Qatar Nights - The Winter World Cup Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by ArsenalJake, Oct 23, 2022.

  1. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There's a significant difference in the nature of the polity that emerges. In pre-colonial empires (e.g., Rome, the various Arab/Islamic states, the Mongols, the Ottomans), the impetus was achieving political control over a people/region such that conquered peoples became imperial subjects and, depending on the nature of the polity, could do well for themselves - Africans became emperors of Rome, and Albanians became Grand Viziers of the Ottoman Empire, to name but two examples. That's not to say Empires were a good thing - they weren't, and periods of conquest were horrifying times to live in.

    But the colonial empires were so much worse: they existed to extract the resources of their colonies (and/or transfer their own people into their colonies, a phenomenon called settler colonialism, which is even worse), and did so at the expense of the local population: by some estimates the British extracted $45 trillion (in today's dollars) worth of resources from the subcontinent. The most frequently used tool to subjugate the local population was extreme violence: by some estimates the British Empire killed 100 million people between 1880 and 1920 in India alone. And the British were even worse in Africa. That's a death toll that rivals Hitler.

    And the British might not even be the worst of the lot: under King Leopold, the Congo Free State setup a system of coerced labor to produce rubber. Hard numbers are difficult because Leopold destroyed all his records, but estimates of the death toll go as high as 15 million people over a period of about 20 years.
     
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  2. cooper7d7

    cooper7d7 Member

    Feb 7, 2001
    CT
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. Super Llama

    Super Llama Member+

    May 21, 2006
    Seattle
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Disregarding all these correct points that make the point I’m about to make moot but: Al-Andalus wasn’t founded or conquered by Moroccans at all lol. Hispania was conquered by the Umayyads, an Arabic caliphate. Makes no sense to pin the Cordoban caliphate on Morocco or Moroccans. Meanwhile, European colonization of Morocco nominally ended less than 70 years ago.
     
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  4. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The people who carried out the conquest were Berber, though the subsequent Umayyad caliphate was of course Arab.
     
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  5. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Weren't Berbers indigenous to an area of North Africa that included Morocco?
     
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  6. Super Llama

    Super Llama Member+

    May 21, 2006
    Seattle
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Welll yeah okay, to be fair, as I'm reading the wiki about it (lol), the initial invasion was Berbers but it was like 1500 guys, and more of a raiding party than anything, and it was subsequently reinforced by an Arab force by the first guy's liege. So idk, ultimately the invasion campaigns in Spain were primarily carried out by Arabs, even if the beachhead was established by Berbers.
     
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  7. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    and giroud was in the middle of the 1 & 2. :D
     
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  8. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Giroud was and is a great player.
     
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  9. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I’m not as versed in history as either you or mebeSajid. The borders of the country of Morocco were defined by those that last colonized Northwest Africa. The Berbers native to the area suffered a series of settler colonizations, including by the Arab’s (Umayyads) that subsequently colonized Spain. Also please note that I identified Spain’s colonizers as Arab, not Moroccan. But the colonizers did arrive in Spain via NW Africa.
     
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  10. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Namibia
    This is what I am finding so stupid about the Giroud/False 9 discourse

    Supposedly teams are only just realising it is better to play with a giroud type player upfront in international football because reasons

    But of course if Germany had actually had Giroud he would have played! The success of Giroud up top for France has been obvious for 6 years! This is a borderline elite player who is now a bit too old for a top club but completely fine for a short tournament. Few teams have someone that good....
     
  11. DaPrince84

    DaPrince84 Member+

    Aug 22, 2001
    MD
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
     
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  12. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Somewhat correct. Tariq ibn Ziyad's initial force is typically said to number around 7k, and it wasn't really a beachhead: his force got all the way to Asturias.

    Hell of a digression though.

    The point that I'm making is that not every conquest is colonialism, and that's even more true for settler colonialism. The Umayyad conquests weren't examples of colonialism for the reasons I explained above, and they certainly weren't settler colonialism (and couldn't be because there weren't enough Arabs to actually settle elsewhere).
     
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  13. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In yesterday's NYTimes this photo of Vini Jr really caught my eye. In the actual paper it was in monochrome, which was even more effective I thought.

