Premier League - Matchday 8 - Arsenal v Palace - October 18, 2021

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by ArsenalMetro, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I bet Wenger knows that quote
     
  2. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This is a pep/spain thing of Juego de Posicion

    It's not that you can't come out of your zone - e.g in the case of overloads but rather in general for the players to have the correct position/spacing to move the defence around.

    “Positional Play does not consist of passing the ball horizontally, but something much more difficult: it consists of generating superiorities behind each line of pressure. It can be done more or less quickly, more or less vertically, more or less grouped, but the only thing that should be maintained at all times is the pursuit of superiority. Or to put it another way: create free men between the lines.

    Positional Play is a model of constructed play, it is premeditated, thought about, studied and worked out in detail. The interpreters of this form of play know the various possibilities that can occur during the game and also what their roles should be at all times. Naturally, there are better and worse interpretations. There are also players that never manage to adapt to this model of play, which however, are sensational players and they manage to contribute many virtues to their team.

    But in general, the interpreters of this model need to know the catalog of movements that need to be executed in depth. As in any piece of music, one same score gives rise to many different interpretations: faster, slower, more harmonious… more or less a concrete interpretation that you like, but what should be kept in any case is that the tune is similar to the original. Positional Play is a musical score played by each team who practice it at their own pace, but it is essential to generate superiorities behind each line of the opponent pressure. The team that interpreted Positional Play in a most extraordinary way was the Barcelona of Pep Guardiola

    https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/12/25/juego-de-posicion-under-pep-guardiola/
     
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  3. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    This is really the point of constraint limited systems.

    In the playmaker era (peak wenger), players like Pires and Bergkamp created the solutions with creativity, and it was a search for space which was found "in the hole" or wider (pires from the left - see also Ronaldinho). When they got into space they could kill the game with one pass.

    But then defences got very organised (e.g. Jose's aggressive transitions) so that the playmaker faced too much pressure leading to dangerous turnovers and counters.

    This is what Pep really solved at Barca. He had very creative players in Xavi, Iniesta and Messi but he created a system within which they searched for known solutions to problems. (the constraints)

    With pattern recognition, every player knows what they seek, and work together - but then when the opportunity arises (i.e space/breakdown) BANG the creative player will score or open the defence up

    So it isn't taking away their creativity, but constraining it within a set or rules which is really all about effective decision making in split seconds.
     
    daedalus repped this.
  4. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    My concern is that the constraints in Arteta’s system are too limiting, at least for the players available to him. The system works for City when they have or had both Silva’s, de Bruyne, Mahrez, and Grealish as creators, the system may need to be modified when your creators are all 22 or younger.

    There his also an Arteta tweak to the system that I think is counterproductive. Having Lokonga of Odegaard play the Xhaka role where they drop into the space vacated by Tierney does not work for them. I believe the tweak was probably designed, in part, as a way to provide Xhaka time and space to pick his passes, but it leaves space in the center of the pitch. They would be better off closing down the center of the pitch and leaving the space out wide that can be covered by rotation of the back line, or by defensive midfielders who are quicker than Xhaka.
     
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  5. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Agreed

    I mean Arteta just isn't very good compared to the current german generation of managers - IMO

    But maybe he should have managed somewhere like Leipzig or BVB first
     
    daedalus repped this.
  6. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    I prefer jazz interpretations.

    I have already commented on Arteta’s Xhaka tweak. But based on this explanation, it seems to me that this tweak is inconsistent with generating numerical superiorities behind each line of the opponent’s pressure. From that position Xhaka is not going to get into the half spaces between lines, but if Tierney starts out in that space, he still has the wheels and lungs to get into positions that create numerical superiorities behind defenders as play progresses.
     
  7. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    and when it works, it's absolutely stunning.

    unfortunately, with the quality of players we have at the moment, it's tough to execute consistently. it's sort of like putting your money on a specific number in roulette, right? it can work and will hit sometimes but odds are against you.
     

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