promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to mention that his whole plan starts with those lower division teams that he then insults when people tell him to start with his own local team. Dumb.
     
  2. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Whichever one it is, he just made my ignore list for it.
     
  3. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    No. It's because the likes of Fulham and Bolton receive approaching $100 million a year. Seattle are nowhere near that. They don't have the TV deal. They play less games, with tickets at much lower prices and pay massively more in rental charges.


    Norwich City, in the 3rd tier, draw larger crowds than seven premiership clubs. They are still a rather long way from being able to field a premiership standard team.
     
  4. lala1174

    lala1174 Member

    May 11, 2008
    Las Vegas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Sounders don't pay any rental charges. Seattle's revenue will be about $28m to $35m this year - more if they do well in CCL and in the MLS playoffs. Their biggest expense is $2.6m approx for players salaries.
     
  5. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Buying the top of the pyramid, entitling your clubs to it, is the height or cynicism. It's the antithesis of what it was designed for. Take MLS out of it, and watch to your hearts content, as artificially managed clubs battle it out in a crap shoot.

    If MLS isn't using it, let's recruit some brave new souls who will. "Then you all can have your "USL v MLS and who f'ed up their marketing strategy more" conversation in the real world of closed league American sports. Without clinging to the legitimacy that Div 1 status gives you.

    We'll take the CCL slots. You can battle through the yearly crap shoot.

    Sound fair?
     
  6. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Too early to say it failed, it's on going effort

    They try to start por/rel about 3 years ago, but turned out many teams in D2 are not ready yet, so stopped, but it's more like postpone.

    I'm pretty sure they'll have fairy well established pro/rel system in next 10 years.

    http://sports.chosun.com/news/news.htm?name=/news/sports/200911/20091103/9bc74157.htm

    '3년 내에 승강제 실시.' = 'Implementation of Pro/Rel in 3 years'

    The article says the president of D2 league will try implementation of pro/rel agian in three years. He says "it's nonsense to have leagues without pro/rel in soccer, and it's essential for the develpment and success of soccer in the nation"

    I think it's matter of time.
     
  7. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Norwich City is not getting prem levels of play because the prem won't let them in, right?

    Yes, it's not black and white. Yes, poor management, bad ownership, and overspending can hold a club back.

    But the league can't.
     
  8. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Give them credit for trying, while we're busy putting the financing far ahead of the football.
     
  9. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Well shoot, my sounder fan, they've closed off half of your stadium, so fans per game would be a pretty amazing accomplishment.
     
  10. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, my fiduciary football fiend. Still waiting for one example of a team anywhere in the world that shut down season tickets three months out and refused to open their stadium.

    Handball?

    Jai Alai?

    Chess? Did Spasky, Fisher and those guys turn away fans?

    Maybe steeplechase?

    How about kickball?

    Dodgeball?

    Hide and Seek?

    What about that weird basketball game the Mayans played at Machu Picchu?

    The first Olympics, perhaps?

    Did the Romans shut half to Colosseum to gin up support for the gladiators?

    Just need one example. You can do it.

    Cosmos brought back the sport from a fifty year coma. Not the Atoms, not the Tea Men, not even the Sting. Why? Because even in a closed system, one owner, and one massive turnout after another in Giants Stadium after another, could have a huge impact.

    Yes, I know, the open league (which includes pro/rel btw) is a fools errand perpetrated by people with funny accents, and could never apply here, if we all think like you.

    Timbers and Sounders developed as the West Coast opposition, and Minnesota in the midwest. They also drew healthier crowds than MLS clubs. And every one of them had to import virtually their entire rosters to do it.

    The year the league went bust, soccer became the most popular youth sport in the country, and remains so today.

    So here we are, three decades later, with MLS. Despite dozens of professional clubs, and an established pyramid, a solid core of American players (with a thin bench) and all the benchmarks of a country in which the sport has arrived, Your buddies are still desperately clinging to their list of closed league entitlements.

    But it gets worse. The single entity that Alan Rothenberg traded to our sports owner establishment to get them to pony up for this league in time for the '94 Cup - which FIFA was threatening to pull - has turned a gentleman's agreement into cold hard fact. In order to prevent another rogue group like the Cosmos from ruining their closed league charade, they now have the power, through majority ownership and all of the trimmings of the single entity, to reign in any club with the audacity to be bigger and badder than the league allows.

    So, in order to get your cultural closed league to work, we have to prey on the inferiority complex of some fans, engender a hostage mentality in which club soccer would not exist without MLS, and neuter every club in the process.

    You like this arrangement.

    I don't.

    PS

    Open Leagues Include Pro/Rel - all the way to div 1 - on a permanent basis. Experimental voluntary promotions between lower leagues don't count. So please stop bending the argument for your entitled billionaire defense.
     
  11. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It took you this long? I've had him on my ignore list for ages.. Too bad ignore list doesn't stop you from seeing his posts when someone quotes them, because I'm far too tempted to respond to teh stupid from time to time.
     
