Premier League / First Division ratings

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017

    Syd Owen 137 votes, Billy Wright 134, Bobby Charlton 34, Johnny Haynes 22, Brian Clough 13, Billy Liddell 12.
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1002 PDG1978, Jan 22, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2024
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-25#post-41204196
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-26#post-41211839
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-32#post-41508888
    (I should have written Waddle's name on that post too
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-40#post-41949009
    (That post makes a correction, with Peake and not Proctor cited as the Middlesbrough midfielder now)

    I'm not sure I'm 100% convinced, but I am more inclined to think the second forward in the final People list for 92/93 is Gallacher, of Coventry and Blackburn, rather than Sheringham of Forest and Tottenham (Spurs) now.
    The text seems more feasible as Gallacher (B'Burn/Cov.) rather than Sheringham (N'Forest/Spurs) I think (they didn't even write N.Forest for Woan's entry either, just Forest). I don't think it can be Cantona (Leeds/Man Utd) or Saunders (L'Pool/Villa), albeit Cantona is among the top-rated players with Match and Saunders had been second with The People at halfway (without Liverpool being included at that stage on the mid-season standings page next to his name anyway), and I was previously kind of assuming it might be Sheringham but it never really seemed like it definitely was. I can add a note about the Match ratings for these players too, while I make the post - Cantona's I've already revealed at 7.20 for his 2 club average (slightly higher Man Utd average than Leeds average), so I can add that (subject to any slight correction that might be applied still - maybe there won't be any for these players but vyncy would let me know if so via a final spreadsheet version) Gallacher has 6.65 from 20 games for Coventry and 7.11 from 9 games for Blackburn, Saunders has 6.67 from 6 games for Liverpool and 6.49 from 35 games for Aston Villa (I wouldn't be surprised if his People average with Villa was higher than his Liverpool one I don't think...but I guess the mid-season average did include his Liverpool games too), and Sheringham has 6.33 from 3 games for Forest and 6.71 from 38 games for Tottenham.

    I can therefore add a probable entry of Kevin Gallacher (Coventry/Blackburn) - 7.02 to the forwards section here.

    So here's a further re-post of the ratings summary table, with a People 92/93 XI of Flowers; Barton, Monkou, Watson, Ruddock; Ince; Strachan, Wilkins; Samways; Gallacher, Shearer
    ratingssummaryupdate13.png
    Comparing to the PFA Team of the Year therefore, the ones from Match's XI who were in it were McGrath, Keane, Ince and Giggs, and the ones from the People's XI Ince again and Shearer, with Schmeichel, Bardsley, Pallister, Dorigo, Speed and Ian Wright in the PFA Team but not Match or People ratings XIs. The PFA votes for players and team of the season were done particularly early that season apparently, not very long after the middle of the season I think (like Alan Hansen had mentioned in his piece that I made a post about).
    I haven't worked out the mid-season Match XI (in theory I could using vyncy's work, but it'd take too long for what it adds maybe) but The People's mid-season XI was (if allowing 2 right backs and 2 centre backs - I haven't established it yet for definite with Stockwell as I've not looked back at Ipswich yet, but IIRC he was right back, and for sure Barrett was mostly this season) Mimms; Stockwell, Barrett, McGrath, Ruddock; Wark; Strachan, Wilkins; Parker; Saunders, Shearer I suppose (so just with McGrath and Shearer from the PFA Team, albeit as mentioned Saunders was on the 6 player PFA Player of the Year shortlist too).
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    There are just a couple of minor issues to tidy up I think, but @vyncy has done a great job again, firstly entering all the ratings and then publishing them on DBS Calcio for that 1992/93 Premier League season.

    For other seasons, at this point, I copied a top 50 into the thread I remember, but I basically already listed more than 50 players in my previous post, so I think it's better to copy the top of the positional lists instead; I'll start with the top 10 rated goalkeepers with 50%+ rated games i.e 21 or more rated appearances (10 is the number of names that can be shown with the club badge in on post on Big Soccer), with the Match Magazine ratings which are now incorporated into the DBS Calcio data (and the numbers below are the adjusted DBS Calcio numbers, brought down into line with 'Italian standard' as always), then I'll follow likewise with posts for top 5s for the central defender positions, full positions, central midfield positions, winger positions and finally the central forward positions....

