Pressing in the Women's College game and its impact on the players

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Number007, Oct 27, 2020.

  1. SuperHyperVenom

    Jan 7, 2019
    @Sophos I have a hard time believing that the non-national team ex-college US players overseas are considered more technical then their European counterparts who would have gone through the professional academy system with proper coaches, etc. A lot of the US players wouldn't ever have had as good coaching (even in college) and they would have grown up in a win at all cost system which is not necessarily good for development. But you'd be more in the know than me so now I am curious. Which leagues are these players playing in?
     
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  2. Tom81

    Tom81 Member+

    Jan 25, 2008
    #27 Tom81, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
    Unless I missed something @Sophos didn't say more technical.
    He did say,
    " 2. The leagues in Europe are littered with former collegiate players who are doing well and contributing. (Not just national team players)"
    That's very different.
    I think a very relevant question or two would be:
    Is it easier for a good American player with great athleticism and good but not great ball skills to succeed and progress overseas?
    Or is it easier for a superior foreign tactician with great ball skills, slightly less athleticism to succeed in America?

    My base of knowledge is largely FSU.
    I will say that we have had many National team players from other countries on our teams.
    We have 3 now with Carle for Canada, Zhao for China and Payne for Ireland.
    None of those would be a risk to make the USWNT.
    We've had many in the past in the same category.
    IMO again, the only one who would make a good run at our USWNT would be Natalia Kuikka.
    Many of our American players conversely could make other nations' NT.
    JMHO!
     
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  3. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    TEAMS benefit from adding skill sets they currently don't have. US players abroad usually bring a level of physicality along with their technical profile that makes most teams better because many do not have it. Kids with the physical profile dont have the opportunities that exist here. Believe it or not many of these countries do not grow up playing soccer in environments that reward physicality. Its cliched, but vs boys, something they do a lot longer in other countries, you cant out muscle them per se so you have to develop other skills.

    Different cultures produce different types of players. What a brazilian sees as good soccer is different to a German. In the US, there is a tendency to reduce a team game to stats, MVPs, best player etc etc. A bunch of good players in great situations will usually outperform a few great ones in bad situations. The non sequitur for me is the assumption that team success means the individuals better players, especially at the next level.

    In my opinion there is very little difference between Zhao and Ashley Sanchez. You could build a team around Zhao but you would need certain players around her to complement her skillset, which is pretty hard to find. The challenge for her at the next level is the same as DC. Is she physically able to get herself into games.
     
  4. Sophos

    Sophos Member

    Feb 20, 2020
    Agree with a lot of that. I think one of the things we have in the United States on the women’s side is we have A LOT of soccer. I think we have a lot more soccer than the Europeans. That means we have more good soccer, more average soccer and more bad soccer.
    1. I agree development starts long before players get to College. I just don't think it's all bad. It's producing the "new breed of WNT team player" We have some bad teams out there but there are some young teams playing some really good soccer as well. Ecnl showcase in Phoenix is livestreaming virtually everything. There will be games that convince you that we will never lose a world cup again and others that make you wonder how we ever won one.
    2. I think your second and third point seem to contradict each other a bit? Maybe I'm just not understanding though. They kind of work because I don’t really disagree with either of them individually. It just seems a bit circular to me. (I guess development often is) I would say tend to agree with your point that the colleges are a product to the players they get. I think there are many college programs that would play a more attractive style if they could but can’t get the players. Again I think the number of players that can ping it around at that level are fairly rare which is why when you get away from the top teams and players in almost any league the goes down.

    3. I agree that times and styles change and many of the younger national team players aren't from the hardcore line change pressure at all costs teams.(I think we define pressing differently) I just think that the those teams provide a really tough test for those other teams to have to play through. A trial by fire if you will and it seems to be working as some of the young talent on the national team is really fun.

