promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yessir - that's why we need some deep reforms to open leagues and unlimit clubs. Relegating a team in MLS would be like relegating an Elephant in Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey to another circus.
     
  2. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    More Americans watched World Cup Matches than World Series and NBA Finals Games in 2006

    Soccer has been the most popular youth sport since the 1980s.

    On average, WWE draws twenty five times more cable tv viewers than MLS.

    By in large, American soccer players and supporters aren't paying attention. MLS is run in a drastically different way here than anywhere else in the world - a way that drastically limits club autonomy. I don't think this is a coincidence.
     
  3. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By all the NASL owners pitching in $2-3 million per club for the expansion slot. I guess they would have to work-around the single entity structure it is possible.

    BTW perfect example of the quality of MLS and it's best players, the US-Honduras game.
     
  4. RedRover

    RedRover BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 15, 2007
    More like crap that passes for your thought process.

    I'm thinking this is you waking up each day:

    [​IMG]

    But do continue on with your wet dream fantasy about how America will become a great soccer nation simply by implementing pro/rel, which will get networks like ESPN to pony up big dollars for the possibility of some big market cities like New York and Los Angeles getting demoted for the likes of say Albany, NY or Fresno, Calif. If you can do that with a straight face, then you must be a big executive for NBC.
     
  5. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a very good reason for this...World Series and NBA Finals have, at most, 7 games. There are 64 games in the World Cup.
     
  6. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ahhh - you are one of those people who sells soccer short to shield MLS and their cro-magnon business model from criticism.

    I on the other hand, believe that soccer is here, and popular in the US, but that MLS is producing a television product that is almost as popular as a series featuring a monkey screwing a goat.

    If Fresno has enough supporters to lift their club to first division, they deserve first division. If not, not. Surely there are other markets in which a club could draw more supporters.

    Of course, we can keep our closed league club soccer conundrum alive by rewarding mediocrity in the name of parity. Debilitated, but alive.

    Open leagues work for soccer. Closed leagues don't. There is a century of evidence.
     
  7. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought that on my first read of this stat. But no. Certain World Cup matches drew more viewers than certain World Series and NBA Finals games.

    Even if your read was correct, It still proves MLS is woefully underrepresented.
     
  8. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's why MLS will always suck in Concacaf Champions league and that's why if MLS played in Europe no team would ever qualify to the Champions League.

    The 8th ranked team could beat the number 1 team, do all you MLSnobs actually think that if Chelsea played Birmingham City or Fulham in a final game they would lose????
     
  9. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you're assuming that the only reason that WC watchers aren't watching MLS is the lack of pro/rel and/or single-entity.

    So in other words you have no source for your statement. Glad we cleared that up.

    Gee, you think? That was the whole point of my question. How do they do that?

    Why is it that whenever pro/rel supporters are pressed for actual details of how it would work given our current structure the best they can do is wave their hands and say "Well, its possible"?
     
  10. blazindw

    blazindw Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jul 30, 2007
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certain games drew more than certain NBA Finals and World Series games? Of course they did. The World Cup final, any of the U.S. matches, the semis...am I right? I'm a Tigers fan and even I can admit that the '06 World Series was watched by no one outside of Detroit and St. Louis. It was also played in the fall, so it wasn't going up against the World Cup. The 06 NBA Finals was the Heat and Mavs, which was also a lackluster draw for the NBA.
     
  11. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is not a source- this is your opinon. What do any of these things have to do with pro/rel?

    There is nothing here to state that adding pro/rel would change this?

    Also- what 1 game was watched by more americans than any 1 game of the World Series of NBA Finals? cause I know you aren't taking a total of 63 games, and comparing it to a total of 7 games.

    I am not opposed to improving american soccer. You have yet to prove how pro/rel would do that.

    Also- if I were to donate to your site, what would my money go to?
     
  12. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The way it would improve is every game would be important and teams would be scared of relegation.
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, as a Rapids fan its been really lousy that we had to play all those unimportant games during the season, only to miss the playoffs by one game each of the last 2 seasons.

    Wait, what? :rolleyes:
     
  14. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    First off playoffs already do this. And please tell me - what happens to the fan bases and attendence, and money of relegated teams in Europe leagues?

    I'll give you a hint- it doesn't go up for them.
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    There almost certainly are. They don't have clubs though, so unless you are proposing they will spontaneously come into existence to take the place of promoted teams with no chance of survival, aren't you putting the cart before the horse somewhat?

    when you can come back and name multiple clubs outside MLS that would add more to it than those already there, then you'll have grounds for considering pro/rel. Until then, it's rather pointless.
     
