Pro talent on college teams

Discussion in 'Statistics and Analysis' started by beineke, Nov 28, 2003.

  1. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    With the NCAA Final Four coming up soon, you may be wondering about a player's chances of getting a shot at the (relatively) big time. Well, if he plays for UCLA, his chances are pretty good. For the entire decade of the 1990s, there were 8-11 future pros among UCLA's letterman. We don't have complete data beyond that, but looking at the current upperclassmen, the trend should continue. UCLA is consistently drowning in talent.

    [Note: Here I've counted players who appeared in MLS, plus Alex Yi who went straight to Europe and Scot Thompson who hasn't appeared yet due to injury.]
    82 (1) - Caligiuri
    83 (1) - Caligiuri
    84 (0) -
    85 (1) - Caligiuri
    86 (2) - Caligiuri, B.Thompson
    87 (1) - B. Thompson
    88 (4) - Sa.George, Jones, Lapper, B.Thompson
    89 (4) - Sa. George, C.Henderson, Jones, Lapper
    90 (11) - Friedel, Sa.George, C. Henderson, S. Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Jones, Lapper, JM Moore, Salcedo, B.Thompson
    91 (9) - Friedel, Sa. George, S.Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Jones, Lapper, JM Moore, Salcedo
    92 (11) - Friedel, Frye, Hejduk, S.Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Lewis, JM Moore, Razov, Salcedo, Snitko
    93 (10) - Frye, Hejduk, S.Henderson, Ianni, Jakins, Lewis, Razov, Salcedo, Snitko, Vanney
    94 (9) - Frye, Hejduk, Jakins, Keller, Lewis, Razov, Reis, Snitko, Vanney
    95 (10) - Frye, Se.George, Hartman, Jakins, Keller, Lewis, Razov, Reis, Snitko, Vanney
    96 (9) - Conrad, Se.George, Hartman, Jakins, Keller, Reis, Shak, Vagenas, Victorine
    97 (10) - Bocanegra, Conrad, Se.George, Keller, Reis, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, Vagenas, Victorine
    98 (8) - Boca, Futagaki, Se.George, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, Vagenas, Victorine
    99 (8) - Boca, Futagaki, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, S.Thompson, Vagenas, Victorine
    00 (5*) - Akwari, Countess, Tennyson, S.Thompson, Yi
    01 (4*) - Akwari, Futagaki, S.Thompson, Yi
    02 (2*) - Futagaki, S.Thompson

    *Some players still at UCLA
     
  2. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Same chart for Indiana ... quite different story

    87 (1) Sommer
    88 (1) Sommer
    89 (2) Deering, Sommer
    90 (2) Deering, Sommer
    91 (2) Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    92 (2) Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    93 (3) Coufal, Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    94 (5) Coufal, Klein, Maisonneuve, Porter, Yeagley
    95 (5) Alavanja, Coufal, Klein, Porter, Rodriguez
    96 (7) Alavanja, Coufal, Klein, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko, Porter
    97 (7) Alavanja, Garcia, Klein, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko, Porter
    98 (5) Alavanja, Garcia, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko
    99 (5) Garcia, Korol, Lavrinenko, Noonan, Warren
    00 (1*) Noonan
    01 (1*) Noonan
    02 (1*) Noonan
     
  3. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I always thought it would be interesting to have an alumni game between MLS/Professional Players from UCLA vs those from Indiana.

    The other thing that is striking is how many guys from Indiana -- and great Indiana championship teams -- have either never overcame, or ultimately descende into, mediocrity. And we're talking Herman trophy candidate types like Alavanja and Korol.

    Meanwhile, of all the Indiana players, only Maisoneuvve could be considered truly an "impact" national teamer -- maybe Deering, but that's it. Klein is on the fringes, and Noonan may be.

    But look at all the Bruins who have been top national teamers -- Caligiuri, Cobi, JMM, Brad, Frankie, Lewis, now Boca. Guys who have been fixtures.

    Interesting.
     