    4. I think we probably drastically disagree on the ratio of teams that play this way in college soccer but that's ok.

    5. I mainly agree with you on the subbing issue just don't think it hurts as much as you do, but if had my way college soccer would adopt the subbing rules you laid out. I will say the NCAA did it once. (around 2003/2004?) It was probably better from a developmental aspect but hurt from a participation aspect as teams were unable to sub players in later in games. That shouldn’t really be a factor when we are talking about why players develop but there it is. Have to remember that most athletic directors are not funding soccer because of a love of a game or as a real desire to develop players. They are doing it as a title 9 makeweight and the more players that play the better. As someone pointed out that isn’t perfect but it does keep thousands of players playing competitive soccer. I’m not arguing the developmental aspect. In fact I will agree with you. I was just providing some context.

    As for the yellow cards=Yes. I would also add red cards to that. Many times a yellow card is license to do what you want for the remainder of the game
     
  5. Sophos

    Sophos Member

    Feb 20, 2020
    Responding to the above two posts (and I should state I am by no means a comprehensive expert on women's European Soccer)

    You are both right. I never said US players were more technical than players growing up in a European system but I did say that they were seen as technical. I believe that to be true. It may be a different type of technical, but from what I've been told
    1. US players are often valued for their 1 vs 1 ability which involves technique
    2. I had one coach tell me that in effect US players have the technique to play and the speed of play is easy for them so they have the skill set to adapt to the European game. They just have to adapt to what the pacing of a 90 minute game with 3 subs allows. Those that fail often don't fail because a lack of ability or skills but for a lack of ability to adapt to the new "mindset." Many succeed.
    3. it seems to me that all of those things (good and bad) are results of the system. The technical speed is developed playing in the fast pace of the collegiate game. The 1 vs 1 aspect is practiced and developed. The lack of pacing and mindset are not as widely taught and can be patched over with subs (At some programs youth and collegiate)

    I've known some players in Norway, Czech, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Sweden and England and Iceland, Australia and Mexico. Not all in the top divisions. None of them full national teamers. Some of them with youth national team experience.
     
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  6. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    @Sophos

    I think your second and third point seem to contradict each other a bit? Maybe I'm just not understanding though. They kind of work because I don’t really disagree with either of them individually. It just seems a bit circular to me. (I guess development often is) I would say tend to agree with your point that the colleges are a product to the players they get. I think there are many college programs that would play a more attractive style if they could but can’t get the players. Again I think the number of players that can ping it around at that level are fairly rare which is why when you get away from the top teams and players in almost any league the goes down.

    I think we agree. Im saying that the youth soccer business will try and produce what College soccer values. Yes it is circular and the changes are not instantaneous. Passing teams have to have a level of technical ability across the squad or it all falls apart. The youth system here is long on competitive games and shorter on individual development because the vast majority of demand is for that. As you say, at the very top end the players that can ping it around is not big and I do believe that has helped fuel international scouting at the majority of those schools.

    Enjoying your Pov
     
  7. Klingo3034

    Klingo3034 Member+

    Dallas FC
    United States
    Oct 11, 2019
    Have to remember many of the senior players of USWNT have played overseas so it combines physical and technical abilities best of two worlds. As well as working together with possession and pressing as we have seen.
     
  8. Sophos

    Sophos Member

    Feb 20, 2020
    007- Fair enough. I do have a question and an observation and then we are probably close to done with this. It's been a lot of fun though. Killed some Covid time.

    1. What heavily possession teams have you seen going big with their foreign scouting? Florida State is the obvious example of the team that has done foreign best. (Hi Tom) They have been doing it for a long time and doing it better than anyone. I don't think anybody else has his contacts though. Even the two assistants that he has put into major programs (Alabama and TCU) seem to be heavily US with one foreign player on the roster? Arizona State seems to be going very foreign but 1. They don't seem to overly successful yet. 2. I don't know much about their style of play.

