Pro/Rel Again (Prompted by USL for Sale)

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Which would be a death knell to several markets here who are struggling even without promotion and relegation.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

if so they'll struggle no matter what, let them struggle in MLS2.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

they won't struggle. they will die. we haven't even talked about the issue that MLS has used this promise of future revenue in order to get help for stadiums from several markets. so what do you tell them now, when KC or Dallas (or a number of other teams who got help) gets relegated? Fans need to get over this relegation wet dream. The US market isn't in the same zip code of strength it must be to be able to support it.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

And what world does MLS exist in? Should I watch howard the duck again?

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Exactly. Look no further then this season. If relegation was in place Red Bull would be playing in the USL next year, the same season they open a stadium the owner just payed 200 million to build. If any other owner or potential owner saw this happen the chances of them investing significant capital in their team would be zero. Relegation will never happen here. Garber has already said this like a billion times.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

pro/rel plan and design should be for long term and end state.

should have strong 1st division, and also strong 2nd division before staring pro/rel.

let me see some quotes from Garber.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Promotion and relegation are for mickey mouse leagues.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

yea so just about every other soccer league in the world are mickey mouse leagues.

here's a thread for you - https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1138302

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

I think pro/rel is better for stabilizing and protecting entire American soccer pyramid.
Lower division teams will be better supported and recognized if they have chance to earn their way up to higher division.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

I agree, if they were to do this, it's highly unlikely USL-1 would have to conform to single entity right away. But they would likely enact cost controls like conference schedules and a senior roster salary cap of say $500k.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

I just don't understand what people don't understand about this. Pro/Rel is a destabilizing force in the market, and a money loser since it doesn't allow you to make long term plans with the same conviction, for fear of not having the same revenue stream (which happens all the time). how someone can say that it's actually a "stabilizing" force is silly. Wildly fluctuating revenues and/or costs is not stabilizing. Period. American sports have it right on this one from a business standpoint, and people simply don't want to admit it. But back on topic, I think the comment about the CBA are on point. How can they do this while paying players in the "major" league so pathetically? How do you justify it? In a way though, if it could be done, it'd be nice if the lower league was used something like a farm league. There are a lot of questions to ask at this point, and so few answers.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Higher division teams spend more and more money in an attempt to not get sent down, and if they do, their multi millon dollar investment is worth around a fifth of what it was. No thanks. The owners who invested in MLS to get it where it is today are not going to have their investments thown away. I'm all for the plucky underdog stories, but that's what the open cup should be for. That's what the CCL would be for. I still think the USL-1 winner should get a CCL berth. Do you think the Rochester Rhinos, as the top US club, would have done better than the MetroBulls?

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Do you start with the 4 (maybe now five, MAYBE!) team EPL or do you go to the SPL?

At least MLS has more than 4 teams.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

yea thus, MLS da best in the world.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

How? Why? It seems the evidense shows that a lot of people don't care to come see teams compete for the Coca Cola championship, but then for some reason turn out to see the same team in the EPL.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Now, I don't have a hard-on for pro/rel but this argument doesn't necessarily work with MLS. What revenue streams change? What investments are lost?

Because MLS is a single entity they could still split TV money across all teams evenly. What would be the big deal?

Personally I think it's more likely we go to 2-3 conferences with 20 teams each and we'll have perennial bottom dwellers and mega-teams like other sports.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

It doesn't have the best players, but MLS does have more than 4 teams. Can Spain say that? Can Scotland? Can Argentina? Can England? Seriously...if you are into 4 team leagues sure. How many teams are in the T&T league 6 or 8?

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

MLS lost over 350 million during its formative years. The investors during that time still need to have that money protected. Hopefully, one day, they might get their money back. Expansion clubs since 2005 have paid into a league, and unless I am mistaken, they all havent recouped that investment. Who invests 100 million or more knowing it could all be lost in one year with no way to get out? That's just bad buisness..

Not only do I not know for certain how much MLS makes in TV rights fees, I'm sure it's not much, at least in comparison to US leagues other than soccer, or worldwide soccer leagues. I'm sure we're not talking about a fistful of cash, or at least not enough to justify the risk of losing one's MLS spot to a "minor league"

I agree. I'm still not sure why everyone is so "stiff" about the idea of MLS pro/rel. What USL team are you supporting that you hope can win promotion? For fans in Minnesota, Rochester, or Charleston, I get it. Otherwise, we're talking about the "concept" of pro/rel, which exists in just about every other soccer league in the world. However, we're talking about the apparent excitement that happens with the bottom of the table every season in the EPL. Personally, buying into a European concept, simply because it is European, is Europosing at its definition. If you are a supporter of a lower club that should have been promoted, I respect that. If not, I will support pro/rel as soon as MLS is more popular than MLB, and USL is more profitable than Minor League Baseball. If not, we're talking about the winner of the NNS getting a free pass to next season's Sprint Cup, simply beacuse that's the way it should be. How is that NCAA Gridiron Tournament winner getting an automatic bowl birth in next season's BCS working out? Sound silly? It is, but it's not soccer.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

If they didn't have pro/rel, Coca Cola championship would be worse.

There could be a big club effect, too like Beckham effect in MLS.
When your team play big clubs like ManU, Chelsea, Liverpoo, attendance will get boost.

by the way do you have some data?

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Well, it was one of the main comments in the linked article. So it was pretty much set up to go that way.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

I guess it's matter of preference... a league with 20 bad teams or a league with 4 good teams and the rest.

by the way I don't think it has anything to do with pro/rel. It has to do with salary cap. check out the salary cap thread.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Here is a logical explanation for Pro/Reg:

http://soucieonsoccer.com/2009/05/1...-current-mls-league-design-part-i-the-system/


http://soucieonsoccer.com/2009/05/1...urrent-mls-league-design-part-ii-the-example/

It's a easy argument to understand.

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

Thanks for that blog. It was a good article to read. I believe you are in error, though. It explains the HOW a pro/rel system would work. Under that argument, it is quite a good description. It eases, or attempts to ease, the fears that MLS2 wouldn't be a true minor league. i like the idea of extra playoffs to generate more revenue, as well.

There is, though, no talk whatsoever of WHY we need pro/rel. This is the same question I keep asking. Why have it at all? Is there any economic benifit for any current MLS clubs to give up so much without absolutely NOTHING in return? I get the how. The WHY we need it, other than it is the European way they do it, still escapes me. Call me stupid, but it's a really difficult argument to understand, especially when I can't get an answer of why we need it in the firstplace...

 

Re: MLS in running to buy USL

One of the big why is because there's fairly big demand from the fans(customers).
Garber acknowledged that. Customer demand and satisfaction is big factor in any business. You can't say nothing in return.