  4. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Question: Was Indiana a random comparison to UCLA, or are they the runner-up in colleges that have produced professional players? I am just curious, mostly because I would have thought that Virginia would be the leader in this statistic.

    As to Karl's point about UCLA vs Indiana national team players, the one striking difference I see between the typical UCLA alum and the Hoosiers is that on the whole, UCLA appears to have better athletes. Perhaps that is not a high priority in Yeagley's evaluation...
     
  5. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Agreed that it's interesting ... I think the root cause is the underlying talent pool in their geographic regions. With the exception of Friedel, all of the UCLA players you list went to high school in Southern California, as did several non-UCLA products ... guys like Wynalda, Balboa, Donovan, Dolo, and Califf. I think UCLA won last year's NCAA title with a 100% California line-up. They're sitting on a goldmine.

    Incidentally, I noticed that my IU list omitted Mike Clark. Hopefully, there aren't many other mistakes.
     
  6. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And yet Indiana under Yeagley has 5 national titles, while UCLA has 4. Much like Bob Knight (with whom he is very good friends), Yeagley produces great college teams, regardless of whether or not those players go on to play at the highest professional level.

    BTW, a lot of other Indiana players have played in the A-League. I know, because we had a boatload of them when I worked for the Blast.

    Strangely enough, Indiana and UCLA play this weekend in the NCAA tournament.
     
  7. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    With yesterday marking the MLS debuts of Zach Wells and Scot Thompson, it's time for an update on this list. Ex-Bruins like Yi (00 - 01), Gregorio (00 -03), and Maurin (00-03) may still get MLS minutes, so it's unlikely that 2000 won't remain as a low point.

    By year, UCLA letter-winners who have appeared in MLS:
    82 (1) - Caligiuri
    83 (1) - Caligiuri
    84 (0) -
    85 (1) - Caligiuri
    86 (2) - Caligiuri, B.Thompson
    87 (1) - B. Thompson
    88 (4) - Sa.George, Jones, Lapper, B.Thompson
    89 (4) - Sa. George, C.Henderson, Jones, Lapper
    90 (11) - Friedel, Sa.George, C. Henderson, S. Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Jones, Lapper, JM Moore, Salcedo, B.Thompson
    91 (9) - Friedel, Sa. George, S.Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Jones, Lapper, JM Moore, Salcedo
    92 (11) - Friedel, Frye, Hejduk, S.Henderson, Ianni, Ibsen, Lewis, JM Moore, Razov, Salcedo, Snitko
    93 (10) - Frye, Hejduk, S.Henderson, Ianni, Jakins, Lewis, Razov, Salcedo, Snitko, Vanney
    94 (9) - Frye, Hejduk, Jakins, Keller, Lewis, Razov, Reis, Snitko, Vanney
    95 (10) - Frye, Se.George, Hartman, Jakins, Keller, Lewis, Razov, Reis, Snitko, Vanney
    96 (9) - Conrad, Se.George, Hartman, Jakins, Keller, Reis, Shak, Vagenas, Victorine
    97 (10) - Bocanegra, Conrad, Se.George, Keller, Reis, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, Vagenas, Victorine
    98 (8) - Boca, Futagaki, Se.George, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, Vagenas, Victorine
    99 (8) - Boca, Futagaki, Rimando, Shak, Tennyson, S.Thompson, Vagenas, Victorine
    00 (7) - Akwari, Countess, Griffin, Taylor, Tennyson, S.Thompson, Wells
    01 (6*) - Akwari, Futagaki, Griffin, Taylor, S.Thompson, Wells
    02 (5*) - Futagaki, Griffin, Taylor, S.Thompson, Wells
    03 (3*) - Griffin, Taylor, Wells

    *Some players still at UCLA

    Speaking of impressive depth on college squads, I notice that ex-Stanford keeper Andrew Terris has gotten a deal with the MetroStars. As a senior, Terris was beaten out by talented sophomore Robbie Fulton. This fall, the tables may turn -- Fulton will be a senior and faces a battle from even-more talented sophomore Andrew Kartunen.
     