    There is just one team, Ipswich Town, that have been allocated a formation that isn't 4-4-2 - they're given 4-3-1-2, the same as their 1980/81 system, as I think the most representative for this season too for them. That means their first choice team is considered to have Wark as anchor midfielder, Williams as right/central midfielder (ACD on DBS Calcio for the 4-3-1-2), Johnson as left/central midfielder (INC on DBS Calcio), Dozzell as attacking midfielder (ACS on DBS Calcio for their system), behind Goddard or Boncho Guentchev, and the player allocated as the striker Kiwomya. Williams did act more like a midfielder than winger (and in some games, including when they played 4-3-1-2 with Wark in central defence and him as the MCC in effect, he was more a true central midfielder), but he has a high enough average rating to make it into the top 5 ACDs (the other players being always, or more often than not, playing as right wingers in 4-4-2 systems).


    Ok, so the Top 10 Goalkeepers
    1 [​IMG] 6.833 Neville Southall
    2 [​IMG] 6.690 Bryan Gunn
    3 [​IMG] 6.531 Alan Kelly
    4 [​IMG] 6.475 Tony Coton
    5 [​IMG] 6.463 Erik Thorstvedt
    6 [​IMG] 6.431 David James
    7 [​IMG] 6.405 Nigel Martyn
    8 [​IMG] 6.397 Chris Woods
    9 [​IMG] 6.339 Clive Baker
    10 [​IMG] 6.310 Peter Schmeichel
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Centre Backs

    LCD ('Sweeper')
    1 [​IMG] 6.881 Paul McGrath
    2 [​IMG] 6.775 Dave Watson
    3 [​IMG] 6.744 Colin Hendry
    4 [​IMG] 6.719 Mark Wright
    5 [​IMG] 6.688 John Scales

    SCD ('Stopper')
    1 [​IMG] 6.781 Steve Nicol
    2 [​IMG] 6.738 Steve Bruce
    3 [​IMG] 6.658 Neil Ruddock
    4 [​IMG] 6.652 Ken Monkou
    5 [​IMG] 6.650 Gary Ablett
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    (Side Backs)

    TLD (Right Backs)
    1 [​IMG] 6.700 Rob Jones
    2 [​IMG] 6.468 Paul Parker
    3 [​IMG] 6.325 David Bardsley
    4 [​IMG] 6.204 Matt Jackson
    5 [​IMG] 6.196 Warren Barton

    TLS (Left Backs)
    1 [​IMG] 6.660 Andy Hinchcliffe
    2 [​IMG] 6.457 Stuart Pearce
    3 [​IMG] 6.449 Denis Irwin
    4 [​IMG] 6.350 Clive Wilson
    5 [​IMG] 6.292 Alan Wright
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Central Midfielders

    MCC ('Anchor midfielders')
    1 [​IMG] 6.866 Paul Ince
    2 [​IMG] 6.775 Roy Keane
    3 [​IMG] 6.707 Jamie Redknapp
    4 [​IMG] 6.636 Gary Megson
    5 [​IMG] 6.433 David Batty

    INC ('Attacking midfielders')
    1 [​IMG] 6.738 Mike Milligan
    2 [​IMG] 6.603 Ray Wilkins
    3 [​IMG] 6.500 Ian Crook
    4 [​IMG] 6.400 Don Hutchison
    5 [​IMG] 6.310 Brian McClair

    I remember that I had forgotten to say before that therefore for a DBS Calcio XI with one player per role there is another difference here to what I had had as the Match Magazine XI on my spreadsheet - Milligan in the XI rather than Keane....
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Wingers/Wide Midfielders

    ACD (Right Midfield)
    1 [​IMG] 6.882 Ruel Fox
    2 [​IMG] 6.446 Geraint Williams
    3 [​IMG] 6.406 Chris Waddle
    4 [​IMG] 6.395 Stuart Ripley
    5 [​IMG] 6.381 Eddie McGoldrick

    ACS (Left Midfield)
    1 [​IMG] 6.695 Ryan Giggs
    2 [​IMG] 6.538 Ian Woan
    3 [​IMG] 6.524 David Phillips
    4 [​IMG] 6.444 Andy Sinton
    5 [​IMG] 6.352 Lee Sharpe
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1008 PDG1978, Jan 25, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2024
    Forwards

    SP (Second Strikers)
    1 [​IMG] 7.079 Peter Beardsley
    2 [​IMG] 6.694 John Hendrie
    3 [​IMG] 6.283 Ronnie Rosenthal
    4 [​IMG] 6.250 Mike Newell
    5 [​IMG] 6.214 Nick Barmby

