Premier League / First Division ratings

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I guess maybe you don't have any extra information about this selection for 1954/55 published in Charles Buchan's Football Monthly (I guess) @CristianoPuskas ?
    Fußballkönig on X: "Duncan Edwards aged 17-18 (!) @KS_8286 ! https://t.co/pOm4gmicMH" / X (twitter.com)
    Matthews (Coventry); Hall (Birmingham), Charles (Leeds), Sillett (Chelsea); Flowers (Wolves), Edwards (Man Utd); Tapscott (Arsenal), Wilshaw (Wolves); Matthews (Blackpool), Revie (Man City), Bluntstone (Chelsea)

    I would think it won't have been formed via player ratings (no averages are shown, but anyway I guess Charles Buchan's Football Monthly won't have been able to send employees to every 1st Division game to make ratings, and I'm assuming The People newspaper was probably the first to do it in England). I guess it could be a selection by Mr Buchan himself, or after a discussion among the staff in general, or formed from a reader's vote (PuckVanHeel found top 10s for each season based on readers votes for the next decade, as alluded to a bit on this thread and as shown in the link below):
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/e...n-selections-1969-2012.1985741/#post-28133529

    Anyway, as shown in my post above two of those players were on the podium for the FWA Player of the Year vote (Revie in 1st, Stanley Matthews in 3rd), with the 2nd place player being Sam Bartram, the Charlton Athletic goalkeeper (which makes me realise that Reg Matthews actually got the goalkeeper's place in that Charles Buchan XI while playing for Coventry in Division 3 South (shortly afterwards he went to Chelsea and played for England though)!
    Reg Matthews - Wikipedia
    Leeds and Birmingham (who were promoted as champions) played in the 2nd Division that season too (so yeah it's not based on 1st Division average ratings for sure).
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've ordered another copy of Match @Pavlin Arnaudov (now I will probably stop buying magazines as I've spent quite a bit overall, but I think this purchase is definitely worth it) that surely has 1995/96 average ratings breakdowns for Forest, Newcastle, QPR, Sheffield Wednesday, and Southampton apparently too (maybe I'd not realised we were missing those), inside
    match9596forestnewcswqprsot.png
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I was thinking of scanning them in, but the scanner isn't working, so I'll just list the top 6 ratings with 20 or more games rated for each club:

    Newcastle: Philippe Albert (7.64, 22 games, 4 star ratings), Peter Beardsley (7.34, 35 games, 7 star ratings), David Ginola (7.26, 34 games, 5 star ratings), Les Ferdinand (7.19, 37 games, 8 star ratings), Steve Watson (7.11, 22 games, 1 star rating), Rob Lee (7.00, 36 games, 5 star ratings)

    Forest: Steve Stone (7.03, 34 games, 8 star ratings), Stuart Pearce (7.00, 31 games, 7 star ratings), Ian Woan (6.91, 33 games, 6 star ratings), Colin Cooper (6.84, 37 games, 4 star ratings), Mark Crossley (6.66, 38 games, 5 star ratings), Chris Bart-Williams (6.58, 33 games, 2 star ratings)

    QPR: Trevor Sinclair (7.03, 37 games, 9 star ratings), Rufus Brevett (6.70, 27 games, 2 star ratings), Danny Maddix (6.60, 22 games, 2 star ratings), Andy Impey (6.59, 29 games, 2 star ratings), Daniele Dichio (6.56, 29 games, 3 star ratings), Alan McDonald (6.56, 26 games, 1 star rating)

    Sheffield Weds: Kevin Pressman (6.90, 30 games, 7 star ratings), Marc Degryse (6.87, 32 games, 9 star ratings), Des Walker (6.81, 36 games, 4 star ratings), Chris Waddle (6.66, 33 games, 5 star ratings), Graham Hyde (6.45, 26 games, 0 star ratings), Ian Nolan (6.41, 29 games, 0 star ratings)

    Southampton: Ken Monkou (6.94, 32 games, 9 star ratings), Richard Hall (6.63, 30 games, 4 star ratings), Jason Dodd (6.59, 37 games, 1 star rating), Dave Beasant (6.56, 36 games, 4 star ratings), Matthew Le Tissier (6.47, 34 games, 7 star ratings), Barry Venison (6.43, 22 games, 2 star ratings).
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So for Match's XI of the season for 1995/96 Albert (now the highest rated player with 20+ rated games and apparently he was the Matchman of the Season too, even though quite a few short of 30 - with DBS Calcio's source he only had 20 exactly otherwise he would've been top-rated listed player on there too albeit with a small gap to Curcic and Shearer and then with Gullit a bit behind - the sources being quite similar though for top-rated players obviously) comes in for Mark Wright, Steve Watson can come in for McAteer (although not all Watson's gamed were played at right back, and he doesn't have many more than 20 overall), and Beardsley comes in for Cantona (who has the same average as Shearer, but Shearer being an outright striker and playing more games should give him the place I guess - Giggs on the other hand stays in but with an average 0.01 above Ginola's):
    ratingssummaryupdate13.png
    The top 3 for Match changes to Albert-Gullit-Dicks....
    playersofseasons7273-9899.png
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Since I can see that vyncy is probably busy with updating DBS Calcio with various ratings for all-time legends and adding some new La Liga ratings from late 90s, early 00s (perhaps more to come) etc, and I'll be starting to concentrate on making some posts on a different thread too soon, I'll just add the Tottenham Shoot magazine squad ratings breakdown for 1989/90 too (again @comme could be interested, especially with it being a high league position season for them) and then we'll be coming back to things re: the ratings being on DBS Calcio in general (other squad summaries available from me in theory though if somebody was particularly eager to know any other ones):

