PSG vs Marseille [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by gold4278, Sep 14, 2020 at 2:52 PM.

  1. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thought I would see some comments here, but the PSG vs Marseille national derby had some drama with 14 yellow cards and 5 red cards all coming from one incident at the end. How do you guys think the center handled this situation. Is it the correct procedure to show yellows to both players and then reds to both like that? Seems that Neymar is saying that his red card was based on racism directed at him from opposing player. He tried to tell this to 4th official before leaving the field.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYUf6r68CPg
     
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  2. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I saw two or three "highlights" clips on this game. Maybe "low lights" would be a better description. A number of thoughts:
    When Neymar was getting into it verbally about a minute before things blew up, it appeared that the referee did not do anything. IMHO, this proved to be the wrong approach. At this point in the game, a minute left in time added on, they were not going to decide to 'just play the game' and drop it. And I fully understand the possible referee mindset at this point. "It's almost over. Let's just get it done with no more cards.' Been there. Done that. Didn't work for me, either.

    the foul that set it off was clearly deserving of a caution. The way it was done left no pretense that he was attempting to do anything other than foul the opponent. Again, IMHO, a very hard whistle, quick yellow and then three tweets to end the game. EXCEPT that white came down on red, who was already on the ground. I don't think that part in itself was intentional. But red took it as too much of a 'f... you' move, particularly given that white was about to win their first game at PSG in 10 years. There was absolutely no reason for the foul. I can't tell from the clips, but it didn't look like the referee was immediately involved, physically or verbally. "Easy up, guys, easy up!" The players need to know that you're going to take care of things, so they don't have to.

    The referee then backed away to just observe. I guess triangle of control is a USSF concept, but I don't think he saw the head butt to his far left, so he didn't get far enough away to keep everyone in view. Likewise, AR1 seemed slow to get out there. There is a moment in these kinds of incidents where the referee can tamp down the situation with a very loud, very visible, personal involvement. Only a moment, though. If you miss that moment, however you have to just back off and observe when the numbers get to the point they did in this game.

    The final thing I noted was that the referee moved in to give cards while there was still scuffling going on, again, out to his left. You have to get the players under control before giving cards. You look ineffective if you show someone a card and then, say, their opponent comes in to deliver some vigilante justice and the fight resumes.

    Unfortunately, over the years, I've had enough experience with fights and mass confrontations that I think I'm pretty good at handling them and, more importantly, preventing them. Not perfect, though, by any means. And that's a good, final point. If you are the referee in this kind of situation, there's going to be more happening that you can possibly see. Don't feel bad that you may have missed a red player shoving a white player over there, because the important stuff is the kicking, punching, head butting. Get the first three guys. They're the ones who made this a mess. And, if you aren't at the pro level where you know all of the players by name and face, be sure to get their number.
     
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  3. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    Exactly! These are the situations that call for what Bob Evans named "Beneficial Heresies" to keep
    control of a game like this. Others called them "street smarts."

    PH
     
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  4. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Any statistics on whether the 19 cards is the highest ever in Ligue 1? In the top European leagues? I can't remember a game with this many cards at least in recent times.

    For comparison, the WC 2010 Final saw 15 cards awarded by Webb (14 yellow, 1 red), Barcelona's 5-0 thrashing of Real Madrid had 14 cards from Iturralde Gonzalez (13 yellow, 1 red), while Chelsea's 2-2 draw with Tottenham saw Clattenburg show the yellow card 12 times. Only the infamous 2006 battle between Netherlands and Portugal surpassed this match, with 20 cards (16 yellow, 4 red) handed out by Ivanov.
     
  5. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I think the referee was a bit green to handle the classico. He struggled to keep things under control for most of the game. Bad move from the Direction Nationale de l'Arbitrage to select him.

    On the Neymar incident, he told the referee once earlier in the game about the racist words. I don't think the FFF has a protocol for incidents like this unlike in case of technical error for example, where you have to put a reserve as as soon as the ball goes out of play.

