. obviously a sp fan will say that libertadores is more important, a flamengo fan that brasileirão is more, as gremio or cruzeiro fan will say that copa do brasil is a great competition or santos fan that taça brasil was a legitime national championship. but try to imagine if: portugal, spain, france, italy, greece,holland, switzerland, poland, austria and all ex-yugoslavia countries play in the same domestic league, they are aproximately 50% of area, population and GDP of europe like brazil is here. you think that this "imaginary" country will care more or less to champions league? teams like porto, benfica,valencia, aek, lyon propably would qualify less than 5 international competitions like fluminense, sport, bahia, atlético-pr, paysandu, teams with more suporters than uruguay population.