  16. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    FYI- More Americans watch Hockey in the Olympics than the NHL.

    On average WWE greatly outdraws hockey games, including Stanley cup Finals.

    Would switching hockey to the european method of Pro/Rel increase Hockey fans in the US?
     
  17. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hope I will one day hear these excuses from MLB and NBA fans when our club tournament finals, under an open league format, begin to approach them in numbers of TV viewers.

    Also, as a Duke fan, I know you can relate to arguments that small market clubs can never draw TV viewers!
     
  18. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    You have yet to state why an open league format will increase viewers.

    You like to make your points, and ignore any counter points to your arguement.
     
  19. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've heard the sentiment expressed from NHL fans that it would. I'm not a hockey guy, but some see it as a great solution for overfranchisation.

    The excitement at the bottom of the table should be just as real as the drama at the top. If it's not, they deserve to be relegated.

    It's not a solution for every sport. Certainly I could see it mucking up the NFL (relegated to where?) but the track record in soccer is more than remarkable.
     
  20. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Can you show me a thread, or an article for the NHL that shows where this sentiment is being expressed? otherwise I will just assume you believing it to make your arguement work.

    And it's not that the track record is there for soccer- it's that the track record is there for Europe. european sports have pro/rel, American sports Don't.
     
  21. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't have to argue for promotion and relegation in every sport to make the point for soccer.

    Yes, I like to argue my points.

    The evidence couldn't be clearer. Soccer, under the open league model, conquered the planet, while our closed leagues, since 1894, expired one by one.

    I think it's clear that an unlimited lower div club draws more fans than one trapped in it's division. I think savvy investors jump at the chance to develop lower div clubs w/o a franchise fee.

    I think it keeps every first div game competitive. I think it unlimits the potential of our top supported clubs, and brightens their fortunes on the international stage.

    I believe that under these circumstances, club soccer grows exponentially.

    And to those who pose the argument that we'll get a boring system in which we have a permanent top four, I say if it happens, it doesn't begin to nix the huge benefits to every other part of the pyramid, and the great American clubs that will finally be freed to compete on a level playing field with any club in our hemisphere, and beyond.

    Look, MLS is built as a bulwark against relegation. The systemic reforms are going to have to be really deep, and require a very courageous President of US Soccer.

    I think I'm addressing your arguments pretty conclusively.
     
  22. DCU1996

    DCU1996 Member

    Jun 3, 2002
    N. VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    It's not just Europe. It's all the decent football leagues around the world, thus it's more accurate to say track record for football rather than Europe.

    For example, Japan's J-league has pro/rel while don't have it in its baseball league.
     
  23. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a fair arguement. except you have one fatal flaw. You are comparing what is going on overseas and comparing it to what is happening here.

    Trust me, I am all about improving the MLS and the product it puts out. I have outlined ways to make that happen without pro/rel, and have even inquired about what a contribution to your reform does (which I have yet to get an answer on).

    The reason I compare soccer to other sports, is because I am comparing America to Europe.

    Baseball has for year been the American pastime. There are 100s of Minor league teams across the country that have NO CHANCE of ever playing in the big leagues, yet these teams draw well, and people enjoy going to the games.

    Pro/Rel is not the american way of doing things, and will not be the magic fix.

    The closest thing there is to pro/rel in US sports is the PGA tour, or the tennis. When Andre Aggasi was down on the challanger tour- did anyone care? did they suddenly draw thousands and thousands of fans to his matches? NOPE- he was barely a mention till he got good again.

    Can you tell me the people who lose their PGA card each year? and who replaces them? Do you even know what the cutoff is to stay on the tour or go to Q School? I'm guessing a great majority do not.

    Also- does the Minor league golf tour get extra viewers or attendence cause last years PGA card hodlers were playing? or cause next years might be? Nope- it's golf fans who enjoy watching golf.

    US SOccer still has room to grow, but is light years ahead of where it was even in the height of the old NASL.

    Open the checkbooks to get the top players, and you will be amazed by what the stadiums will look like.
     
  24. WhiteStar Warriors

    Mar 25, 2007
    St.Pete/Krakow
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    http://www.slate.com/id/2175024
     
  25. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    1 article written in 2007????

    That's the best you could do? I think that proves my point.
     

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