    Gary Mabbutt - 7.11 (36 games)
    Paul Walsh - 7.00 (12 games)
    Gary Lineker - 6.97 (38 games)
    Paul Gascoigne - 6.83 (34 games)
    Paul Allen - 6.79 (29 games)
    Gary Stevens - 6.75 (4 games)
    David Howells - 6.73 (33 games)
    Steve Sedgley - 6.71 (31 games)
    Erik Thorsvtedt - 6.65 (34 games)
    Paul Stewart - 6.58 (24 games)
    Nayim - 6.56 (18 games)
    Vinny Samways - 6.56 (18 games)
    Bobby Mimms - 6.50 (4 games)
    John Moncur - 6.50 (2 games)
    Mitchell Thomas - 6.47 (17 games)
    Chris Hughton - 6.38 (8 games)
    Terry Fenwick - 6.30 (10 games)
    John Polston - 6.27 (11 games)
    Pat van den Hauwe - 6.26 (31 games)
    Gudni Bergsson - 6.24 (17 games)
    Guy Butters - 6.15 (7 games)
     
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  6. Paul W

    Paul W Member

    Oldham Athletic 1990
    England
    Aug 9, 2019
    Hello, I've not had the chance to log on for a while now but glad to see the ratings are still going on, with great work from @PDG1978! I don't think I've found anything new and still nothing for the 'Matchman of the Year' in 1979/80, 1988/89 or 1989/90. I've seen copies of Match for each of those summers and for some reason they don't seem to have published the end of season ratings in those years.

    It would be nice to see the actual summaries for Shoot! ratings from the late 80s/early 90s seasons as well but they also seem hard to find...

    If I find any more ratings, I will post them here.
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nice to see you back Paul, and that you have had I guess chance to browse through all the stuff posted since you were last here (including more Oldham Athletic ratings after vyncy did the breakdown for 1992/93 for example).

    You kicked this Match/Shoot ratings project yourself really, so without you we wouldn't have got close to what we've ended up with obvioiusly....

    Yeah, I'd forgotten or overlooked some of your comments you'd already made about those Matchman of the Year summaries (and squad listings with average ratings), in terms of them not being in any of the summer editions in 1989/1990, so I did try buying an issue or two (unlike for 1996 not successfully obviously though) as well as one of the yearbooks, as you might have seen now too, but there was still some interesting stuff inside those anyway.

    At one point I was getting every issue of Shoot as I was subscribed, and I never remembered there having been final summaries in there, in the late 80s, early 90s, in terms of average ratings. So maybe they didn't bother with that, at least until a bit later potentially, though I could have forgotten I suppose (some things I will have forgotten, but I think I'd possibly have been remembering those, who was top rated player in certain seasons and suchlike too, a bit like I clearly remember league ladders or the fact there was a section with Jimmy Greaves answering readers letters, even if I wouldn't remember the answers, at least until I read them again anyway).
     
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  8. Paul W

    Paul W Member

    Oldham Athletic 1990
    England
    Aug 9, 2019
    Cheers @PDG1978 - I used to have both Match & Shoot! for most of the 80s and it would be nice to complete the set of end-of-season ratings if possible. They were actually great magazines, with plenty of interesting articles and information as well of course their player ratings - I learned a lot from them!

    I'll definitely keep an eye out for anything else of interest.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Great, nice to see you back anyway (though I understand having a break - I post here too much myself I'm sure lol and it can get a bit time-consuming).

    I have a feeling with Shoot (and in effect with Match for 1988/89 and 1989/90 it seems) it might be necessary to collect all the ratings from all the games and do it that way. That's how we could eventually do the Shoot 1989/90 ratings of course (mainly thanks to you, also Pavlin, and I could then buy what was necessary to complete the set when I realised it was available and wouldn't cost a fortune).

    Maybe this is another vaguely Shoot-related post you might like to see (or you might remember even as I know you were reading Shoot around the time of the 1986 World Cup) - the 'predictions' provided before the World Cup started (along with those of various other football publications)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-1986-world-cup.1981497/page-7#post-42183006
    (Basically Shoot, or somebody at Shoot, suggesting Hungary as surprise team and winners too, and thinking France, and Blokhin, would play below expectations I suppose)
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Having continued to check through the newspaper archives (I haven't seen any more additions re: The People's Merit Marks/average ratings though), I've spotted a few interesting things, like reference to Arthur Rowe, Tottenham manager of the 'push and run' team that won the league and cup double in 1950/51 spending time in Hungary (as part of a piece about how English football should change and needed to become more technical/constructive) - I found this page now which alludes to it too:
    How Arthur Rowe changed Spurs forever | TottenhamBlog.com
    I'm aware that Billy Walker, as Nottingham Forest manager, was influenced by Rowe too, so it shows how these things go in circles a bit (considering also Jimmy Hogan's influence on Hungarian football, taking the Scottish style/perhaps older English style concepts over there), although Walker clearly had a preference for passing football and skilled players stemming from his playing days anyway I think.