    (It's possible Newell will still be moved to centre forwards as one of the minor changes as I had made conflicting posts to vyncy by private message, but I'm not sure; I also realise Eric Cantona's Man United rating is not showing here, because he played for Leeds first possibly, even though he has over 20 games with Man United - possibly that will be a correction but if not then his Man Utd rating is visible on the Man United squad page anyway and at 6.73 it'd put him 2nd on the above list)

    C (Centre Forwards)
    1 [​IMG] 6.643 Alan Shearer
    2 [​IMG] 6.615 Tony Cottee
    3 [​IMG] 6.577 Niall Quinn
    4 [​IMG] 6.525 Mark Hughes
    5 [​IMG] 6.500 Chris Sutton


    All of these posts show the ratings for a single club by the way. Therefore Kevin Gallacher doesn't have enough games for either club (but wouldn't for Blackburn anyway, where he has the higher rating - in theory his Coventry/Blackburn combined rating puts him as 4th SP if including Cantona).
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Adding a version of this for 1992/93 (this time it's the Match Magazine ratings of course - obviously some things can be a little different with other sources, although The People top averages for both 1991/92 and 1992/93 are limited in number of players known, because their final summary was limited to 6 goalkeepers/defenders/midfielders/forwards each in 1991/92 and because the 1992/93 page on the archives is blurred and the forwards section becomes impossible to read - anyway some similarities and some differences are still evident from those)

    As before, the classifications of some of the centre backs might be questionable in terms of their role/style (but it's been deemed their regular partner fits the other DBS Calcio role best and them the one they're shown with - eg Hendry at Blackburn, or Nicol at Liverpool....)

    1st Manchester United (4-4-2) - Paul Ince (MCC/Central Midfielder - 6.87 - 41 games - English), Steve Bruce (SCD/Marking Centre Back - 6.74 - 42 games - English) *for clarification Cantona is considered here, but his Match Magazine average is slightly below Bruce's so his DBS Calcio number to 2 decimal places is 6.73 as mentioned earlier, for the Man United games

    2nd Aston Villa (4-4-2) - Paul McGrath (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.88 - 42 games - Irish), Kevin Richardson (MCC/Central-Defensive Midfielder - 6.33 - 42 games - English)

    3rd Norwich City (4-4-2) - Ruel Fox (ACD/Right Winger - 6.88 - 34 games - English), Bryan Gunn (P/Goalkeeper - 6.69 - 42 games - Scottish)

    4th Blackburn Rovers (4-4-2) - Colin Hendry (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.74 - 41 games - Scottish), Alan Shearer (C/Centre Forward - 6.64 - 21 games - English)

    5th Queens Park Rangers (4-4-2) - Ray Wilkins (INC/Playmaking Midfielder - 6.60 - 29 games - English), Andy Sinton (ACS/Left Winger - 6.44 - 36 games - English)

    6th Liverpool (4-4-2) - Ronnie Whelan (MCC/Central Midfielder - 6.85 - 17 games - Irish), Steve Nicol (SCD/Marking Centre Back - 6.78 - 32 games - Scottish)

    7th Sheffield Wednesday (4-4-2) - Chris Waddle (ACD/Right Winger - 6.41 - 32 games - English), David Hirst (C/Centre Forward - 6.41 - 22 games - English)

    8th Tottenham Hotspur (4-4-2) - Neil Ruddock (SCD/Marking Centre Back - 6.66 - 38 games - English), Gary Mabbutt (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.64 - 29 games - English)

    9th Manchester City (4-4-2) - Niall Quinn (C/Centre Forward - 6.58 - 39 games - Irish), Tony Coton (P/Goalkeeper - 6.48 - 40 games - English)

    10th Arsenal (4-4-2) - Tony Adams (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.26 - 34 games - English), Paul Merson (ACS/Left Winger - 6.24 - 34 games - English)

    11th Chelsea (4-4-2) - John Spencer (SP/Second Striker - 6.33 - 18 games - Scottish), David Lee (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.30 - 25 games - English)

    12th Wimbledon (4-4-2) - John Scales (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.69 - 32 games - English), Hans Segers (P/Goalkeeper - 6.30 - 41 games - Dutch)

