Proposing a new expansion/pro/rel format

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by arkjayback, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I want to preface this by saying this is a long post, if you're only going to read part of it and nitpick, please just ignore it. Yes, this is yet another pro/rel thread but this is not meant for a pro/rel debate, but simply if this could work in that event.(I believe that the league is best suited for a 24 team league and that is the format I am going with, with 16 second division teams, and I almost put this in the expansion thread, but I realized it had more to do with pro/rel than actual expansion. I'm not arguing for it to happen anytime soon, I just love the possibility of MLS getting teams into so many possible soccer markets.)

    The format is based on the idea that the financial aspects of the franchises and the league will determine everything in this process.

    First off, in a 24 team team league, conferences/divisions will be essential to manage the schedules. MLS is not going to be playing a 46 game season. And here are the hypothetical teams(the team names are just the ones I would like to see the most or just random):

    West---------------------Midwest--------------North------------------East
    Chivas USA-------------Colorado Rapid--------Chicago Fire--------------DC United
    Las Vegas SC------------FC Dallas------------Columbus Crew----------Miami FC
    Los Angeles Galaxy-----Houston Dynamo-----Montreal Impact--------New York Cosmos (;))
    Portland Timbers-----Kansas City Wizards--New England Revolution---New York Red Bulls
    Seattle Sounders FC----Real Salt Lake--------Toronto FC------------Philadelphia Union
    Vancouver Whitecaps--St. Louis United-----Twin Cities United--------Puerto Rico Islanders

    Season format: 2 games against each team in own division: 10 games. 1 games versus the rest of the teams in the league: 18. That's 28 games with any addition of rivalry games or something that the league may desire.

    A different format of pro/rel could just be regionally. In a second division, MLS would be worried about the costs of a team recently relegated. To help manage those lower costs, the 16 team division can be broken down into 4 regions of 4 with 4 games against each team in division: 12 games. 2 games each for the next division: 8. 1 game against the other 8 teams. That is a 28 game season with 24 of those games being on their own side of the country. Only 4 away games would have to be played on long road trips. The 16 teams:

    West-------------------Midwest-----------North------------------East
    Albuquerque AC-------Austin Aztex----Cleveland City Stars---Birmingham Club
    Sacramento SC-------Omaha Town-----Detroit FC----------Carolina Railhawks
    San Diego FC--------San Antonio SC----Ottawa FC----------Charleston Battery
    San Jose Quakes(;))--Tulsa FC------Rochester Rhinos------Nashville SC
    (yes I know there are plenty of other cities such as Indianapolis, Atlanta, Buffalo, and Tampa Bay could be here as well. These teams best illustrate the regional groupings)

    Here the league is presented with a plethora of options for promotion/relegation decisions. It can simply go off of finish in the table. The bottom two teams in each Major League Soccer division could fight for their spot in a playoff and the top two teams in Minor League Soccer (MiLS) divisions could have a playoff.

    Either way, the team being relegated is able to not worry as much about its finances as the travel costs will be greatly reduced.

    In MiLS the salary cap would be significantly lower than MLS. I know these won't be the numbers by the time pro/rel might happen, but I will use them for now.

    A Major League Soccer team could have a 30 man roster with a salary cap of $4 million. An MiLS team could have a 24 man roster with a salary cap of $2 million. BUT, neither a recently relegated team nor a recently promoted team would have their salary cap change. Instead, it would stay in line with the league they left (promoted MiLS teams salary cap would go up with the rest of the league, while a relegated MLS team's salary cap would be frozen.)

    Each team would receive 2 years to either be promoted again or relegated again. If a promoted team stayed in MLS past the 2 year deadline, then its salary cap would be adjusted to that of the rest of MLS. If a relegated MLS team stayed in MiLS longer than 2 seasons, then its salary cap would be reduced to that of MiLS.


    Both by managing the salary caps and regional divisions, it softens the blow for potentially relegated MLS teams. BUT, it gives a huge advantage to MLS franchises. A relegated MLS team should theoretically be stronger than the rest of its division and should be able to gain promotion within the 2 year time frame. Also, a promoted MiLS team would be at a huge disadvantage and the rest of the teams in their division should theoretically be better.

    That may be the type of compromise that could eventually convince MLS owners to move to pro/rel.

    p.s., sorry for bringing up this subject yet again.
     
  2. vtron

    vtron Member

    Aug 16, 2007
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You bored man?
     