  9. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Terris still hasn't played an MLS minute, so he doesn't make the Stanford chart:
    86: Semioli
    87: Semioli
    88: Harty, Semioli
    89: Harty, Semioli
    90: Harty
    91: Harty
    92:
    93:
    94:
    95:
    96: J.Clark
    97: J.Clark, S.Elliott
    98: J.Clark, S.Elliott, L.Morrison
    99: Dunivant, Levesque, L.Morrison, R.Nelsen
    00: Dunivant, T.Graham, Levesque, L.Morrison, R.Nelsen
    01: Dunivant, T.Graham, Levesque, L.Morrison
    02: Dunivant, T.Graham, Levesque, C.Marshall
    03: C.Marshall

    Bobby Clark arrived in 1996 and immediately began to turn out MLS talent. That should be taken with a grain of salt, however ... Jamie Clark was his son, and Simon Elliott and Ryan Nelsen had played for Clark in his previous job coaching New Zealand. He may deserve more credit for walk-on Taylor Graham, who won his first letter in 2000, after arriving on-campus in 1998, IIRC.

    After Bobby Clark left in 2000, there seems to have been a bit of a drop-off, although it's too early for this table to reflect that.
     
  10. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    When UNC beat UVa recently, they tied their all-time series at 30-30-7. Historically, UVa has had more talent, but their media guide isn't online, so I can't chart them. Here's UNC ...

    86: ashton
    87: ashton
    88: ashton
    89: ashton, ferruzzi
    90: ferruzzi
    91: ferruzzi
    92: ferruzzi, pope, zavagnin
    93: pope, t.suarez, zavagnin
    94: (4) pope, t.suarez, talley, zavagnin
    95: (5) pope, sahaydak, t.suarez, talley, zavagnin
    96: (4) e.robinson, sahaydak, t.suarez, talley
    97: (1) talley
    98: (4) carrieri, d.jackson, leitch, e.robinson
    99: (5) carrieri, m.crawford, d.jackson, leitch, e.robinson
    00: (7) carrieri, m.crawford, d.jackson, leitch, pause, e.robinson, stokes
    01: (6) m.crawford, d.jackson, leitch, pause, stokes, testo
    02: (4) m.crawford, pause, stokes, testo
    03:

    There's always a chicken-and-egg situation, but I find it interesting that their 2001 championship team coincided with a surge in the number of future pros on the roster. If Marcus Storey and Tim Merritt make it into MLS, the 2001 group will surpass the 2000's.
     
  11. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Looks like one of the traditional greats might be starting to recover from a long drought...

    Saint Louis
    86: santel
    87
    88: santel
    89: santel, sorber
    90: mcbride, santel, sorber
    91: battelle, mcbride, pinon, sorber
    92: battelle, mcbride, mckeon, pinon, sorber
    93: battelle, mcbride, mckeon, b.wilson
    94: mckeon
    95: mckeon
    96
    97: di maria
    98: di maria
    99: di maria, jewsbury
    00: b.davis, jewsbury
    01: b.davis, jewsbury, selolwane
    02: jewsbury
    03:
     
  12. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Updating Indiana ... they had an uncharacteristically bad year in 2000 -- 7 losses versus 6 from 1997-1999 combined. That could be related to the shortage of pro talent.
    87 (1) Sommer
    88 (1) Sommer
    89 (2) Deering, Sommer
    90 (2) Deering, Sommer
    91 (3) M.Clark, Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    92 (3) M.Clark, Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    93 (4) M.Clark, Coufal, Maisonneuve, Yeagley
    94 (5) M.Clark, Coufal, C.Klein, Maisonneuve, C.Porter, Yeagley
    95 (5) Alavanja, Coufal, C.Klein, C.Porter, E.Rodriguez
    96 (7) Alavanja, Coufal, C.Klein, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko, C.Porter
    97 (7) Alavanja, N.Garcia, C.Klein, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko, C.Porter
    98 (5) Alavanja, N.Garcia, Korol, Kovalenko, Lavrinenko
    99 (5) N.Garcia, Korol, Lavrinenko, Noonan, Warren
    00 (1) Noonan
    01 (2*) Grabavoy, Noonan
    02 (2*) Grabavoy, Noonan
    03 (1*) Grabavoy
     
  13. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    numerista: how hard would it be to add A-League to these lists? I know there are some guys who are playing professionally, just not in MLS.
     
