Premier League / First Division ratings

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've got that 1976/77 to 1998/99 top 3s (awards and ratings) summary updated now again, as well as the ratings summary table.

    I've put the DBS Calcio top 3 in for 1980/81 - Craig Johnston, Gerry Francis and Alan Brazil (for that top 3s summary I'd been including players with 20+ games anyway). For 1991/92 I haven't, because it's basically in the Shoot column already of course (but I did insert Mark Wright in the top 3 even though he's only just above the threshold for games played). I've left the Match top 3 (based on league+cup games) in too, but with a note about it.

    On the ratings summary table I replaced what we previously had for Match (which was out of line with other seasons because it was based on cup game ratings as well as league games), with an XI made from what vyncy had calculated (predominantly but not only using Match as the source). I thought a 4-4-2 was the most suitable way to present the XI though probably, so Thijssen and Muhren have both gone into it. I've made the XI including Johnston and Gerry Francis because for the following couple of seasons Match were only requiring 20 league games to be featured among their final top averages, even though later in the 80s it did go up to 30, and for 1980/81 itself it was 35 league+cup games in all competitions (so like I said before we don't know whether Johnston's league+cup games average was higher or lower than Dalglish's necessarily). I've also bolded Trevor Francis in the 1976/77 People XI now, to reflect what became clearer with the clearer page I'd found eventually, and changed the note a bit about Dalglish, because I'm not sure whether his 'Player of the Year' award might have been something decided at the end of 1982, like Bergkamp's for 1997 that I posted about before.

    playersofseasons77-99.png
    ratingssummaryupdate13.png
    EDIT - I think Brazil should have been put in italics on the top 3s summary in the DBS Calcio column for 1980/81, but it's not worth doing that and re-posting I think (ditto with McQueen in the 1976/77 People column probably).
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just to add a further note about the 1980/81 selection - as well as Bosko Jankovic and Eric Gates (if using each designated role as on DBS Calcio once each) there could be arguments for Kenny Dalglish (if not including a true number 9, or if putting in 3 forwards) plus Osvaldo Ardiles and/or Bryan Robson (if not picking 'valid' wide players, but going with something like 4-3-3 or a diamond).

    It's not so clear-cut as with 1991/92 (Shoot/DBS Calcio), where after it's established Mark Wright has enough games, it's just whether Ray Wilkins goes in rather than Carlton Palmer. But 4-4-2 with a main striker seemed a reasonable enough way to pick the 1980/81 XI anyway, and even though they didn't play in a flat 4-4-2 I think Thijssen and Muhren are valid choices for the wide positions.
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    People ratings from around the middle of that season, published on Christmas Eve 1978 (Ardiles 7.93, Brady 7.92, Thomas 7.78, Currie 7.66, Dalglish 7.57, Shilton 7.50....)
    7879peoplemid.png
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    For these 82/83 and 83/84 seasons I haven't found mid-season ratings as such, but there's one from very early April 1983 (in effect the standings at the end of March) for 82/83 (to be clear, since the text maybe isn't, Dalglish was on 7.64 at that point as it says so in the report which is written just after he was awarded the PFA Player of the Year accolade) and quite an extensive one from later in April in 1984 (with about one month still to play of the 1983/84 season):
    8283peoplemarch.png
    8384peopleratingsapril.png
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Mid-season ranking from the People for 1987/88 (from 27th of December) - Barnes having a narrow lead, on 7.53, with Ardiles and Reid joint second at that point on 7.50:
    8788peoplemid.png
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    1988/89 mid-season People ratings, from 1st January 1989:
    8889peoplemid.png
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Pavlin Arnaudov repped this.
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The ratings aren't visible, but I found this from the 30th of December 1990, for mid-season 1990/91 People ratings (the report seems to indicate the top players in the midfield section are also at the top of the overall standings, which was the case at the end of the season too, albeit with Walker in the mix also):
    9091peoplemid.png
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe it's worth pasting this summary from late November 1965 (a few months into 1965/66) into the thread. They were still categorising the players from 1-11 - I guess they consider Bobby Charlton to be classed as a 'deep-lying centre forward' for example, although he was basically playing as a midfielder:
    6566peoplenov.png
     
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  11. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Woww, this is great !!!

    Notable absences: Law, Greaves, Mackay, Peters, among others.
     
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  12. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    Great find, I had found a few of these from the 60's..........hope we find more!
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, you found some from in the middle of 1961/62 and 1962/63 I remember.

    It's strange, but there doesn't appear to be any sign of any final ratings in May 1966 as far as I can see, and then no sign of merit marks updates at all for a few years (except for World Cups).