    I also saw this from November 1967 in the Nottingham Football Post actually (perhaps it was printed in multiple local newspapers though I'm not sure), by Don Revie (whose Leeds teams were fairly said to be a bit 'dirty' at times I guess, but he was nevertheless as a player and manager regarded as a good thinker about the game and players) - picking out Colin Bell and Peter Osgood among young players emerging, while mentioning others including a stack of defenders, and also theorising about what an England attack may look like in 2 years time and suggesting he was inclined to Thompson-Ball-Osgood-Hurst-Bell (I'm guessing he's written it in shirt number order from 7 to 11, so it'd seem like he's placed Bell as left winger or perhaps left midfielder in a similar system as England used in 1966, albeit Peter Thompson was pretty much a pure winger I think anyway - unless Ball is meant to be on the right and Thompson the left...but it seems like Ball as number 8/midfielder/'inside forward' with obviously Osgood and Hurst as a partnership up front):
    revienov67.png
    He'd mentioned in the previous column that conditions in Mexico in the World Cup will suit players with the highest degree of technical skill, and therefore he's be surprised if Bell does not become an England regular soon and that he considers him the most exciting prospect in England and that it was perhaps one of his biggest mistakes when he didn't sign him from Bury (that he continues to explain as you can see)....
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've made a start on calculating all of the Match 1982/83 averages now, with a view to them being available on DBS Calcio. I've got to the point where each 1st Division club has played 12 league games and these are the players who are averaging 7 or above at that point, who have played/been rated in at least 50% of the games:

    Alan Devonshire (West Ham) - 7.75 (12 games)
    Mark Chamberlain (Stoke) - 7.67 (12 games)
    Mickey Thomas (Stoke) - 7.64 (11 games)
    Sammy Lee (Liverpool) - 7.58 (12 games)
    Garry Birtles (Forest) - 7.50 (8 games)
    Peter Shilton (Southampton) - 7.50 (10 games)
    Luther Blissett (Watford) - 7.50 (12 games)
    Asa Hartford (Man City) - 7.45 (11 games)
    Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 7.42 (12 games)
    Gary Brooke (Tottenham) - 7.36 (11 games)
    Gary Mabbutt (Tottenham) - 7.30 (10 games)
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Mal Donaghy (Luton) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Ricky Hill (Luton) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Brian Stein (Luton) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Phil Parkes (West Ham) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Paul Goddard (West Ham) - 7.25 (12 games)
    Peter Withe (Aston Villa) - 7.20 (10 games)
    Eric Gates (Ipswich) - 7.18 (11 games)
    Steve McMahon (Everton) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Russell Osman (Ipswich) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Alan Kennedy (Liverpool) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Brian Horton (Luton) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Alexander Williams (Man City) - 7.17 (6 games)
    Billy Bonds (West Ham) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Alvin Martin (West Ham) - 7.17 (12 games)
    Jake Findley (Luton) - 7.11 (11 games)
    Adrian Heath (Everton) - 7.10 (10 games)
    Ian Rush (Everton) - 7.09 (11 games)
    Gary Owen (West Brom) - 7.09 (11 games)
    Dennis Mortimer (Aston Villa) - 7.08 (12 games)
    Terry Butcher (Ipswich) - 7.08 (12 games)
    Mick Buckley (Sunderland) - 7.08 (12 games)
    Nigel Callaghan (Watford) - 7.08 (12 games)
    Gerry Francis (Coventry) - 7.00 (9 games)
    Les Sealey (Coventry) - 7.00 (10 games)
    Paul Cooper (Ipswich) - 7.00 (8 games)
    Paul Mariner (Ipswich) - 7.00 (11 games)
    Bruce Grobbelaar (Liverpool) - 7.00 (12 games)
    Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool) - 7.00 (11 games)
    David Hodgson (Liverpool) - 7.00 (6 games)
    Bryan Robson (Man Utd) - 7.00 (12 games)
    Hans van Breukelen (Forest) - 7.00 (10 games)
    Rachid Harkouk (Notts County) - 7.00 (8 games)
    Peter Fox (Stoke) - 7.00 (8 games)
    Sammy McIlroy (Stoke) - 7.00 (12 games)
    Tony Galvin (Tottenham) - 7.00 (6 games)
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    ....I've got up to Christmas 1982 now with those Match 1982/83 ratings, with 19 games played by each club, and now these are the ones with a rating of 7 or above and more than 50% (at least 10) games played:

    Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 7.68 (19 games)
    Mark Chamberlain (Stoke) - 7.58 (19 games)
    Mickey Thomas (Stoke) - 7.50 (18 games)
    Luther Blissett (Watford) - 7.44 (18 games)
    Alan Devonshire (West Ham) - 7.44 (16 games)
    Asa Hartford (Man City) - 7.41 (18 games)
    Gary Brooke (Tottenham) - 7.40 (15 games)
    Sammy Lee (Liverpool) - 7.37 (19 games)
    Ian Rush (Liverpool) - 7.33 (18 games)
    Brian Horton (Luton) - 7.32 (19 games)
    Phil Parkes (West Ham) - 7.32 (19 games)
    Craig Johnston (Liverpool) - 7.27 (11 games)
    Garry Birtles (Forest) - 7.27 (15 games)
    Peter Shilton (Southampton) - 7.25 (16 games)
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool) - 7.21 (19 games)
    Bryan Robson (Man Utd) - 7.21 (19 games)
    Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham) - 7.20 (10 games)
    Peter Withe (Aston Villa) - 7.18 (17 games)
    Nigel Callaghan (Watford) - 7.16 (19 games)
    Billy Bonds (West Ham) - 7.13 (16 games)
    Alvin Martin (West Ham) - 7.12 (17 games)
    Ricky Hill (Luton) - 7.11 (19 games)
    Peter Fox (Stoke) - 7.08 (12 games)
    Mal Donaghy (Luton) - 7.06 (18 games)
    Ray Clemence (Tottenham) - 7.06 (18 games)
    Gary Mabbutt (Tottenham) - 7.06 (17 games)
    Alan Kennedy (Liverpool) - 7.05 (19 games)
    Allan Evans (Aston Villa) - 7.00 (16 games)
    Dennis Mortimer (Aston Villa) - 7.00 (18 games)
    Les Sealey (Coventry) - 7.00 (16 games)
    Bruce Grobbelaar (Liverpool) - 7.00 (19 games)
    Alan Hansen (Liverpool) - 7.00 (12 games)
    Brian Stein (Luton) - 7.00 (18 games)
    Colin Todd (Forest) - 7.00 (13 games)
    John Barnes (Watford) - 7.00 (19 games)
    Paul Goddard (West Ham) - 7.00 (19 games)
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Also in the top 2 rated players for their clubs at that point (with 10+ games) were:
    Arsenal - Tony Woodcock - 6.94 (18 games), Paul Davis - 6.89 (18 games)
    Birmingham - Kevin Dillon - 6.60 (15 games), Noel Blake - 6.50 (14 games)
    Brighton - Gerry Ryan - 6.70 (10 games), Neil McNab & Gordon Smith - 6.69 (13 games)
    Coventry - Paul Dyson - 6.84 (19 games)
    Everton - Steve McMahon - 6.89 (19 games), Adrian Heath - 6.71 (17 games)
    Ipswich - Terry Butcher - 6.95 (19 games), Eric Gates - 6.89 (18 games)
    Man City - Tommy Caton - 6.68 (19 games)
    Man Utd - Steve Coppell - 6.94 (16 games)
    Norwich - Martin O'Neill & Chris Woods - 6.89 (19 games)
    Notts County - John Chiedozie & Brian Kilcline - 6.79 (19 games)
    Southampton - Steve Williams - 6.89 (18 games)
    Sunderland - Mick Buckley - 6.94 (16 games), Shaun Elliott - 6.86 (14 games)
    Swansea - Alan Curtis - 6.92 (13 games), Robbie James - 6.64 (19 games)
    West Brom - Mark Grew - 6.90 (10 games), Martyn Bennett - 6.83 (12 games)
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm realising an error I made with this post now though - Dave Watson can be erased from the list because the one among the top-rated defenders with Match was Dave/David Watson of Stoke (formerly an England International), and the one among the top-rated defenders with The People clearly seems to be Dave Watson (who would feature in later years like I mentioned) of Norwich.

    I must've scanned the People's listing a bit too quick or something, but it definitely seems to be the Norwich player
    8283peopleratings-png.232012 (980×546)
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-38#post-41891029
    While Paul W posted this Match end of season summary that has the Stoke player up there
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-19#post-40463848
    [​IMG]
    And at Christmas I've calculated the Stoke player is indeed on 6.94 (from 16 games), while the Norwich player is down on an average of 6.21 (from 14 games). One of the bigger cases of different ratings between different sources probably (with the players happening to have the same name too!), but yeah my mistake on that combined ratings summary originally. Maybe it's not a bad thing to in effect re-post these things while I'm posting about the 1982/83 Match ratings again anyway, as it makes for easy access for anyone reading....
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The Norwich Dave Watson did win the Norwich Supporters Player of the Season award anyway too:
    Norwich City F.C. Player of the Season - Wikipedia

    Perhaps with Match his ratings will end up quite a bit higher than they are at Christmas at least, but we'll see (there had been a trend in that direction approaching Christmas already although a dip over the end of year period).

    Over the remaining 1982 games (and the last fixtures of the first half of the season) Devonshire did get an 8 and a 9, but his average is still below Dalglish's (who had a 9 himself, then another one on New Years Day).

    Among other movements Robson's average went down slightly at the end of the year (as did Hoddle's for example, to exactly 7, and Colin Todd's which fell below John Robertson's at the end of the year as far as Forest players are concerned I noticed; ex-Forest player Peter Ward would be Brighton's top-rated player with 50% of their games played at that point because he then had enough games, as well as good ratings with Match in the last games of the year too - his two Forest ratings earlier had been low so bring down his overall average very slightly though). John Barnes went up at the end of the year a bit for example (him and Robson nearly meeting in the middle but Robson still being slightly ahead).
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Alan Hansen is the other one whose average rose a decent amount in the remaining games of 1982. On the other hand the averages of Mabbutt, Evans, Mortimer, Sealey, Grobbelaar and Goddard fell just below 7 before the New Year.