  14. soccertom

    soccertom New Member

    Jun 2, 1999
    SLU has had a few other players drafted by MLS in recent years including Kevin Kalish, Jason Cole and Nick Walls. Kevin Quigley an All American in 1997 would have been drafted by MLS but he informed MLS brass that he would not sign as he was committed to Medical School. Another former SLU player Jacob Thomas has been toiling in the German Regional Bundesliga. A number of SLU players have been playing in the A League including Joe Hammes and Tim Leonard. Keeper Paul Nagy has been in a couple of Dallas Burn Camps in recent years.
     
  15. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Afraid it'd be tough ... I'm not aware of any A-League player register, and even if I had one, it'd be an awful lot of work to find all the kids for a particular school. In addition, for the purpose of assessing talent, I like using an MLS appearance as my gold standard. If a kid gets the chance to play in MLS, he's very likely to give it a shot. By contrast, the decision to play in the A-League will often depend on personal factors (although there is no shortage of quality players there).
     
  16. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    One more list before getting back to the real world ...

    Maryland
    87: j.garvey
    88: j.garvey
    89: j.garvey
    90: j.garvey
    91:
    92:
    93: r.payne
    94: r.payne
    95: k.beach, cullen, r.t.moore, r.payne
    96: k.beach, j.bent, j.cooks, cullen, a.kirk, merkel, r.t.moore, r.payne
    97: k.beach, j.cooks, cullen, a.kirk, merkel, r.t.moore
    98: k.beach, califf, n.downing, merkel, ta.twellman
    99: buete, califf, n.downing, s.ibrahim, ta.twellman
    00: buete, n.downing, goodson, s.ibrahim, salyer, stammler
    01: buete, s.ibrahim, salyer, stammler
    02: buete, goodson, s.ibrahim, stammler
    03: buete, goodson, s.ibrahim, stammler

    To me, this looks like MLS giving too many ACC players a look; apart from a couple of can't-miss prospects, this group hasn't accomplished much.

    Another kind of "pro talent" to mention: standout ref Paul Tamberino played for Maryland.
     
  17. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Thx for the info, Tom ... for simplicity's sake, I'm just including guys who have actually played MLS minutes. Incidentally, I grew up hearing about SLU but hadn't been aware that so few players emerged during the mid-to-late 90's. Was there something holding the program back ... and if so, how was it fixed?
     
  18. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Washington
    90: farrell
    91
    92
    93: russell
    94: boyce, prideaux, russell, waibel
    95: boyce, mccarty, prideaux, waibel
    96: boyce, franchino, mccarty, prideaux, russell
    97: boyce, franchino, mccarty, prideaux, russell, waibel
    98: w.hart, sleeth, waibel
    99: w.hart, sleeth
    00: kingsley, sleeth
    01: kingsley, sleeth
    02:
    03:

    Also, Tim Lawson, currently with DC United, played from
    1994-1997.

    It's fairly remarkable how quickly they dropped from 6 or 7 future MLSers to only 2 ... vaguely, I seem to remember that the program suffered funding cuts.
     
  19. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dear god, how many red cards did they get that year?

    McCarty, Franchino AND Waibel. Its like the soccer version of the Hanson brothers.
     
  20. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Don't forget Brandon Prideaux ... and Wes Hart, who arrived the following year, isn't too easy on the ankles himself. Perhaps the program declined from a rash of career-ending injuries?
     