    13th Everton (4-4-2) - Peter Beardsley (SP/Second Striker - 7.08 - 38 games - English), Neville Southall (P/Goalkeeper - 6.83 - 39 games - Welsh)

    14th Sheffield United (4-4-2) - Alan Kelly (P/Goalkeeper - 6.53 - 32 games - Irish), Brian Deane (C/Centre Forward - 6.43 - 41 games - English)

    15th Coventry City (4-4-2) - Stewart Robson (MCC/Central Midfielder - 6.50 - 15 games - English), Peter Ndlovu (ACS/Left Winger - 6.34 - 31 games - Zimbabwean)

    16th Ipswich Town (4-3-1-2) - Geraint Williams (ACD/Right-Central Midfielder - 6.45 - 37 games - Welsh), Craig Forrest (P/Goalkeeper - 6.41 - 11 games - Canadian)

    17th Leeds United (4-4-2) - Eric Cantona (SP/Second Striker - 6.65 - 13 games - French), David Batty (MCC/Central Defensive Midfielder, occasionally right back too - 6.43 - 30 games - English)

    18th Southampton (4-4-2) - Ken Monkou (SCD/Marking Centre Back - 6.65 - 33 games - Dutch), Micky Adams (ACS/Left Winger, occasionally left back - 6.34 - 38 games - English)

    19th Oldham Athletic (4-4-2) - Mike Milligan (INC/Playmaking Midfielder - 6.74 - 42 games - Irish), Richard Jobson (LCD/Covering Centre Back - 6.63 - 40 games - English)

    20th Crystal Palace (4-4-2) - John Salako (ACS/Left Winger - 6.42 - 13 games - English), Nigel Martyn (P/Goalkeeper - 6.40 - 42 games - English)

    21st Middlesbrough (4-4-2) - John Hendrie (SP/Second Striker - 6.69 - 31 games - Scottish), Ian Ironside (P/Goalkeeper - 6.42 - 12 games - English)

    22nd Nottingham Forest (4-4-2) - Roy Keane (MCC/Central Midfielder - 6.78 - 40 games - Irish), Ian Woan (ACS/Left Winger - 6.54 - 26 games - English)
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1010 PDG1978, Jan 26, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2024
    shootexcitingplayers.jpg
    Shoot Magazine - 'Most Exciting Players of the Season' for England and Scotland, going back to the early 70s (and with a top 3 for the season just finished, 1988/89)
    I think it's probably based on reader's votes.

    The winners for the English league seem to be, I think:
    69/70 - Peter Bonetti
    70/71 - Steve Heighway
    71/72 - Kevin Keegan
    72/73 - Allan Clarke
    73/74 - Billy Bremner
    74/75 - Alan Hudson
    75/76 - Gordon Hill
    76/77 - Andy Gray
    77/78 - Kenny Dalglish
    78/79 - Kenny Dalglish
    79/80 - Kenny Dalglish
    80/81 - Kenny Dalglish
    81/82 - Glenn Hoddle
    82/83 - Kenny Dalglish
    83/84 - Ian Rush
    84/85 - Mark Hughes
    85/86 - Gary Lineker
    86/87 - Clive Allen
    87/88 - John Barnes
    88/89 - Chris Waddle (2nd Paul Gascoigne, 3rd Peter Beardsley)

    For Scotland I think it is:
    69/70 - Jimmy Johnstone
    70/71 - Willie Henderson
    71/72 - ?
    72/73 - Derek Parlane
    73/74 - Kenny Dalglish
    74/75 - Sandy Jardine
    75/76 - ?
    76/77 - Danny McGrain
    77/78 to 79/80 - not sure right now - EDIT - 77/78 and 79/80 probably the winners of the PFA award in those seasons, Derek Johnstone and Davie Proven, it seems, and 78/79 the winner of the Scottish Writers Award, Andy Ritchie
    PFA Scotland Players' Player of the Year - Wikipedia
    SFWA Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia
    80/81 - Charlie Nicholas
    81/82 - Paul Sturrock
    82/83 - Charlie Nicholas
    83/84 - Paul McStay
    84/85 - ?
    85/86 - Ally McCoist
    86/87 - Brian McClair
    87/88 - Paul McStay
    88/89 - Ally McCoist (2nd Mark Walters, 3rd Charlie Nicholas)
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I know you told me you're looking at 1993/94 now @Titanlux - maybe this is something extra to look at for the Premier League, a season XI by Johnny Giles
    (Flowers; Kelly, Pallister, Adams, Irwin; Keane, Ince, Batty; Beardsley, Shearer, Giggs, with mentions in the write-up for Kanchelskis, Bruce, Mark Hughes, Rob Jones, and for both positive/negative reasons Cantona, and with a negative slant in some respects but only as a contrast, Schmeichel)
    gilesxi93941st.png gilesxi93942nd.png
     