    Martin O'Neill's average went to exactly 7, as did Paul Cooper's, while Terry Butcher's was even a bit above that as on my spreadsheet it's also 7 but I realise one game had been played early (I didn't spot it at first so I'll record it where it should have been played in theory according to the initial fixture list, on my spreadsheet, on gameday 23, as it's simpler not to squeeze it in earlier) - Coventry vs Ipswich (Butcher got an 8 from Match, as did Dyson of Coventry but his average at New Year would still be slightly below 7):
    Matchfacts (@Matchfacts1) / X
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm up to the end of February now, and these are the top two rated players for each club with 13 or more games (around 50% - different clubs have played different amounts of games at this point though):
    Arsenal: Tony Woodcock - 6.92 (25 games), John Hollins - 6.84 (19 games)
    Aston Villa: Peter Withe - 7.00 (25 games), Gordon Cowans - 6.93 (28 games)
    Birmingham: Kevin Dillon - 6.78 (23 games), Noel Blake - 6.68 (22 games)
    Brighton: Steve Foster - 6.83 (23 games), Neil McNab - 6.69 (13 games)
    Coventry: Les Sealey - 7.04 (25 games), Paul Dyson - 6.93 (28 games)
    Everton: Steve McMahon - 6.96 (25 games), Kevin Sheedy - 6.77 (26 games)
    Ipswich: Terry Butcher - 7.07 (28 games), Russell Osman (28 games) & Paul Cooper (21 games) - 7.00
    Liverpool: Kenny Dalglish - 7.54 (28 games), Sammy Lee - 7.36 (28 games)
    Luton: Brian Horton - 7.37 (27 games), Ricky Hill - 7.22 (27 games)
    Man City: Asa Hartford - 7.22 (27 games), Tommy Caton - 6.60 (25 games)
    Man Utd: Bryan Robson - 7.08 (26 games), Steve Coppell - 6.96 (23 games)
    N. Forest: Garry Birtles - 7.18 (22 games), Hans van Breukelen - 6.93 (14 games)
    Norwich: Martin O'Neill - 7.04 (25 games), Chris Woods - 6.85 (27 games)
    Notts County: John Chiedozie - 6.64 (28 games), Raddy Avramovic - 6.63 (27 games)
    Southampton: Peter Shilton - 7.16 (26 games), Steve Williams - 6.82 (28 games)
    Stoke: Mark Chamberlain - 7.54 (24 games), Mickey Thomas - 7.31 (26 games)
    Sunderland: Chris Turner - 6.89 (27 games), Mick Buckley - 6.83 (18 games)
    Swansea: Alan Curtis - 6.79 (19 games), Robbie James - 6.67 (27 games)
    Tottenham: Gary Brooke - 7.27 (22 games), Glenn Hoddle - 7.00 (15 games)
    Watford: Luther Blissett - 7.31 (26 games), Nigel Callaghan - 7.07 (27 games)
    West Brom: Martyn Bennett - 6.95 (20 games), Romeo Zondervan - 6.69 (29 games)
    West Ham: Alan Devonshire - 7.38 (24 games), Phil Parkes - 7.22 (27 games)
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    As a bonus here are all players not named above who had a rating over 7 at that stage (end of February 1982) with Match as well, who had at least 7 games (around 25%):
    Terry Curran (Everton) - 7.57 (7 games)
    Mark Harrison (Stoke) - 7.29 (7 games)
    Nigel Spink (Aston Villa) - 7.25 (8 games)
    Ian Rush (Liverpool) - 7.23 (26 games)
    Peter Fox (Stoke) - 7.20 (20 games)
    Craig Johnston (Liverpool) - 7.17 (18 games)
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool) - 7.14 (28 games)
    Mark Walters (Aston Villa) - 7.11 (9 games)
    Alan Hansen (Liverpool) - 7.10 (20 games)
    Mal Donaghy (Luton) - 7.08 (25 games)
    John Barnes (Watford) - 7.04 (27 games)
    Rachid Harkouk (Notts County) - 7.00 (8 games)
    Pat Jennings (Arsenal) - 7.00 (10 games)
    Alan Kennedy (Liverpool) - 7.00 (28 games)
    Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool) - 7.00 (26 games)
    Brian Stein (Luton) - 7.00 (19 games)
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    February 1983 that should say sorry, of course (1982/83).
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1070 PDG1978, Nov 24, 2024
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2024
    I've completed the task of entering all the Match 1982/83 ratings and calculating the averages now. There are some cases where a player has a different average to what was published in the final summary (including with Robson who Pavlin had mentioned already, and Dalglish whose average I had specifically calculated earlier in the thread too) as well as the ones where the average is identical. I don't seem to find any cases where the average isn't at least close to where they showed it though; it can be like Paul W mentioned that small mistakes could be made when only using a calculator and perhaps even counting up numbers in the head initially too, although I started to wonder (even though I don't think it's important or worth trying to verify the theory) whether maybe they kept lists of updated averages throughout the season and rounded them each time - rather than working everything out at the end before publishing the final results, even though they had some time because the final results were not produced as soon as the season ended as Paul has shown.

