From reading the other threads in this forum it seems we are not producing as many defensive players as we need to. The bulk of the talent coming from the youth ranks are forwards and attacking midfileders. I think we need to get more young defenders and defensive midfielders into the professional ranks at an early age.
I think things are probably OK. It would be nice if MLS signed more young defenders, but the US has produced capable defenders for the last 20 years and will continue to do so. MLS' focus will always be on attacking players for obvious reasons, and defenders generally take longer to mature anyway. Given that, it makes sense that most of these guys head to college for a few years of playing time. This might mean we look overmatched in U-20 tournaments (which hasn't been the case this summer!) when "their" guys have had a year or two of pro ball, but in the long run I think it's not too troubling and is probably just as much a reflection of the fact that we've got loads of skilled attackers coming up as anything else. It's true, however, that we haven't produced a defensive "prodigy" -- someone like, off the top of my head, Ferdinand or Samuel or maybe Woodgate -- similar to on offense with Beasley, Donovan, etc. But those guys are rare the world over. I'm guessing Freeman and Oneywu are our best bets for guys who could be Nats-quality in their early 20s.
I would tend to disagree that defenders take longer to mature. Danny Califf Nick Garcia Carlos Bocanegra Jeff Stewart Kelly Gray Rusty Pierce Ryan Suarez Mike Petke Richie Kotschau Carey Talley All these guys came into the league and were starters and have matured sooner rather than later as MLS pros. How many 1st year pros straight out of college that are offensive players have done as well? Kyle Martino Josh Wolff DaMarcus Beasley Jeff Cunningham Ben Olsen Brad Davis Clint Mathis Ian Russell How many have struggled and taken time to develope or haven't made an impact at all? Alavanja Curtis Daniv Kovalenko Jason Moore West Paule Fuller Asad Carrieri Barclay Rhine Klein Quill Albright Marshall - started as a forward Mullan Gonzalaz Bower I don't necessarily think it is any easier for a defender or a forward to make any impact in MLS, but you can probably list more o-mids, wingers, and fowards that have taken more time to develope in MLS than d-mids and defenders. There are more FA's in the offensive postitions thant there are in the defensive ones, but remember that the recent college signings are playing against the better offensive players and doing quite well.
I think the biggest difference between offensive and defensive players is requirements of success. An offensive player can make 50 mistakes in a row, continually missing shots or being dispossessed in the opponent's half. Then do one thing correctly and score a goal or get an assist. This one good act essentially atones for the 50 bad actions. A classic example is the play of Clint Mathis, who often looks unimpressive for long stretches, then pulls a little brilliance out of his hat to win a game. For defenders it is just the opposite. If a defender does 50 correct actions, but makes a big mistake like poorly marking a forward and the forward scores, then the single bad act negates all of the 50 good actions. The requirement for success on offense is simply scoring or causing one goal. If you do that, very little else matters. The requirement for success on defense is near flawlessness. Because younger players are 100% guaranteed to make mistakes, the young defenders are less likely to play unless they are more ready. The penalty for a semi-ready defender playing is simply too high. There is much more lee-way for attackers. Also, wing defending is less crucial than central defending. And, wing attacking is less crucial than central attacking. That's why young defenders play right back or left back and young attackers play right wing mid or left wing mid or maybe even forward, but seldom play central attacking midfield. A guy like a Carlos Bocanegra is a true star because he had the ability and consistency to organize the entire back line while holding down the center back position defensively. That's almost unheard of. -Tron
Yes, but the difference is when these guys turned pro. Stewart, Suarez, Petke, Kotschau and Talley all played 4 years of college ball. Garcia, Bocanegra, Gray and Pierce turned pro after their junior seasons. Of your list, only Califf, who turned pro after 2 seasons at Maryland, made an impact as a young player. If you look at the history of MLS, only a small handful of defenders have been signed before they finished 4 seasons of college soccer. Ubusuku Abukusumo (3 years) Nelson Akwari (2 years) Carlos Bocanegra (3 years) Danny Califf (2 years) Ramiro Corrales (no college - played in the USL for a year before signing with MLS) Jake Dancy (2 years) Joey Digiamarino (2 years) Brian Dunseth (2 years) Nick Garcia (3 years) Kelly Gray (3 years) Chad McCarty (3 years) Rusty Pierce (3 years) Seth Trembly (no college) If you look at this list, for the most part, the ones who have done well are the ones who played 3 years of college soccer. While I agree that MLS could be more proactive in signing the top young defenders, I also think that history has shown that it's easier for defenders to make the jump to MLS if they're a little older and thus more mature physically, mentally and emotionally.