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll copy over the Guerin Sportivo English Premier League XI you shared with me too then Titanlux
    (Seaman; Kelly, Pallister, Adams, Irwin; Kanchelskis, Batty, Ince, Giggs, Shearer, Cole)
    I guess there was an element (just like vice versa for sure, with Italian football more viewable than ever in England) of increased viewing of top-league English games and highlights by that point, plus possibly Guerin Sportivo would have interacted with English journalists to an extent I'm thinking....
     
  13. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Hi mates,
    I'm curious which grades got Vinnie Jones these seasons
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Using DBS Calcio:
    997/98 Premier League (EN) 22 5.68 MCC 18 5.69
    1996/97 Premier League (EN) 29 5.91 MCC 17 5.70
    1995/96 Premier League (EN) 26 5.90 MCC 16 5.83
    1994/95 Premier League (EN) 32 5.81 MCC 21 5.78
    1993/94 Premier League (EN) 26 6.00 MCC 18 5.92
    set 92 Premier League (EN) 27 5.76 MCC 23 5.84
    1992/93 Premier League (EN) 7 5.79 MCC 23 5.87
    set 91 Premier League (EN) 35 5.89 MCC 26 5.81
    ago 91 Div1 0 - 0 -
    1991/92 Premier League (EN) 4 5.75 MCC 26 5.65

    For the original numbers, as in Shoot magazine in 91/92 add on 0.54 (remembering he played 4 rated games for Sheffield United and 35 rated games for Chelsea).
    For the original numbers, as in Match magazine in 92/93, add on 0.50 (remembering he played 7 rated games for Chelsea and 27 rated games for Wimbledon).
    I guess the reduction (conversion to DBS Calcio standards) would have been similar for other seasons he played, but am not sure exactly (vyncy suggested it was mostly the grades of the Independent that were used in those seasons if I understand correctly - there are some examples of Independent Premier League average ratings given by Puck at the start of the thread, for slightly later seasons).
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Well given that these were the descriptions, as posted by Puck, for the Independent, probably the reduction would be less actually I remind myself (and for 2009/10 vyncy confirmed it, but that may be a season with even higher variance than normal apparently, and maybe we're still not sure Sky Sports grades haven't been used or factored in).

    1 Awful: The sort of performance you are likely to see only once or twice in a season.

    2 Seriously below par. On average you might see one of these performances every other match.

    3 Poor. Most matches will probably feature two or three performances of this standard.

    4 Sub-standard: A player performing a little below an acceptable level.

    5 Average: Every player starts a match with five marks, which represents a "level-par" performance.

    6 A moderately good performance.

    7 Good. A performance well above standard.

    8 Very good. Most teams would be expected to have at least one player performing at this level in every match.

    9 Excellent: On average you might see one of these performances every other match.

    10 Outstanding: The sort of performance you are likely to see only once or twice in a season.


    Anyway, roughly speaking, the grades after 92/93 on DBS Calcio should align closely enough with the earlier ones I guess....
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Coming soon, on the specific Interesting Best XIs thread, will be a list of selections for 'All-Time XI' (I'll find out if all the players were picking only from British football like Kenny Burns did as shown via the link below, or not) from the winners of the Football Writers Player of the Year award between 1947/48 (Stanley Matthews) and 1996/97 (Gianfranco Zola), so I'm placing a link in here too
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-64#post-41980879
    It could be I'll be posting them, or starting to post them, later today sometime, but it'll be soon I think anyway (so they should all follow closely behind that one on the thread)....
     
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  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've started posting those now - it does seem to be about British/English football (possibly Burns could snuck in Scots that didn't play in England I guess but then others must have done similar too), and that seems confirmed by browsing at the XI's of Cantona (which is an all-Manchester United XI!) and Zola at the end.