  21. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Once a strong west coast team, Cal State-Fullerton is 0-5-2 and heading to its fourth straight losing season.

    90: ammann, hesse
    91: ammann, hesse
    92: ammann, hesse
    93: ammann, hesse, lak
    94: franchino, lak, b.wilson
    95: digiamarino, franchino
    96: digiamarino, shel.thomas
    97: oughton, shel.thomas
    98: a.martinez, oughton
    99: a.martinez, oughton
    00: oughton
    01:
    02:
    03:
     
  22. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    UConn

    94: rhine
    95: m.rocha, rhine
    96: m.rocha, rhine
    97: m.rocha
    98: s.forko, c.gbandi, m.rocha, rhine
    99: s.forko, c.gbandi, dar.lewis
    00: s.forko, c.gbandi, dar.lewis
    01: s.forko, c.gbandi, ralph, shav.thomas
    02: ralph, shav.thomas
    03:

    Ray Reid arrived in 1997 and won a national title by 2000 with a team that highlighted foreign-born talent. Last year and so far this year, that strategy has achieved mediocre results ... tough to say whether they'll consistently produce MLSers.
     
  23. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    UVa
    83: Gelnovatch
    84: Gelnovatch
    85: Gelnovatch, Harkes
    86: (3) Agoos, Gelnovatch, Harkes
    87: (3) Harkes, Kelderman, Maessner
    88: (6) Agoos, Kelderman, Maessner, Meola, R.Williams, Yorks
    89: (8) Agoos, Crawley, Imler, Kelderman, Maessner, Meola, R.Williams, Yorks
    90: (10) Agoos, Bates, Causey, Crawley, Huwiler, Imler, Kelderman, Maessner, R.Williams, Yorks
    91: (9) Bates, Causey, Crawley, Huwiler, Imler, Peay, R.Williams, A.J.Wood, Yorks
    92: (8) Bates, Causey, Crawley, Imler, Peay, Pollard, D.Silvera, A.J.Wood
    93: (7) Bates, Causey, Peay, Pollard, D.Silvera, Slivinski, A.J.Wood
    94: (6) Peay, Pollard, D.Silvera, Slivinski, B.Walsh, A.J.Wood
    95: (7) Chulis, B.Olsen, Pollard, D.Silvera, Slivinski, Vermillion, B.Walsh
    96: (7) Chulis, M.Green, B.Olsen, Slivinski, Vermillion, B.Walsh, B.West
    97: (8) Albright, Chulis, M.Green, Jas.Moore, B.Olsen, C.Prince, Vermillion, B.West
    98: (6) Albright, Chulis, M.Green, Mar.Leonard, Jas.Moore, C.Prince
    99: (4) K.Arena, Mar.Leonard, Martino, C.Prince
    00: (6) K.Arena, Eskandarian, LeBlanc, Mar.Leonard, Martino, C.Prince
    01: (5)* K.Arena, Eskandarian, LeBlanc, Mar.Leonard, Martino
    02: (3)* K.Arena, Eskandarian, LeBlanc
    03: *

    Also of note: Reyna 91-93

    Obviously, the numbers are fairly big (slowly declining), but for the past decade, there's been a lot more light than heat.
     
  24. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    numerista, what are you using to compile these charts?
     
  25. numerista

    numerista New Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Many schools post their all-time lettermen, so I use that, along with an archived MLS player register, which already includes colleges for most players. It's a little time-consuming, but I really enjoy seeing the results. It seems appropriate to wrap up this project with the nation's current #1 team in both polls:

    UC-Santa Barbara
    99: Thiago Martins
    00: Thiago Martins
    01:
    02:
    03:

    Not too long ago, people would've said this team was completely irrelevant to soccer in California, let alone the US. In 1998, the year before their current coach took over, they were 2-17-1. More recently, however, they've been putting up excellent records, so it'll be interesting to see what happens next year to current standouts like Drew McAthy and New Zealand national teamer Tony Lochhead.
     

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