    It's a bit similar for 1993/94 (as for 1965/66) where there is a mid-season update but no sign of an end of season one too (and then after that the merit marks seem to be merged into a Fantasy Football game from 1994/95 onwards, probably without a separate summary it seems).
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    For 1964/65 maybe this gives some idea: the top list is just based on games played for England, but the bottom list is picked using The People's Merit Marks in general I think (it only factors in English players of course though, as it's an exercise about selecting a potential World Cup squad):
    englandn1stdivmeritmarks6465.png
    I'm not sure but I might already have posted it - I seemed to have it saved on my computer already I just noticed!
     
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  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I thought I'd add this one while I have access to the archives still - seemingly the 'performance of the season' (which considering some of Liverpool's big wins would be notable) by Forest vs Chelsea - I'm actually showing the Derby Evening Telegraph report, though in the Nottingham Evening Post and the Daily Mirror there were similar ones and with some more detail about goals (Francis's two assists were gained by playing the ball in from the left for the 1st goal by O'Neill and from the right for the 2nd by Woodcock...and apparently the best goal was disallowed after 30 minutes after Francis went down the left and played the ball in for Woodcock to dummy and let Birtles fire in a goal, but Woodcock was penalised for something and it was ruled out - all sources say that Barota had a great game in goal for Chelsea
    forestchelsea7879.png
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just coming back to correct/clarify here - I checked whether the top image could be for the 2nd Division in 1981/82 (with Norwich's Martin O'Neill top-rated player of that league) and yeah it is - Paul had posted a clear version of the same page earlier in this thread, and it's actually the 1998/99 season that Adams was Matchman of the Year for (the Magazine is dated 24th of July 1999) - I can't be sure whether any of us had found that before (I don't think Pavlin or anyone has posted the full breakdown of ratings team by team for that season though anyway yet), but it does match up with him being top 3 in the Premier League ratings according to DBS Calcio's source/s too.
     
  18. Pavlin Arnaudov

    Juventus
    Bulgaria
    Oct 21, 2017
    I don't have the ratings from the 1998-99 MATCH MAGAZINE
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #944 PDG1978, Dec 17, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2023
    match9899page.jpg
    Ok, well I think that that issue of Match I linked to does contain them for the Premier League and other leagues, assuming it's not just a list of Matchmen of the Season for each club which I would think it wouldn't be - the front page says it's a 16 page guide so surely it's more than that and in other seasons there have been detailed ratings for the top-rated players or sometimes all players of all clubs as you have found yourself of course (see the example pages on Ebay - I've pasted the relevant one above though too).
     
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  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I don't know - at 'worst' maybe it could be the revealing of all the Matchmen of the Season for each league (perhaps with an XI of the Season for each league though too?) plus articles about each of them I guess.

    At 'best' a listing of all average ratings (but maybe 16 pages isn't enough for that for all leagues, unless it's in small type or not in the same format as in 1990/91, and neither 1995/96 to 1997/98?).

    The older-fashioned pages for each league, like Paul posted, would give quite a lot of information too (top-rated players by position etc) so I guess it could be something like that too.

    But, yeah, the minimum it would show would be the top-rated player of each league (possibly each club) I guess - hopefully it'd be more than that though.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #947 PDG1978, Dec 19, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2023
    I've gone back and reviewed the Match/People combined ratings list, and done a top ratings XI for the 1981/82 to 1987/88 period (the stretch of the 80s with both sources available), in an attacking 4-4-2:

    Jim Platt (Middlesbrough) 1981/82 7.11; Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool) 1986/87 7.01, Paul Parker (QPR) 1987/88 7.23, Alvin Martin (West Ham) 1985/86 7.32, Steve Nicol (Liverpool) 1987/88 7.08; Trevor Steven (Everton) 1986/87 7.21, Glenn Hoddle (Tottenham) 1983/84 7.46, Ray Wilkins (Man Utd) 1983/84 7.34, John Barnes (Liverpool) 1987/88 7.49; Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) 1982/83 7.39, Kevin Keegan (Southampton) 1981/82 7.29 (assuming Keegan can be considered a valid 'number 9', with Dalglish as second striker - other options being Trevor Francis from 1981/82 if valid 'number 9' himself on 7.28 which is possibly even higher anyway if his Match average should have been above what was shown due to it lacking the games with Forest, and Frank McAvennie from 1985/86 on 7.27)

    Hoddle is arguably short on games, but with the average being known and with it being a high one I put him in anyway (and alternatively he could have been in for 1981/82 instead as the attacking central midfield option, or given Tottenham using a diamond that season he could have reasonably been placed on the right instead of Steven as his average of 7.32 for 81/82 was high enough - Steven went in with the same average as Mark Chamberlain 1982/83 who could have been valid as right winger too, but what is known is that if Starfacts ratings were factored in for 86/87 Steven's average would be higher still...at least if 'correcting' the Starfacts ratings by adding a point to the averages anyway, which could also bring Ratcliffe for centre back and Rush for centre forward into the equation in theory; not Ray Clemence but he would possibly be the top-rated 1986/87 goalie that way at least).