    The 'Team of Teams' based on all the votes was Gordon Banks; Danny McGrain, John Charles, Bobby Moore, Ray Wilson; Bobby Charlton, Duncan Edwards; Stanley Matthews, Kenny Dalglish, George Best, Tom Finney
    Subs: Denis Law, Jimmy Greaves, Pat Jennings, Roger Byrne, Bryan Robson

    There was also a vote taken among a 'cross-section of players, past and present' for nominations for which players were unluckiest to miss out on an FWA award (link below for reminder on the ones who won, but it's the same ones I'm posting XIs for on that other thread anyway...the ones before Bergkamp basically)
    FWA Footballer of the Year - Wikipedia
    The result of that (top 20) was 1: Jimmy Greaves, 2: Denis Law, 3: Alan Ball, 4: Johnny Haynes, 5: Tommy Lawton, 6: Jackie Milburn, 7: Geoff Hurst, 8: Raich Carter, 9: Wilf Mannion, 10: Colin Bell, 11: Ian Wright, 12: Peter Shilton, 13: John Charles, 14: Len Shackleton, 15: Allan Clarke, 16: Ray Wilson, 17: Stan Mortsensen, 18: Martin Peters, 19: Rodney Marsh, 20: Glenn Hoddle
     
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  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #1018 PDG1978, Feb 6, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2024
    Titanlux has found the result for 1993/94 as well:
    (Top 6 of Giggs, Kanchelskis, Cantona, Ian Wright, Le Tissier, Shearer, and an indication that although titled most exciting player it was in a way also being considered an overall Premiership Player of the Year award seemingly...so maybe that was a trend for other years too although it's hard to be sure which description most fits the voting instructions or voter intentions I guess and it could have changed over the years even - The 'Sports Personality of the Year' award from the BBC has long been seen as a 'Sportsperson of the Year' award in effect though I suppose for example).

    If you want to re-post in the thread @Titanlux feel free anyway, because it'd be more suitable for you to receive any reps rather than me for this one I think.
     
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  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd forgotten that I'd spotted the Shoot magazine Most Exciting Player of the Year shortlist for 1990/91,in one of my old copies of Shoot, and posted about it on page 1 of the thread!

    So at least for that season there is an element of influence by the writers of Shoot, because a player not on the shortlist couldn't receive any votes from readers I suppose. A shortlist of 12 is fairly extensive, but maybe that shortlist and season can be a good example where various players who could perhaps have been considered to be significant candidates were not shortlisted - no John Barnes, Gary Lineker, Des Walker, Anders Limpar for example....
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    After closer inspection I realised that indeed the great work of @Pavlin Arnaudov and @Paul W had provided most of the necessary pages from Shoot in 1989/90, but I did identify the few remaining issues of the magazine still needed I believe, and I think I have them all ordered and so I think I'll be able to complete a full set of 1st Division average ratings from Shoot for that season (although I will probably take a while to do it still, and will need to give my recommendations on formations/positions to vyncy before the entries can be made on DBS Calcio again too).

    In the process of doing that (in an issue, 6th of Jaunuary 1990, that was unnecessary to buy for the ratings as it turned out - because they had a bit of a Christmas break from publishing ratings it seems and then caught up in a later issue which I had already ordered too) I have spotted confirmation of a 'Rothmans Allstar Team' of British Internationals, selected to commemorate the 20th edition of the Rothmans Football Yearbook - I think it is selected in shirt number order (I'm not sure what the formation would be intended as, could be 4-3-1-2, 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-2-2-2): Gordon Banks, Danny McGrain, Kenny Sansom, Alan Hansen, Bobby Moore, Graeme Souness, Bryan Robson, Kenny Dalglish, Ian Rush, Bobby Charlton, George Best (Subs: Pat Jennings, Kevin Ratcliffe, Steve Nicol, Kevin Keegan, Denis Law, and they selected Alf Ramsey as manager apparently too).

    Also in that issue is the Shoot Roll of Honour for calendar year 1989 - they produced lists based on all the nominations received (up to and including for November - I'm not sure if the December votes would count towards 1990 instead or not be factored in, though there is a voting cut-out to fill in and send off for December voting anyway) for Player of the Month and Team of the Month (for each of the top 4 divisions in England, and the Scottish Premier League - hence not many 1st Division entries on the roll of honour). On that basis the Player of the Year was Steve Bull of Wolverhampton Wanderers (who won Division 3 in 1988/89 and were playing in Division 2 in 1989/90). Chelsea (who won Division 2 and were in the 1989/90 1st Division) had two players in the top 10 - Kerry Dixon in 2nd, and Gordon Durie being one of the players tied for 7th, but the top placed player who spent all calendar year in Division 1 was John Barnes, in 10th. Rangers from Scotland were Team of the Year with this method, but Sheffield Wednesday (in Division 1 all year) did manage 2nd place, while Liverpool were in joint 5th, and Nottingham Forest were in joint 8th.