    Anyway, I make it that this is the list of players who ended with at least 50% of games played/rated and a rating of 6.75 or higher:
    Alan Devonshire (West Ham) - 7.44 (39 games)
    Sammy Lee (Liverpool) - 7.35 (40 games)
    Mark Chamberlain (Stoke) - 7.35 (37 games)
    Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 7.31 (42 games)
    Mickey Thomas (Stoke) - 7.29 (41 games)
    Gary Brooke (Tottenham) - 7.27 (22 games)
    Ian Rush (Liverpool) - 7.26 (34 games)
    Luther Blissett (Watford) - 7.24 (41 games)
    Ricky Hill (Luton) - 7.17 (42 games)
    Peter Fox (Stoke) - 7.14 (35 games)
    Brian Horton (Luton) - 7.13 (40 games)
    Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham) - 7.13 (23 games)
    John Barnes (Watford) - 7.12 (42 games)
    Asa Hartford (Man City) - 7.11 (38 games)
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool) - 7.10 (41 games)
    Nigel Callaghan (Watford) - 7.10 (41 games)
    Garry Birtles (Forest) - 7.08 (25 games)
    Craig Johnston (Liverpool) - 7.03 (32 games)
    Bryan Robson (Man Utd) - 7.03 (33 games)
    Peter Withe (Aston Villa) - 7.00 (35 games)
    Terry Butcher (Ipswich) - 7.00 (42 games)
    Viv Anderson (Forest) - 7.00 (25 games)
    Peter Shilton (Southampton) - 7.00 (39 games)
    Phil Parkes (West Ham) - 7.00 (42 games)
    Kevin Sheedy (Everton) - 6.98 (40 games)
    Alan Kennedy (Liverpool) - 6.98 (42 games)
    Paul Walsh (Luton) - 6.98 (41 games)
    Steve McMahon (Everton) - 6.97 (34 games)
    Martin O'Neill (Norwich) - 6.97 (35 games)
    Chris Turner (Sunderland) - 6.97 (35 games)
    Martyn Bennett (West Brom) - 6.96 (23 games)
    Gordon Cowans (Aston Villa) - 6.95 (42 games)
    David Hodgson (Liverpool) - 6.95 (21 games)
    Dave Bennett (Norwich) - 6.95 (22 games)
    Dave Watson (Stoke) - 6.94 (35 games)
    Chris Woods (Norwich) - 6.93 (42 games)
    Sammy McIlroy (Stoke) - 6.93 (41 games)
    Steve Williams (Southampton) - 6.92 (39 games)
    Alan Hansen (Liverpool) - 6.91 (34 games)
    Les Sealey (Coventry) - 6.90 (39 games)
    Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool) - 6.90 (40 games)
    Mal Donaghy (Luton) - 6.90 (40 games)
    Alvin Martin (West Ham) - 6.89 (38 games)
    Tony Woodcock (Arsenal) - 6.88 (34 games)
    Ray Clemence (Tottenham) - 6.88 (41 games)
    Allan Evans (Aston Villa) - 6.87 (39 games)
    Chris Hughton (Tottenham) - 6.87 (38 games)
    Paul Miller (Tottenham) - 6.87 (23 games)
    Les Taylor (Watford) 6.87 (38 games)
    Paul Mariner (Ipswich) - 6.86 (37 games)
    Russell Osman (Ipswich) - 6.84 (38 games)
    Steve Foster (Brighton) - 6.83 (36 games)
    Steve Coppell (Man Utd) - 6.83 (29 games)
    Gary Shaw (Aston Villa) - 6.82 (39 games)
    Nigel Spink (Aston Villa) - 6.82 (22 games)
    Frans Thijssen (Ipswich) - 6.82 (28 games)
    John Robertson (Forest) - 6.82 (34 games)
    John Deehan (Norwich) - 6.82 (39 games)
    Paul Goddard (West Ham) - 6.82 (39 games)
    Ray Wilkins (Man Utd) - 6.81 (26 games)
    Ian Atkins (Sunderland) - 6.81 (37 games)
    Gary Mabbutt (Tottenham) - 6.81 (37 games)
    Danny Thomas (Coventry) - 6.78 (41 games)
    Kirk Stephens (Luton) - 6.78 (40 games)
    Derek Statham (West Brom) - 6.78 (32 games)
    Dennis Mortimer (Aston Villa) - 6.77 (39 games)
    Paul Cooper (Ipswich) - 6.77 (35 games)
    Jake Findlay (Luton) - 6.77 (26 games)
    Ian Painter (Stoke) - 6.77 (22 games)
    Ken McNaught (Aston Villa) - 6.76 (41 games)
    Hans van Breukelen (Forest) - 6.76 (25 games)
    Andy King (Everton) - 6.75 (24 games)
    Robbie James (Swansea) - 6.75 (40 games)

    I'm not changing the Match XI (that they presented themselves as shown by Paul) on the Ratings Summary Table spreadsheet, so it stays as Fox; Anderson, Bennett, Butcher, Kennedy; Lee, Devonshire, M.Thomas; Chamberlain, Rush, Dalglish. Although in subsequent years they were requiring 30 games played not 20, so if putting that as the criteria I guess Watson of Stoke would be in for Bennett of West Brom, and taking Viv Anderson's position might be Kirk Stephens of Luton (since Hughton played predominantly as left-back this season I think, and Danny Thomas at least sometimes in midfield although I haven't yet finalised a recommendation for the roles of Coventry players on DBS Calcio).