    To me it looked almost like art from the Futurism period a hundred years ago. But it also is so good in conveying the parts of the body that do the high frequency work when running...

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Tonerl

    Tonerl Member+

    Arsenal
    May 10, 2006
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some of this is disturbing, but mostly it’s just very funny. But, for real, what is with the fake passports? I kind of get the EU ones if it is about securing a work permit, but why would Ronaldinho want or need a fake Paraguay passport?
     
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  15. Bluto11

    Bluto11 The sky is falling!

    May 16, 2003
    Chicago, IL
    The first invasion, while led by an Arab, was made up of mostly locals. There is a story the Count of Ceuta (still Spanish by the way) allied with the local governor to get back at his liege. The later invasion was backed by the Umayyads. Lets not forget the kingdom at the time was Visigoths who were a Germanic tribe that the Romans had granted land around Toulouse who then gradually moved into Hispania. The movement of people in the past boggles my mind. Southern Spain is ********ing awesome and everyone should go visit. I'd love to be sitting in the Mirador de San Nicolas sipping some vermouth watching the Alhambra change colors in the sunset right now.
     
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  16. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I intended to respond to your earlier post last night, but decided to take some time to think about my response. We are much further removed from the Roman, Arab/Islamic, Mongol, and Ottoman Empires than we are from what was generally 16th through 20th century colonialism. So we are more familiar with the sins of the more recent “empires”. While the British occupation of its colonies was exceptionally bloody, Roman occupation of the Middle East, Carthage, and England, may have been equally bloody if they had had modern weapons and larger populations under their thumb. Only having taken one course in history (Russian History) in college, some 50+ years ago, I’m less familiar with the atrocities, at least during conquest of the Arab, Mongol, and Ottoman empires.

    We agree that, in large part, colonialism is characterized by exploitation of a colony’s resources. I have read that Roman expansion was driven in part by their quest for gold and that the Celts in Western Europe may have been targeted because their gold jewelry craftsmanship suggested they had direct access to sources of gold. So other than the scale of the gold and silver resources available in Spain’s colonies, I’m not sure I see this as much different than Spains exploitation of gold and silver resources in the Americas.

    Finally you cited the granting of citizenship to conquered peoples in the earlier empires. I believe France, at least nominally, granted citizenship to the people in their colonies. As an aside, Napoleon was born on the Island of Corsica, not long after it was annexed by France. Does that make their stewardship of their colonies any more benign than other European colonial powers at the time?

    From my perspective the differences between Empires and Colonial Empires are next to non existent. Both are formed by bloody conquest, both exploit natural resources, and both put down rebellions with bloody reprisals.
     
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  17. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
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  18. ArsenalJake

    ArsenalJake Member+

    Feb 11, 2013
    Charlotte
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's only fair to post who was in the French 11:

    Debuchy, Nasri, et. al.

    talksport-line-up-predicated-49450e5b-7ca2-49f4-a881-3b2fb147021e.png
     
  19. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    we're still signing mexes, right?

    i genuinely thought debuchy was solid before he got here. he never managed to established himself after getting hurt which was ashame.
     
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  20. ArsenalJake

    ArsenalJake Member+

    Feb 11, 2013
    Charlotte
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm with you on Debuchy. I remember thinking I'd at least heard of him :ROFLMAO:
     
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  21. ArsenalMetro

    ArsenalMetro Member+

    United States
    Aug 5, 2008
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I completely forgot that Debuchy was at Arsenal. And for 3.5 years!
     
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  22. ArsenalJake

    ArsenalJake Member+

    Feb 11, 2013
    Charlotte
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm pretty sure he Squallaci'd his last 2 years here. :thumbsdown:
     
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  23. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    if i'm not mistaken i vaguely remember him looking decent in preseason then got hurt in that bullshit play on the sideline - i'm still pissed about that - and just never looking right for the rest of the season. then got wally pipp'ed by bellerin.
     
  24. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arnaoutovic, prick, shoved him into the ad boards near the goal line and he separated his shoulder, IIRC.
     
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  25. Bluto11

    Bluto11 The sky is falling!

    May 16, 2003
    Chicago, IL
    I'll never forget Squillaci, if only because he looked like Glass Joe from Punch-Out
     
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