    Within that Roll of Honour were also the results for Goal of the Year (based on Goal of the Month nominations - just an overall top 3, so this time all the goals in the published top 5 of the year were scored by 1st Division teams, though including one newly-promoted one and one who got relegated):
    Joint 1st:
    Clive Allen (Manchester City) vs Chelsea, October 28th

    (0:41)
    Paul Ince (West Ham) vs Aston Villa, March 25th

    3rd Neil Webb (Manchester United) vs Arsenal, August 19th

    (2:15)
    4th Ronnie Whelan (Liverpool) vs Coventry, March 22nd

    (1:04)
    5th Mark Hughes (Manchester United) vs Milwall, September 16th

    (0:12)
     
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  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    There was a Barclays Young Eagle of the Year award, I think between 1986/87 and 1992/93.

    Here is a comparison between winners of that (BYEOY), and winners of the PFA Young Player of the Year award (PFAYP)....
    1986/87 - David Rocastle (BYEOY), Tony Adams (PFAYP)
    1987/88 - Nigel Clough (BYEOY), Paul Gascoigne (PFAYP)
    1988/89 - David Rocastle (BYEOY), Paul Merson (PFAYP)
    1989/90 - Matthew Le Tissier (BYEOY & PFAYP)
    1990/91 - Lee Sharpe (BYEOY & PFAYP)
    1991/92 - Roy Keane (BYEOY), Ryan Giggs (PFAYP)
    1992/93 - Ryan Giggs (BYEOY & PFAYP)

    Here is an excerpt from 1990 about Le Tissier's BYEOY award, with words from Bobby Robson:
    upload_2024-2-11_7-23-49.png
    Here is Bobby Robson giving Nigel Clough the award for 87/88:
     
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  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, I'm not totally sure about 1986/87 (but there are various references to Rocastle being named it online it seems).

    And there was the same award, but named the Fiat Uno Young Player of the Year award, for 1985/86 at least, as Tony Cottee won that (as well as the PFA Young Player award):
    cotteefiatuno.png
    I can see that Rocastle did win a 'Fiat Uno' award for the month of December 1986 too
    rocastleyoungplayermonth.png
    So whether he did win the 1986/87 Fiat Uno award overall too, or whether Barclays made an award for that whole season (with input from Robson and others), I don't know. There were continued Barclays 'Young Eagle of the Month' awards though from 1987/88 onwards as well....
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    A few examples of the monthly young player awards (November 1987, November 1989, November 1991, October 1987)
    youngeaglenov87.png
    youngeaglenov89.png
    youngeaglenov91.png
    youngeagleoct87.png
     
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  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This confirms that Gary Shaw (80/81), Ian Rush (82/83) and Mark Hughes (84/85) did win that same Young Player of the Year award (sponsored by Robinsons Barley Water before Fiat Uno) in the same seasons they won the PFA Young Player of the Year award too (and it shows the extended panel of esteemed judges involved at that time)
    robinsonsyoungplayer85.png
    The 1983/84 winner was Mark Wright (as opposed to Paul Walsh being the PFA Young Player)
    The 1981/82 winner was Ronnie Whelan, with Rush second (as opposed to Steve Moran being the PFA Young Player)
    The 1979/80 inaugural winner was Gordon Cowans apparently (as opposed to Glenn Hoddle being the PFA Young Player - I wouldn't be sure whether he would be considered too old for this Robinsons Barley Water award or not, ditto Bryan Robson for example, but they were a little older than Cowans)
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    It seems, according to newspaper reports, that Adams did win the 1986/87 award (Fiat Uno, Barclays or whatever it was called at the time of presentation, but the one presented and commented on by Bobby Robson, for the full season, anyway).

    I also see this run-down for Sunday Sun Players of the Year (just for the North East clubs - like the 60s ones we talked about before I think maybe), which shows Robert Lee with the 1993/94 award (ahead of Cole, and apparently with the next Newcastle players being Venison and Beardsley - Lee Clark had won the previous season in which Newcastle got promoted, with David Kelly 2nd for Newcastle and overall too)
    sundaysunplayers90s.png
     
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