  3. LordRobin

    LordRobin Member+

    Sep 1, 2006
    Akron, OH
    Club:
    Cleveland C. S.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I applaud your willingness to address the "rel" side of the pro/rel debate. Too many deluded pro/rel supporters don't take their argument any further than "promotion is way awesome, so we should have pro/rel!".

    That being said, it's hard to see the MLS owners, either the ones we have now or those in the future, going for this. You've softened the blow of relegation greatly, but there is still a blow. Unless there's a major upside to pro/rel that more than balances out the financial hit from being relegated, it's never going to happen in the US. And I just can't see what that upside would be.

    (And the excitement of promotion is not an upside. All the MLS owners are already in the top flight.)

    ------RM
     
  4. Black Tide

    Black Tide Member+

    Mar 8, 2007
    the 8th Dimension
    I am sure you have some sonderful new idea as to how this would work. And frankly I do not care... Pro/Rel is a myth in terms of keeping mediority out and excellence in. The reality is most teams that are promoted are just as bad if not worse than the teams that were there the previous season. This is even more true with the amount of private funding that is being pumped into the leagues around the world with no expectation of actually having to have an operational profit to cover said capital investment. Most cases if things continure the way they are (though I think it is unstainable), would be better served to eliminate it all together to allow the bottom teams to to continually cash in on tv and sponsorship revenues to at least give them a chance to compete. I say this because I could do with out a repeate of Derby county, and methinks that will happen more and more...
     
  5. Lucho305

    Lucho305 Member

    Inter Miami CF, Junior de Barranquilla
    United States
    Jul 9, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very interesting idea, i think that can work... Although im not a fan of divisions i think your setup is great I would definitely go for something like this... Great Idea... But unfortunately the way people think, they dont like taking risks and really do doubt any pro/rel in the next 5-10 years...
     
  6. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do too. I can't see this anytime soon. I hate putting timeframes on things, but I wouldn't think something like this would even have the slightest chance of happening before 2020.
     
  7. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dude, Emerging Modern America class is just boring.
     
  8. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    The overall idea seems pretty good. I would change two small things- im not against divisions but i dont want an nfl/mlb type set up but i would be fine with and east west conference set up but i think if it could be avoided i would stay away from conferences. Second, i like the idea of the two year freeze for the relegated team but instead of the team immediately dropping to 2 million i would start to bring the salary down gradually after the two year mark. A decrease of 200k per year would work because if you think about it the relegated team is going to spend and try as much as they can to get back into MLS. And also at 200k a year the relegated teams will retain an advantage being that they would have to stay relegated 10 years before falling under the 2million cap
     
  9. pankfish

    pankfish Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    All of the minor league teams would have to pay the same expansion fee as the mls teams have to pay when joining the league. Are franchises going to pay 40 million dollars to get be in Minor League Soccer?
     
  10. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First off, how do you know this? You can look 20 years into the future and tell us what will happen?

    Secondly, the whole premise of the proposal was to make some type of compromise for the existing owners. If the league gets to the point where it can have a 24 team league and then bring in a 16 for pro/rel, then this is the type of compromise that may convince a majority of the owners.

    10-15 years in the future, the good franchises will have made back their investment, and this type of compromise could get the owners to allow pro/rel.
     
  11. scaryice

    scaryice Member

    Jan 25, 2001
    Here is how pro/rel will work, if it ever happens. You can argue specific numbers, but I feel like this is a solid, realistic road map.

    • MLS gets to 24 teams.
    • MLS brings in 4 new expansion teams.
    • MLS takes the bottom 4 teams and pairs them with those expansion teams to create an 8 team second division to go along with the 20 team first division.
    • All new expansion teams start in the second division, as it slowly gets larger.
     
  12. DancingKevin

    DancingKevin Member

    Sep 14, 2008
    Colorado Springs
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey look everybody another useless thread about pro/reg in MLS. I am so thru with this it will never happen here in the USA and you know what thats perfectly fine. We are the United States not Europe and we don't have to copy them.We have a different sport culture than they do. Our system to decide a champion is fine what we need to do is make the league better in other ways because again no owner or potential owners in the USA is going to go for that system here. Why pay out so much money to be sent down to the lower league the next year and those who are promoted spend a ton of money to get promoted but still aren't good enough to compete with the Manchester's, Liverpools, and the Arsenals that throw such large amounts of money at players and get sent back down to the lower league again and lose all that investment. So please quit wasting everybodys time here with this old worn out argument!:rolleyes:
     
  13. Qdog

    Qdog Member

    May 8, 2002
    Andalusia
    Club:
    Sevilla FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is BigSoccer...I reserve the right to nitpick at will. ;)

    You might have the numbers about right (40 teams), but you'll probably see two major leagues like baseball more than a minor league system.
     