What if the one moment of glory never comes for the attacker in the first year or second year. This happens a lot: see West, Asad, Quill, Carrieri, or Gonzalez? Isn't this the same as a defender making clear individual mistakes that lead to a goal once in a while? Goals are expected to be scored and allowed. How can you hang a defender for playing well over time, but making the occasional error? What if the defender was exposed by poor play from the attacker, which leads to a goal? You know a poor pass in the attacking third or in the middle third that starts a counter. Isn't this how most goals are scored - not through a deliberate build-up? If you look at my original list, only three out of the nine defenders are outside backs and half of my attacking players play(ed) centrally coming into the league. So two years of college makes you a young player, but three makes you an older player? That is a pretty fine line. What are you saying, the current crop of defenders in the U23/U20's that are in college should stay there the full four years? This way they are "more mature physically, mentally and emotionally"? Maybe Chad Marshall was correct by signing with Stanford. The majority of professionals all over the world, especially in Europe, don't make an impact (start or is a key sub) until they are 21 or 22. Typcially only college seniors are 21 or older (Suarez was 23 when he was drafted). Any player that played three or less years of college ball and can make an impact in MLS is ahead of the curve. Any player that can do it at 19 or 20 fits the bill. Califf did make an impact, but so did Garcia, Gray, Bocanegra, and Pierce. The others I've mentioned are right on course as far as the rest of the world does it. The same applies for the attackers I've listed. Mathis, Russell, and Cunningham all played four years. I'm sure I could come up with a list very similar to your's that implies the same thing (one must be more mature; which is true). West (2), Asad (3), Quill (1), Paule (3), Kovalenko (3), Daniv (3), Olsen (3), Davis (2), Wolff (3), Martino (3), Jason Moore (2), Albright (2), Bardales (3), Jose Botello (1 year of JC & Pro D2 training). Throw in Jamar & DaMarcus Beasley, Nino Da Silva, Francisco Gomez, Mario Longo, Convey, Johnson, Quaranta, Mapp, Capano, Barclay, Klinger, Salas, and Saavedra. If you look at this list the ones who have done well are the ones who played 3 years of college ball. I guess a player needs three or four years of college ball. I also think that history has shown that it's easier for attackers to make the jump to MLS if they're a little older and thus more mature physically, mentally and emotionally. ------- To comment on the original post... U.S. Soccer is producing good defenders. The U18's and U17's have graduated some good defenders into the current U20 pool. They will get good experience in college playing 20-25 games against some good competition (most play in the major conferences for big-time schools). This is very similar to the experience the U20 players from Mexico, Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, Canada, and other CONCACAF teams are getting. If the results from the latest U20 tournament in Spain are any indication, the U.S. U20's are - including the defense - not far behind the rest of the world, if at all. By the time Oly's role around the U23's will be just as seasoned as the last U23 squad in defense. I also think the offense will control a lot of possesion, so that will help too.
It seems that the MLS has started to look at some of the young defending players.They have been in contact with both Jonathan Spector the defender for the U17 team and Will Hall the dmid for the U18 team. Whether or not they go pro - or as it has been argued if it is better to get some time in the college game first - Its still great to see the MLS expanding the types of players they are looking at.
Not sure I agree with this ... it seems like our defense has always relied on aging foreign players. I'm thinking of guys like Dooley, Clavijo, Regis, and Llamosa. Recently, we even gave Diego Gutierrez a runout. Fundamentally, the US has more problems on defense than offense. That's because the major sports are more attractive to kids who have the physique to play D. Let's remember that some of our best defenders have been late converts from other sports. Lalas was a hockey player; Boca and Pope were football defensive backs; Gbandi was a football star, too, although he apparently preferred soccer all along. For every one of these guys who ended up in soccer, there are countless more who didn't. The biggest reason for losing these players is the shortage of major college soccer programs. Without them, Pope, Gbandi, and Boca would have taken football scholarships. It's a rare defender who (1) is ready for MLS at age 18 and (2) wants to skip college.
does it really matter, if they sign offensive players,don't defenders usually get better from playing against better competition? So if the o-players are better, the defenders are going to have to naturally improve just to keep up, the best defenders play against the best forwards. thats my thoughts.