    So yeah Devonshire as 'Matchman of the Year' based on the average rating is verified. He did play more as midfielder (as opposed to outright winger) in this season than in many of his seasons I tend to think still and sometimes West Ham probably used more like a 4-3-3 than 4-4-2 too, although actually for his DBS Calcio role I'm still suggesting ACS (left wing/midfielder) and 4-4-2 for their system as I think in essence they mostly played with that shape from what I can tell (Van der Elst mostly as right winger), and with Devonshire more often that not the one lining up furthest left in midfield still. Match possibly thought that it was ok to just put 3 'midfielders' in their XI anyway, although I don't know it'd be any more satisfactory/representative to put in Brooke (only 22 games) or Hill (just about as much right midfielder/AM as Devonshire was left midfielder/AM this season it seems anyway) and take out Mickey Thomas for example, and they included the ones with clearly the highest averages.
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1071 PDG1978, Nov 24, 2024
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2024
    New, and longer, list of People/Match combined 1982/83 1st Division average ratings, showing numbers of games/ratings as per Match.

    Goalkeepers
    Peter Shilton (Southampton, 39 games) - 7.09
    Peter Fox (Stoke, 35 games) - 6.97
    Chris Turner (Sunderland, 35 games) - 6.92
    Phil Parkes (West Ham, 42 games) - 6.92
    Chris Woods (Norwich, 42 games) - 6.84
    Paul Cooper (Ipswich, 35 games) - 6.74
    Bruce Grobbelaar (Liverpool, 42 games) - 6.71
    Ray Clemence (Tottenham, 41 games) - 6.62 (maybe I have some doubts that his People average wasn't meant to be shown as 6.65 though, or 6.55, instead of 6.35, given that there is a big gap between Grobbelaar and him/every other GK on their final list)

    Defenders
    Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool, 40 games) - 6.99
    Derek Statham (West Brom, 32 games) - 6.87
    Alan Kennedy (Liverpool, 42 games) - 6.87
    Ian Atkins (Sunderland, 37 games) - 6.85
    Alvin Martin (West Ham, 38 games) - 6.85
    Allan Evans (Aston Villa, 39 games) - 6.84
    Dave Watson (Norwich, 35 games) - 6.79
    Phil Neal (Liverpool, 42 games) - 6.78
    Kenny Sansom (Arsenal, 40 games) - 6.76
    Billy Bonds (West Ham, 34 games) - 6.74
    George Burley (Ipswich, 31 games) - 6.71

    Midfielders
    Alan Devonshire (West Ham, 39 games) - 7.27
    Mickey Thomas (Stoke, 41 games) - 7.24
    Bryan Robson (Man Utd, 33 games) - 7.16
    Sammy Lee (Liverpool, 40 games) - 7.16
    Graeme Souness (Liverpool, 41 games) - 7.08
    Ricky Hill (Luton, 42 games) - 7.04
    Brian Horton (Luton, 40 games) - 7.03
    Gordon Cowans (Aston Villa, 42 games) - 6.98
    Asa Hartford (Man City, 38 games) - 6.96
    Martin O'Neill (Norwich, 35 games) - 6.93
    Steve Williams (Southampton, 39 games) - 6.86
    Les Taylor (Watford, 38 games) - 6.84
    Dennis Mortimer (Aston Villa, 39 games) - 6.80
    Gary Owen (West Brom, 38 games) - 6.75
    John Wark (Ipswich, 42 games) - 6.67

    Forwards
    Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool, 42 games) - 7.39
    Luther Blissett (Watford, 41 games) - 7.29
    Mark Chamberlain (Stoke, 35 games) - 7.18
    Nigel Callaghan (Watford, 41 games) - 7.13
    John Barnes (Watford, 42 games) - 7.04
    Ian Rush (Liverpool, 34 games) - 6.99
    Paul Walsh (Luton, 41 games) - 6.93
    Peter Withe (Aston Villa, 35 games) - 6.90
    Paul Mariner (Ipswich, 37 games) - 6.88
    Alan Brazil (Ipswich/Tottenham, 40 games) - 6.70
    Ian Wallace (Forest, 41 games) - 6.66
    Norman Whiteside (Man Utd, 39 games) - 6.63

    So probably a combined XI could be Shilton; Neal, Lawrenson, Martin, Kennedy; Chamberlain, Souness, Robson, Devonshire; Dalglish, Blissett in a 4-4-2 (or 4-3-3), although then Lee and Thomas would be unlucky (I haven't finalised a recommendation for Stoke's DBS Calcio roles yet but I think Thomas will be in Devonshire's role and is in effect an option for the same slot in an XI maybe even if both were in the Match XI; meanwhile Lee and Chamberlain are both right wingers in essence although Lee sometimes played in more of a 4-3-1-2 with Dalglish in the hole, and Chamberlain was more of a forward and sometimes/often (arguably maybe) playing in a 4-3-3 or asymmetrical 4-3-3 I think). Souness and Robson are both being recommended to be MCC on DBS Calcio by me though for that matter (but it's arguable in Robson's case - Moses and Wilkins both as the INCs, rather than Robson, seemed a decent call though I thought). Atkins and Statham could be missing out on games played then in that case (I haven't tried to be very very precise on rounding the averages to see which was higher when they are tied basically).