  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seattle has a TV deal with a local station. It's only worth chump change compared to what Fulham and Bolton get via their TV deals, but Seattle does have one.
     
  13. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No.. It says the president of the Korean Football Association would like to implement pro/rel in three years. It does not say that he will implement pro/rel in three years. The guy was posted as president a couple of months ago and he's taking a very positive spin to the direction he'd like to see the sport go in Korea. That doesn't mean anything will ever happen... USL's top officials repeatedly said they planned on taking on MLS as the top soccer division and look where that got them.

    And just because some people are dense and like to put words in other people's mouth. The above comment does not mean that pro/rel will never take place again in Korea, just that Korean Football Association's president did not say it will be implemented in 3 years, but rather that he'd like to see it implemented.
     
  14. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even Korea is trying enough said. Oh, and the whole world is on your ignore list. Must be nice.
     
  15. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is the most pathetic of all of the head in the sand defenses.

    "Oh, moderator, please shut down a guy who talks about promotion and relegation in a thread entitled promotion and relegation, and please ignore the infantile name calling we resort to to counter his arguments".

    "We will argue tooth and nail against the mention of of pro/rel, but then will rebel when he suggests that MLS moves out of a pyramid designed for it"

    "All we have are cultural arguments, like those Chrysler used in the 1970s about losing market share to Japanese imports"

    Give it a rest. I know you're out of arguments, but this is pathetic.

    Hopefully MLS clubs will survive the transition, but if you all really are committed to the American sports model, why are you using an entitlement of a European designed pyramid to establish it?
     
  16. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who is this "we?" You have yet to show anyone else that supports your plan. Who are these prospective owners that are just waiting for an open league?
     
  17. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Now let's dissect the arguments in here.

    I give examples of developed countries to which the United States has longstanding cultural ties - and you dismiss them as dreamy. You bring up developing countries that are different in almost every way, and expect that that relevance goes unquestioned.

    NEXT

    There is no guarantee of success, only a long track record of it. If the US managed to botch the transition, it would be pretty phenomenal. There is no model for coming out of a closed league in which clubs are neutered into an open league. MLS is structured to go bankrupt, not to divest. If MLS is unwilling to make the transition, they shouldn't use the pyramid. It's that simple.

    Can't resist addressing this one again. Here we are in a thread about promotion and relegation in MLS, and you all expect to storm in here and just say no. I know MLS has been heavily fortified against the implementation of pro/rel and the independent clubs that are needed to implement it, so use that in my argument. Hopefully, storied MLS clubs will make the transition, but virtually every one is majority owned by MLS, so it's not their call. Yes, they've cleverly designed the league as a hedge against it, and hope that your argument - that arguing for pro/rel is arguing against MLS - wins the day.

    Hostage Mentality.

    Again - you are arguing against pro/rel, so arguing for the inclusion of the argument is either disingenuous, or an attempt at humor.

    Regardless - here's the question that brings us back to the issue at hand:

    If you want to find a way to implement pro/rel - tell me what owner, under the current system that enforces parity on the league by limiting top clubs and lifting lower ones, would ever subject herself to relegation???

    extra credit for not resorting to name calling!
     
  18. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You want to own a club?
     
  19. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope, I don't have anywhere near that kind of money. I just want to know what prospective owners are lining up behind your plan.
     
  20. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm developing a list of supporters. While I suspect there are many potential owners on the list, I've agreed not to release any names at this juncture.

    How do you know you don't have enough to be on an ownership group? Fourth div projections are pretty low. Regionalized leagues limit travel costs. I think Cleveland ends up in the NE region. You can bus just about anywhere.
     
  21. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What, did MLS give the order to abandon ship? Is it something I said?
     
  22. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    It's Comical how ALL of your lists are private. you won't even give a number of supporters or an amount raised.

    Pages back you state you aren't a non-profit, yet on your website you state you are not for profit. Is that not the same thing? you claim to lobby congress, but won't give an example shoul I give you money.

    FYI- in your own bio you state you are a not for profit company

    http://www.soccerreform.us/bio.html

    Oh yeah- if you are a political action committee- you also must report your finances

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_action_committee

    SO I ASK AGAIN, where can I see these important information about your company?

    Failure to respond will have me e-mail my congressman to have you investigated.

    Thanks.
     
  23. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Please call your Congressman.

    I am not making political contributions through the group - come to think about it, under the recent Supreme Court ruling, I could put millions into advocacy ads for a Congresswoman.

    Good thinking!

    Technically, we are a not for profit group - all positions are currently unpaid. However, since we don't want the limits on communication and advocacy, we don't want 501c3 status.

    seriously now.
     
  24. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    By "we" you mean "you" don't you?
     
  25. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    But I thought you were not making political contributions???

    I'm confused.

    Also- if you are a not-for-profit, why would you not want to be a 501c3??

    It just means people can give more cause they give tax free- oh wait, it means you can't scam people and keep your books closed.

    I got it.
     

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