MLS has been offering the key youth NT defenders Project-40 contracts over the past few years. The problem is that most of the defenders have not accepted these offers. U-17 1999 Group (82s): The entire backline of Gooch Onyewu, Nelson Akwari, Alex Yi (never heard this confirmed, but hard to imagine MLS didn't offer), and Seth Trembly were offered Pro-40 contracts at the conclusion of New Zealand '99. Seth Trembly was the only player to accept the MLS offer and ironically he was also the only player of the group to be excluded from the U-20 Youth Cup. Also, defensive midfielder Ken Cutler was offered, but decided to attend Clemson. Cutler has struggled to make an impact at the college level. U-18 1999 Group (81s): The Mitch Murray coached U-18 team didn’t produce any defenders (except d-mid Brian Carroll) for the U-20 NT. The starting defense included: Kevin Wickart, who is now playing at St. Louis after being kicked off the squad at Wake Forest last year. Ryan Gibbs, a forward that was converted to right back for the U-18s. Gibbs has played mostly forward at UVa starting opposite U-23 player Alecko Eskandarian. Abe Geiger, who started as a defensive midfielder for the Stanford Cardinal the past few season’s. Geiger was starting somewhere in the backline for the U-18s. Matt Oliver, a physical centerback continues to start at that same position for UVa. Oliver suffered a knee injury before his freshmen year of college, which likely hampered his progress. Sandon M. is still fairly high on this player. Brian Carroll, a d-mid from Wake Forest was the starting d-mid and the lone player of the group to make the jump to the final U-20 team. Carroll was offered a Project-40 contract after Argentina '01. He still has another season of college eligibility after 2002. I have no idea if any of these players were recruited by MLS before they entered college. MLS only signed one player (Micah Cooks) directly from this team. U-17 2001 Group (84s): The starting backline consisted of Jordan Harvey, David Chun, Chad Marshall, and Grey Griffin. Marshall confirmed that had the option to sign with MLS following the disaster showing at T&T '01. The other three were likely not offered by MLS. However, the defensive subs at Bradenton, in particular Chefik Simo (#6 defensive option on U-17 team) have stepped since leaving Florida (or perhaps they were always better but didn't play for whatever reason). After not getting the call to the initial U-20 camps, Simo has seized the LB position from former U-17 teammate Harvey. An impressive performance at the U-20 qualifiers should get the full attention of MLS. Simo's got plenty of size to play in MLS and the left-foot attacking skills to match. Thomas Rongen claims he's a great one v. one defender too. MLS also signed U-17 defensive midfielder Jordan Stone. U-18 2001 Group (83s): George Gelnovatch's starting defense included from left to right: John Hartman (UVa), Ryan Cochrane (Santa Clara), Troy Roberts (Cal), and CJ Klaas (Washington). I'm not sure if any of the players were offered Pro-40 contracts before they went to college. Klaas and Cochrane have made a smooth jump to the U-20 level and will likely start in Charleston. A good showing by these two players should garner attention from MLS. The defensive midfielder from this group Ricardo Clark (Furman) reportedly turned down MLS last winter. Everyone seems to agree that Clark has all the necessary tools to succeed at the next level. U-20 2001 Group (81/82s): Ricky Lewis, Kenny Arena and Brian Carroll are the only defenders/d-mids left from this squad that haven't made the jump to the pro ranks. Carroll turned down MLS as mentioned above. Lewis likely did as well and who knows about Arena. Current Teams U-17 2002 Group (86s): Jonathan Spector, a starting centerback is said to have a Project-40 offer on the table. I believe MLS would only offer, if there serious interest from an MLS coach (perhaps Bob Bradley?). Dwight "Brandon" Owens, the other starting centerback is another good prospect at this level. His father was in contention for the US Olympic team as a 100M sprinter, before the USA boycotted Moscow '80. This kid has all the tools (size, speed, brains) to become a great defender for the MLS/USA. He's started every international game for the U-17s except one over the past year and is a co-captain for the team. I'm sure MLS will try there best to get him. U-18 2002 Group (85s): Bob Jenkins used this defensive lineup over in France/Spain, from left to right: Hunter Freeman, Greg Dalby, Patrick Phelan, and Kareem Smith. The defensive midfielder was Will Hall. Freeman, a former Bradenton player is now starting at UVa. The rest of the starters are still attending high school. Will Hall has received interest from MLS according to the post above and Greg Dalby was rumored to have drawn interest from EPL clubs. U-23 2002 Group (82s): The major new player in the pool is UNC standout David Stokes. Stokes reminds some observers of former Tar Heel star Eddie Pope. He has all the physical tools to be a great player in MLS. Stokes still has one season left at Chapel Hill after this year, so the MLS should attempt to sign him this winter.