    So incident not dealt with and later Neymar punches Gonzalez and get sent off.

    There is also a Di Maria allegation of spitting on Gonzalez. A reminder that Di Maria tested positive for Covid recently.

    The racist incident if proven carries a 10 games ban and the spitting incident a 6 games ban.
     
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  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  7. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was also thinking there could be locational issues with assigning certain referees, like if Turpin was from Paris or Marseille, he couldn't work their games. I wasn't sure if this logic would be applied or not.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Turpin has refereed both teams in the past, so I presume he would be clear.
     
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  9. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    This fixture has a terrible history with regard to supporter violence as well. Deaths of supporters in the last 10 years.
     
  10. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    I think that when you have a match like the one that just occurred, you almost have to put your best official on the return leg. I get what you're saying about UEFA assignments, but if you're going to have another bad event you have to at least be able to say you did everything as a league to manage it.

    I would also imagine someone of Turpin's caliber would look at that game and also want to take it. As we say often on this forum, referees are competitive as well. I'm sure Turpin looks at a game like that and says he's the man for the job (and also knows what it could mean for his future FIFA/UEFA assignments if he does a great job).
     
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  11. Law5

    Law5 Member+

    Mar 24, 2005
    Beaverton OR
    I agree with RefIADad on this. If you don't put Turpin on the game to protect him, what is that saying about your opinion of his skills? 'We know he isn't capable of handling this game but we want him to get good UEFA assignments.'

    Maybe this isn't true because it's a pro game, but, in my experience, the next time those teams meet, everybody is going to have the players under the microscope. The players know that. If they misbehave again, they're going to get even longer suspensions, as repeat offenders. At least for the next game, the players behave and whatever referee gets the game will look like a genius. And maybe the league sends a message by sending that referee, the one who just doesn't care how many cards he gives and if we end the game because one team is down to six players, well, too bad. That's their problem. Send in Mongo.
     
  12. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    The first example I think of for a situation like this is the England-Argentina game in the 2002 World Cup. You have the Falklands. You have the Beckham send-off for kicking Simeone in 1998. You have two of the marquee teams in world soccer playing on its biggest stage.

    Who was in the middle? Pierluigi Collina.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Look, we won't know 5 months, so not worth too much time speculating. But let's not pretend like this is a no-brainer. We are talking about a league match that could go incredibly wrong. One of hundreds of league matches. A bad performance could scupper an appointment to the UCL Final or even EURO Final... something that Turpin has positioned himself for after about 3 strong years of work. And he's the first French referee positioned as such for maybe 3 decades. So you risk years of hard work just to prove he can handle a single game that he could be assigned (and probably has been assigned) multiple times any year? There are obvious reasons not to assign him this match.

    Sure, maybe you give Turpin the toughest match because he's your best referee. But there are alternatives. Bastien is a top UEFA referee, too. Think of it like this: there's a reason Mark Geiger didn't get the Brazil v Argentina friendly when it was in the US. This could be the same type of thing.
     
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  14. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Also Chelsea - Barcelona in 2005 after Frisk sent off Drogba and Mourinho accused him of meeting with Rijkaard, resulting in Frisk's retirement. The temperature going into the second leg was incredibly high. Collina was there.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, and it was a World Cup. Not a French league match. This isn't the same. Collina was already selected for (his second) World Cup as one of the top referees going into the tournament, so he got the marquee match.

    Turpin can (and will) get domestic cup finals or semifinals this year, major matches to decide the title and UCL spots, relegation battles, and derbies. He'll get top matches throughout a 9-month season. The point here is that he doesn't need to be assigned the one that could be a powder keg with tons of media attention. He could, yes. But he doesn't need to.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll give up after this (I hope). But again, in that situation Collina already had the World Cup Final, the UCL Final, and the UEFA Cup Final. Not only was Collina that natural pick, there was also ZERO risk for him.