  14. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's why I would rather see pro/rel. I just think two competing leagues won't really benefit anyone, then eventually they will go to pro/rel.
     
  15. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    *sigh*
     
  16. FijiUnited

    FijiUnited Member+

    Feb 21, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And if you don't like it, you can GIT OUT!:)
     
  17. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I would start with two conferences - East and West.

    12 in each conference = total of 24 clubs.

    Home/Away in conference and 1 game out of conference = 34 games.
     
  18. Jayhawk1106

    Jayhawk1106 New Member

    Jan 31, 2008
    Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just simply made a signaure for topics such as this. :)
     
  19. The Artist

    The Artist Member+

    Mar 22, 1999
    Illinois
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The question for pro/rel is not how to set it up. I certainly think it's possible to set up a pro/rel system that would make sense in the US both competitively and financially. The question should be why? In a league with a salary cap what is the huge financial upside of instituting pro/rel?

    The benefits, as far as I can see, are to give fans of bottom dwellers a reason to care about the games and to spread professional soccer to more markets. The first benefit might have a small financial gain as fans would have a reason to attend games late in the season even if their team is out of the playoffs. The second benefit might also have some financial gains as it helps soccer gain a greater foothold in the American sports landscape, but the more money soccer fans are spending supporting their division two side the less they are spending on MLS teams. I suppose more competitive lower division soccer might also help create better players whom MLS teams could buy, thus improving the overall product but still the ultimate financial payoff is small.

    What are the risks? Will future expansion owners be willing to pay as much for a ticket to division two? What happens if NY and LA get relegated right before renegotiating a TV contract? That's millions of dollars lost. We've seen what extended mediocrity has done to some fan bases. How much faster will those markets erode once the team is relegated?

    So while I appreciate the new ideas about HOW to make pro/rel work, I still don't understand WHY MLS would want to make pro/rel work. If the league didn't have a salary cap then you could argue that pro/rel will help cull the cheap owners, but your plan includes a salary cap so you could have great markets and great owners getting relegated because of a bad coach or string of injuries. As much of a joke as NY has been in its history there's absolutely no benefit to the league to seeing them relegated.

    The reason why some people dismiss the plan without reading it is because it doesn't matter how brilliant the plan is if it doesn't make money.
     
  20. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    Exactly. Or, to be more crass, "What's in it for Bob Kraft?"

    Does he sell more tickets?

    Does he get more TV revenue?

    How does it put more money in his pocket?

    If it doesn't, he isn't going to vote for it, and a lot of other owners won't either. Simply making the games at the bottom more competitive isn't going to persuade them -- they can always expand the playoffs to achieve that purpose without the pain of relegation. And they sure aren't going to give up $35 million expansion fee checks without some sort of compensation.
     
  21. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    pro/rel might happen due to combination of things such as
    1. FIFA's pressure
    2. Fans demand
    3. Number of owners see it as opportunity to broaden MLS footprint, and upgrade quality of the league driving bad franchises to lower division, hence the value of the league and their clubs increase.
     
  22. blockski

    blockski Member

    Feb 13, 2009
    Club:
    DC United
    There's no way MLS will voluntarily agree to pro/rel. It doesn't fit with their current business model, and that's not something that you can easily change.

    The only way I see it happening is if, say, another league tries to usurp MLS as the dominant soccer league in the US. In the past, we've seen this in North American sports - the AL and NL eventually reached symbiosis, the AFL became enough of a threat to the NFL that it could sue for peace via a merger, and a similar process happened between the WHA and the NHL.

    Of course, that's no guarantee - a league could easily go the way of the USFL or the XFL, too.

    Still, the only way I see MLS accepting pro-rel is if they have no choice. Say someone with deep pockets buys the USL and builds those teams up in markets competing with MLS head to head (and starts winning). Then you'd have a case where pro-rel might work as a means of unifying two leagues with more teams than are practical for one league.

    That's just about the only hypothetical I can imagine that would result in a pro-rel system within the North American history of franchised sports leagues. Until that unlikely time, this is just a solution looking for a problem.
     
  23. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  24. Qdog

    Qdog Member

    May 8, 2002
    Andalusia
    Club:
    Sevilla FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt they would be competing. They will work together as one, using the separate league format as a marketing tool more than anything else.
     
  25. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    then we'll get more of sub mediocracy. two of them.
     

Share This Page