    I think Nicol played left back more than is shown on that Liverpool formations site (it is pretty reliable in general I think, but shows Venison as left back erroneously on some occasions at least it seems when it was Nicol - I do think it's a reliable guide probably re: Lawrenson being more often a right back, as placed in Match's XI too, for 1986/87 though). In theory Kenny Sansom from 1981/82 on 6.93 would be the alternative left back if Nicol was put on the right though I can add.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #948 PDG1978, Dec 19, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2023
    Well, I suppose I should add that in theory McMahon of Liverpool from 1987/88 could be in for Wilkins (or Hoddle 1983/84, with Hoddle 1981/82 placed on the right) - his combined average being 0.01 higher than the one of Wilkins for 1983/84.

    Maybe it's arguable who is more the MCC and who more the INC (to use the DBS Calcio terms) for both Manchester United 1983/84 (between Wilkins and Robson) and Liverpool 1987/88 (between Whelan and McMahon): combinations between respectively a playmaker who nevertheless sat back a bit more and a combative box to box player who got forwards to shoot quite often.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Since the 'Christmas House of Games' programme I was planning to watch doesn't start until 7.30pm UK time I thought I'd come back and also try a DBS Calcio ratings XI for 90s years (using 1991/92 to 1998/99, excluding the not yet available 92/93 Premier League season, but including the 91/92 season with the Shoot ratings because as vyncy has said all DBS Calcio ratings numbers are aligned to the DBS Calcio standard anyway):

    There were People ratings for 91/92, but it would be out of sync to add them in and we've only seen ratings for the top 6 GKs/defenders/midfielders/attackers anyway so there's not much to merge with Shoot ratings in any case. Likewise only a small selection of Match's ratings have been seen.

    Hans Segers (Wimbledon) 1994/95 6.63; Warren Barton (Wimbledon) 1994/95 6.81, Mark Wright (Liverpool) 1991/92 7.02, Martin Keown (Everton) 1991/92 6.92, Stuart Pearce (Nottingham Forest) 1991/92 6.82; Keith Gillespie (Newcastle United) 1997/98 7.00, Paul Ince (Manchester United) 1994/95 or Ruud Gullit (Chelsea) 1995/96 6.95, Jan Molby (Liverpool) 1991/92 7.30, David Ginola (Newcastle United) 1995/96 6.92; Alan Shearer (Blackburn Rovers) 1995/96 7.06, Peter Beardsley (Newcastle United) 1993/94 7.05

    Molby has a similar amount of games as Hoddle 83/84, but Wright and Gillespie do have a few less than that.

    I guess the DBS Calcio adjustments have been somewhere in the region of a reduction by between 0.25 and 0.5 points, so as an estimate to compare to the 1980s Match/People ratings maybe adding 0.35 onto these numbers could seem reasonable I guess (that would put Barton, Pearce, Shearer and just about Beardsley into an estimated XI made from the different sources for those 80s seasons and these 90s ones in theory, as well as Wright, Gillespie and Molby if the amount of games was enough - Platt, Martin, Wilkins perhaps and Barnes could make it in from the 80s though and Dalglish 82/83 would be very close to being tied with Beardsley 93/94 with 0.35 added onto Beardsley's DBS Calcio average so that's surely a close call).
     
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Probably those selections wouldn't match exactly with what a consensus would arrive at, but being based on the ratings I guess they do have some validity anyway (even if other sources being added in could change things obviously potentially).

    From the 80s and 90s XIs formed with those ratings these players did also get in PFA Teams of the Season (albeit these are often decided a while before the end of the season anyway, and not only based on league games probably):
    Keegan (81/82), Dalglish (82/83), Hoddle (83/84), Barnes (87/88), Pearce (91/92), Beardsley (93/94), Ince (94/95)/Gullit (95/96), Ginola (95/96), Shearer (95/96).

    I guess if I'd tried to make an XI off the top of my head for 80s and 90s (just with the same seasons included) I might have ended up with something like this for the 80s:
    Southall (Everton) 84/85; Neal (Liverpool) 82/83, McGrath (Man Utd) 85/86, Hansen (Liverpool) 82/83, Sansom (Arsenal) 81/82; Hoddle (Tottenham) 81/82, Ardiles (Tottenham) 81/82, Gascoigne (Newcastle) 87/88, Barnes (Liverpool) 87/88; Francis (Forest/Man City) 81/82, Dalglish (Liverpool) 82/83
    And for the 90s something like this:
    Schmeichel (Man Utd) 95/96; Petrescu (Sheffield Wednesday/Chelsea) 95/96, Desailly (Chelsea) 98/99, Campbell (Tottenham) 97/98, Irwin (Man Utd) 93/94; Beckham (Man Utd) 96/97, Gullit (Chelsea) 95/96, Bohinen (Forest) 94/95, Giggs (Man Utd) 93/94; Bergkamp (Arsenal) 97/98, Klinsmann (Tottenham) 94/95
     

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