Wow ... amazing rundown, davide! Just one small footnote: Eventually, two defenders went P-40 from the 1997 U-17 team. Dan Califf left college after two years, and Nick Downing after three. No idea when they were first offered contracts.
Thanks davide! Along with Hall (Dmid) and Dalby (Def), Kartunen (GK) has had interest both within MLS and in Europe. I don't know about the status of any offers, but it seems unlikely that MLS would offer him because he is a keeper. Europe might though. Danny Kassabayian (I may have misspelled his last name) is a fast forward from the Roanoke, Virginia area that was offered a spot with EPL Champions and current EPL leaders Arsenal. He's expected to accept. He wasn't in any of the teams, but was in the player pool at his age. I believe he's 18. There is an international rule that a team cannot hire an international player until he is 18, so I think Danny will be going to their Academy for a little while, dunno how long. While I'm not dissing Owens at all, because he's universally recognized as a great prospect, he is a tad short at the moment. He's listed at 5'11, but may be an inch shorter. He's not the bulkiest player either, so he may need another year to mature physically before he can bang with MLS forwards. I believe the Spector interest is because he is a little more physically mature already than Owens. Also, Spector is a little better with the ball at his feet I'm told. He used to be an attacking midfielder/forward who was converted to central defense, but apparently his defending is also pretty good. -Tron
Dalby has accelerated his studies and is now on track to graduate this year and is looking at many schools. Kartunen has made a verbal commitment to Stanford.
I know you guys are saying the defenders take longer to mature but Dave is right. Ferdinand and Woodgate were both regularly starting and playing well in the Premiership at age 18. We haven't developed the defensive talent like we are developing the offensive talent.
Thanks, I didn't know that. These two, and Will Hall, don't get the same level of attention from us because of their being between residency years sorta. I wonder if any of the three will turn pro next year? -Tron
Well, it again sparks the debate about the value of a Stanford education (Marshall, Kartunen). An article in the LA Times today reported about Stanford leading the Pac-10 in athlete grad rate at 90%. There aren't many Stanford grads playing pro anything. A dropout nicknamed Tiger is getting by, but this is soccer. With the Cardinal sitting on top of the heap early in the season, Mr. Marshall may find the posh confines of Palo Alto too enticing to leave.
It reminds me of the year English majors led the UVa grads in avergae starting salary. A kid named Ralph Sampson got a nice entry level wage.
Considering the way Marshall was abused last night, he shouldn't be in any hurry to walk away from a scholarship.
Sort of like the psych graduates at Wake Forest experienced a surge in average starting salary after Tim Duncan graduated?
Don't sweat GKs much at all. They can do their four years no problem and still have long ass careers. I've never, ever been impressed with Marshall other than his heading ability. He reminds me of a younger Califf--all size, not much athleticism with perhaps more skill. I'd tend to doubt how interested guys are in a professional career when they end up going to Stanford. Great education, but this kid could have signed with better soccer schools like UVA AFAIK.
I'm a huge UVa fan, and I agree that the best collegiate competition is in the ACC and that UVa is the class of the ACC, but presently Stanford is doing just fine. While they play a lighter schedule normally, their coach has had them playing as a top flight program for a few years now. While I'd still say that UVa would be the best choice for a budding star that wants a good education, I can't second guess their choices. Marshall and Kartunen are from California, Stanford is one of the best educational institutions in the world, one of the better soccer programs in college, and it's local to them. I'd say he made a good choice. -Tron
Well said. Let's also remember that Stanford doesn't have a long history as a men's soccer power. It's only now that they're starting to attract top prospects. Let's wait and see how well they develop (I think you'll find that current seniors like Levesque and Maliza have been brought along very well). Incidentally, here's my brief impression of Marshall so far. He does have some excellent technical skills. However, he needs to fill out a lot before he can compete against men. In addition, he doesn't have the tactical maturity that I was hoping to see from a national U-20 player.
The starting U-18 keeper Jason Landers attracted attention from Manchester City, but they couldn't guarantee him a work permit. He was invited over to England to play with the Man City U-17 team in a tournament last summer. Which team was after Kartunen? Spector and Owens are about the same size. I have a photo of the team from earlier this year, they're almost bookends and both should fill out over the next few years.