    There is a ton of risk for Turpin on a match like this. That's my point. He's on the precipice of big things at the continental and international level after years of hard work. His performances in Ligue 1 to this date have got him there. So, sure, he could likely handle this well. But is it worth the risk? That's the calculus that French officials will need to weigh. They may either believe they want or need to give him the match. But it's also not crazy to think they would want to avoid him having to face this in February just as the UEFA season is restarting.
     
  17. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Point taken about Bastien. If you have another elite UEFA referee, you could put him on the return leg. We obviously know of Turpin (and I think he's outstanding), but I don't know that much about Bastien.

    I would imagine a corollary would be Italy before Rocchi retired. You had Orsato and Rocchi, so you could put either one on a match of this temperature and you'd have a Champions League final-caliber referee on the match.

    The flip side of that would probably be Slovenia, where I would imagine Skomina would be the one and only referee who could work a match like this in his country.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Vincic.

    And also remember that oftentimes the top international referee isn't as well-liked within the domestic league.

    Geiger. Taylor. Mateu Lahoz. Rodriguez. The list goes on. For any of us to assume that, let's say, Skomina is the natural #1 within Slovenia or Turpin is the natural #1 within France doesn't necessarily make it true. There are additional factors here in addition to being the top international referee within a country.

    Oh, and my understanding is Skomina (outside the pandemic) spends more time in Saudi Arabia refereeing than in Slovenia. So that would be another factor to your specific example.
     
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  19. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    PSG had another player sent off against Metz to make it four red cards in the last two games.
     
  20. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    I think we are perhaps getting away from the most important point about this game, and it has little to do with Turpin, Collina, Skomina etc. or the appointment of Brisard to this game, which should have been perfectly fine.

    The point is that a suitably-qualified, experienced Referee was appointed to a game that was well within his capabilities to manage and "land safely". But, for whatever reason, he failed to do so.

    So, the "learning" is that if we don't manage a game from the first minute, if we don't recognise when behaviour is starting to slip, if we don't "feel" when players are starting to get agitated, if we don't control early signs of dissent, any game, at any level, can rapidly slide, or in this case plummet, out of control very quickly. And, at that point, there is little you can do to recover it.

    If I was the Observer at this game, I would scarcely even talk about the 90+ minute melee. I would be asking about all the "signs" that were missed from very early in the match and the Referee's failure to identify, and deal, with them. Even if he had blown the whistle a minute earlier and the melee had not taken place, those questions would still have needed answered.
     
  21. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Sporting KC
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Which is why I do feel like the edicts (written or unwritten) to keep a low profile and manage a game without cards at the higher levels does hurt referees. We saw this in the most recent Gold Cup final. Escobar (I think that's his name) didn't use his cards at all, and the USA-Mexico game was a powder keg. Quite honestly, I'm surprised that game didn't end up with some sort of significant confrontation near the end of the game. I think he got lucky that there was some handbags with McKennie, and that was pretty much it.

    Had he rightly carded Jozy early for a pretty nasty challenge (clear yellow, case could have been made for red), I think that game goes a lot more smoothly. I get that it's entertainment and a spectacle at the professional levels, but referees still need to sanction misconduct.
     
  22. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Worth noting Collina issued just 2 yellows in the 2002 WC final - both in the first 10 minutes of the game.
     
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  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Yes, this is very unusual - I don't recall seeing it in any other match!
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not sure why it's worth it. Seems like a tangent from a tangent! But if we are going down that path, the next tangent is that he missed (or chose to ignore) a pretty straightforward and obvious SFP in that match, as well. But that's just Example 4,671,126 in the "errors of omission are forgotten or excused in ways that errors of commission never will be." Video on this page and @Mikael_Referee can attest to his analysis of the call if he'd like.

    https://wc02refs.blogspot.com/2020/08/64-gerbra-collina.html
     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is sarcasm, right?
     

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