    I certainly don't know all the possession teams and will admit to being pretty woefully ignorant of teams that are east of the Mississippi (Outside the ACC at least) but a sampling off the top of my head are
    a. Stanford- A couple of foreign players but mostly us
    b. UCLA- A pretty good foreign group but only if you count Canada (Which I never have) Aside from that one English women.
    c. University of Denver- All US
    d. Pepperdine- Haven't checked but mostly US
    e. Duke- Haven't checked but mostly US
    f. Virginia- haven't checked but mostly US
    g. Butler- I think there are a couple of foreign kids in there maybe
    h. Long beach- Had a good French women in the back a couple years ago

    I guess my point is I don't think it is really changing too much yet. There have always been foreign players scattered into the mix and making an impact. There is probably an uptick right now but it seems to be a fairly small one to me?

    2. My question/observation is is. Don't you think that the US might get fewer foreign imports as the women's game continues to grow overseas? My thought is that if the clubs are putting money into it and producing a superior training environment the better European will be more likely to take the path that is known to them and play domestically at the professional level than move overseas? If that it true I just don't see the second tier European kids being good enough to come in and change the collegiate game for quite some time? In all fairness to you, you didn't say US Universities would get them. Just scout them. I agree with that. If there is talent to be had these coaches are competitive enough and have enough money to travel that they will try.
    Just curious as I see it as it as been for a long time.
     
  9. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    As stated above, successful teams blend differing skill sets. Increasingly i am seeing teams recruit skill sets from abroad.

    UCLA, Wake Forest, NC State, Stanford, FSU, UNC, WVU are all enriching their play by adding from abroad. over the last 5 years or so I think it has increased quite a bit. Also, because of academic requirements it is easier to do this at some schools vs others.

    The US College system offers an academic part that no one else does. The top European teams are becoming increasingly international just like the mens game. Unlike the mens, there is no viable U-x league to get game time for young players. Unless a player is truly good enough to get first team minutes, they have to go out on loan to another Club or play in a much lower standard of football than a top College here.

    Cheers.
     
  10. Sophos

    Sophos Member

    Feb 20, 2020
    Fair enough. I've enjoyed thinking about it. As you kind of said in a previous post, I think we generally agree on a lot of things. I just think we are drawing some different lines in the sand per what is significant etc. It's been fun though and made me think about some things I haven't before. Thank you everyone.
     
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  11. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    No lines in the sand for me, just different PoVs a the margin. As long as a person present logic behind it I respect it all. Its additional knowledge. part of why i love the game. There are many ways to look at it.

    Thanks
     
  12. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has been one of the best pure soccer discussions in a very long time. Thank you, all who have posted here.
     
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  13. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Different PoVs, some edge, but no disrespect. Happy to participate in this more often.
     
  14. SuperHyperVenom

    Jan 7, 2019
    From what I see less and less top international players are finding the US attractive for many reasons that have nothing to do with soccer. A lot of overseas players also are not interested in furthering their education and need to make money. Or they want to break into the U19 nat team so they want to stay in their country. In general, it's seen as a step down from pro/semi-pro. A player will learn more playing with older, experienced players than players their own age. The elite international players we know in the US went there for the "lifestyle" - being a college kid like they saw in the movies.

    In regard to the assistant coach that went to TCU and Alabama. Those are hard to sell to international girls. Hard to go from the Netherlands to Alabama or from Paris to a place named Texas CHRISTIAN University.
     
  15. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Varies from country to country and situation to situation. How many top international players are U17 - the usual timetable for making a college decision - breaking into Clubs that will pay them well? Very few. I think in many countries you are overestimating the number of kids that have access to play at a high level at what are critical ages outside of the USA.

    Look at Grace Fisk - https://gamecocksonline.com/sports/womens-soccer/roster/grace-fisk/6210

    Now she is in the England squad and playing for West Ham. Playing here has only advanced her stock. In theory, she is an ideal candidate to have just stayed home. Russo and Wubben Moy are similar. Grace Stanway would be an example of the opposite. The only way more kids stay in Europe would be better pay and a high class vehicle to get regular games. IE if you are not first team ready at 16, College abroad is a great option that gives you an educational alternative without compromising your chances to play professionally later.

    I am unaware of any major federation that does not select players for youth or full teams because they play in US Colleges.
     

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