    The players listed in Match's end of season summary, that weren't on The People's one, are Les Sealey, Jimmy Rimmer, Gary Bailey, Nigel Spink, Terry Butcher, Viv Anderson, Martyn Bennett, Dave Watson of Stoke, Mal Donaghy, Alan Hansen, Gary Brooke, Glenn Hoddle, Craig Johnston, Garry Birtles and Brian Stein (who with 20 games isn't on the Match summary above either, but his Match average by my calculations came to 6.95; same case with Rimmer whose calculated average was 6.85 with Match, exactly the same as published in his case). Of those, I think Rimmer, Spink, Anderson, Bennett, Brooke, Hoddle, Birtles and Stein probably didn't have enough appearances to be listed on The People's end of season summary (but to be fair in most years Match had an even higher requirement for games played and this season is an exception to that normal rule that came in the next season IIRC).
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Players that were in the top 2 rated players for their clubs, with 50%+ games played/rated, with Match, but not with an average of 6.75 or above so not on the list I made earlier:
    Arsenal: Kenny Sansom - 6.70 (40 games)
    Birmingham: Kevin Dillon - 6.74 (27 games), Noel Blake - 6.65 (37 games)
    Brighton: Gary Stevens - 6.59 (41 games)
    Man City: Joe Corrigan - 6.54 (24 games)
    Notts County: John Chiedozie - 6.67 (39 games), Raddy Avramovic - 6.64 (36 games)
    Swansea: Dudley Lewis - 6.48 (23 games)
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    As I bought a couple of Match issues, so we could have the full verified Match average ratings (two of the issues posted on Twitter had some tabs obscuring some grades) I can reveal a listing for the April Matchman of the Month for the 1st Division too (thanks to Paul we could already see Barham had won that):
    Mark Barham (Norwich) - 7.80 (5 games)
    Paul Walsh (Luton) - 7.71 (7 games)
    John Deehan (Norwich) - 7.71 (7 games)
    Sammy McIlroy (Stoke) - 7.60 (5 games)
    Dave Watson (Norwich) - 7.57 (7 games)
    John Robertson (Forest) - 7.50 (6 games)
    John Barnes (Watford) - 7.50 (6 games)
    Chris Woods (Norwich) - 7.42 (7 games)


    Other interesting things from that issue I can add:

    Out of 12 managers asked 7 said the British player they'd most like to sign would be Bryan Robson, including the 3 1st Division managers asked, from Everton, Coventry and Sunderland, plus the managers of Oldham, Orient, Newport and York. Carlisle's manager chose his own player, similarly named Bryan 'Pop' Robson, Wolves' manager said Gary Lineker, Port Vale's manager said Frank Stapleton, Lincoln's manager chose Peter Shilton (suggesting most managers would probably choose a midfield player "like Robson" or striker "like Charlie Nicholas or Ian Rush"), and Dave Bassett at Wimbledon chose John Barnes, saying he was a better long-term investment than a Keegan or Dalglish.

    Hans van Breukelen's current British XI: Shilton; Anderson, Todd, Butcher, Sansom; Coppell, Robson, Keegan, Robertson; Chamberlain, Mariner
     
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  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I think it could be a while before DBS Calcio has the ratings on for 1982/83 (and 1989/90) as it's in the close season periods when vyncy has more time, because as well as the various old ratings discovered (and some have lately been added for various leagues, with a good breakdown for many of the older legends available now) DBS Calcio also keeps a real-time ratings summary for ongoing current leagues of today of course.

    But I think I can reveal what the probable 'DBS Calcio XI' for 1st Division 1982/83 will be in effect anyway (with the top-rated player with Match ratings for each role on the system), assuming vyncy is happy with my set of recommendations for designated systems and player roles. If so 12 of the teams should be set to a 4-4-2 formation this time, with Tottenham, Ipswich, Sunderland and Brighton set to 4-3-1-2, West Brom, Stoke, Norwich and Coventry set to 4-3-3, and Southampton and Swansea set to 3-4-3. So considering players with at least 50% of games played/rated (the ones that appear on the 'Media Voto' listing) it should be:
    P: Peter Fox (Stoke)
    TLD: Viv Anderson (Forest)
    TLS: Alan Kennedy (Liverpool)
    MCC: Gary Brooke (Tottenham)
    SCD: Terry Butcher (Ipswich)
    LCD: Alan Hansen (Liverpool)
    ACD: Mark Chamberlain (Stoke) - I listed Sammy Lee higher on the summary list, and he has more appearances, but rounding to more decimal places Chamberlain's rating is higher
    INC: Asa Hartford (Man City)
    C: Ian Rush (LIverpool)
    ACS: Alan Devonshire (West Ham)
    SP: Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool)
     
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