I guess on that one Puck it's partly down to the less generous Italian ratings (very rare for players to get near top marks), but some of them will have given him a 9 (we've seen Vegan10 post evidence before I think, which probably contributed to krokko's calculations I think - maybe Guerin Sportivo but I could be wrong). I think whichever went as low as 8 (although it's still considered a very good rating) were being a bit conservative/harsh probably (I think the France Football ratings might be mixed in too if I remember krokko's first post on it correctly, and actually they went 5/6). Like we've said before he probably did a bit more in terms of all-round game vs West Germany, I suppose, but I think he still played very well in general vs England and with the goals and the way he scored them I'd personally find it unlikely I'd place very many performances ahead at all (and so lean towards the top end; like above 9, or a 6/6). I see krokko did show the full list of top Euro 88 game ratings again now anyway, like this: 8,40 van Basten vs England (3-1) 8,20 Dasaev vs Holland (1-0, group stage) 7,80 Míchel vs Denmark (3-2) 7,70 Mikhailichenko & Zavarov vs Italy (2-0) 7,60 Bonner vs England (1-0) 7,50 van Basten vs West Germany (2-1) 7,50 Mikhailichenko vs England (3-1) 7,50 Litovchenko vs Italy (2-0) 7,40 van Basten & Gullit vs USSR (2-0, final) 7,40 Rijkaard vs USSR (0-1, group stage) 7,40 Gullit vs England (3-1) 7,40 R. Houghton vs England (1-0) 7,40 Butragueño vs Denmark (3-2) 7,40 F. Baresi & Maldini vs Denmark (2-0) 7,30 R. Koeman vs West Germany (2-1) 7,30 Donadoni vs Germany (1-1) 7,30 Maldini vs Spain (1-0) So it's just the Dasaev one vs the Dutch in the first game that is within half a point (I'm not sure I ever saw that game in full btw - I tend to think I might not have at the time although could be wrong, but I don't think I looked through it all recently anyway, so can't really give my own verdict on that one, but France Football did give a 6/6 I remember wm442433 showed, which was rare for the tournament from them I believe: good goalkeeping performances do often get well rewarded by Italian sources, and German ones, I think too, and seasonal average ratings tend to show that historically) Anyway, I see more good work by krokko, including a relatively recent list (compared to what we have been discussing lately on this thread) for Man Utd in 2010/11 from a mixture of The Times, The Sun, and Gazzetta dello Sport actually apparently: 6,57 Nemanja Vidić 6,54 Wayne Rooney 6,53 Ryan Giggs 6,55 Nani 6,51 Rio Ferdinand 6,48 Paul Scholes 6,44 Darren Fletcher 6,33 Javier Hernández 6,27 Dimitar Berbatov 6,26 Ji-Sung Park 6,24 Edwin van der Sar 6,22 Chris Smalling 6,21 Antonio Valencia 6,18 Fábio, Gabriel Obertan 6,11 Patrice Evra 6,10 Rafael 6,03 Michael Carrick, Kuszczak 5,97 Wes Brown 5,89 John O'Shea 5,87 Michael Owen 5,83 Jonny Evans 5,81 Anderson 5,77 Darron Gibson 5,60 Bebé 5,40 Federico Macheda I guess you noticed krokko's calculated grades for Ipswich 80/81 with Uefa Cup games factored in (thanks to Paul's providing of the Match Weekly ratings) anyway Puck, and that Thissen was top, with Muhren also up in the first few. @Krokko not that I'm trying to double check your work or anything, but I did spot that I think you possibly wrote Djalma Santos instead of Nilton Santos on the 1958 World Cup goals+assists table. I'd need to try to check whether I think Nilton did have 3 assists (maybe you even partly relied on written sources on that - I know not every build up for every goal is shown necessarily on highlight reels etc, in that period of World Cups just before 1966), but you must mean him I think anyway?
It is hard/wrong to compare across time but they have given out 10 ratings for a lot less. They are typically (very) generous/soft to their own demigods and heroes, as well as Argentina in comparison to Brazil even.
You're probably right. These stats are taken directly from Swedish sports magazine Idrottsbladet, which is a realiable source ... which doesn't mean they cannot mix up two Brazilian names of course. Thanks for noticing . I'm right now trying to calculate a composite average of Barcelona's ratings this season. It's a tricky one, because I have to "convert" the Spanish 0-4 grades and the German 6-1 grades (kicker) to the int'l 1-10 scale.
Yeah, sometimes they have seemed to give like a sudden 'career recognition' 10/10 to a Baggio or something, it appears I think doesn't it?
Some strange stuff in here too, although the #1 looks fine and Rooney in the top 5 is okay too. Imho Giggs is way too high and VdSar should be top five (especially the KO game vs Chelsea), was quite busy throughout. Evra is also strangely low I think. Carrick in comparison to Scholes as well.
This is quite usual actually: a 10/10 "per la carriera" in the farewell game. If it's clearly a "carreer award", I never include it in the average. What is typical for Italian vs Spanish grades? Generally speaking, Italians tend to emphasize the outcome of the game while Spanish media seem to focus more on how the game was played. Italian media used to be extremely harsh on strikers. In the 1989/90 season, when the Serie A was littered with people like van Basten, Baggio, Vialli, Schillaci, Völler etc etc, no striker was among the top rated 15. Kicker usually give goalkeepers very high grades.
Yeah, it seems like Italian media require something spectacular from a striker to give out a very high grade (or at least a hatful of goals scored, which was still not common in 89/90 in Serie A of course). George Weah's 1995/96 grades perhaps look even better in that context, though the league was more open in terms of playing style by then. Looking at this table I showed for the English league ratings though, the strikers don't tend to receive the very highest average either - indicated by the bolding of players (though for example Rush wouldn't have been far away in 83/84 or 86/87, Andy Cole is shown on DBS Calcio, with averages determined by English sources, as right up at the top end for 93/94 now, and Shearer the following season is a similar case; but again the DBS Calcio ratings often show players like De Bruyne at the top rather than outright goalscorers) https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ivision-ratings.2037606/page-20#post-40542004 I do think that English (and probably Spanish) sources tend to be a bit more generous towards attacking players though. Compared to 1980s Serie A English football and certainly recent Spanish football has been more goal-filled though, so that is partly a reason in itself probably.
To be fair Guerin Sportivo did list MvB as the best center forward for that 1970 to 1995 Placar thing. But an 8/10 for that England match doesn't reflect the barrier breaking nature of that feat (just as 4 goals in a EC match, let alone against the last 8, hadn’t been scored since a very long time). Strikers received a 9 for far less.
Yeah, that's true and I think post-season assessments can sometimes differ from calculations of game by game averages, plus the class of a player can be seen as over and above what the average performance level in a given season was, for various reasons. Anyway yeah, clear that they considered him a top notch player/striker. Like I say I'm thinking they (Guerin Sportivo) were a source that gave him a 9/10 vs England, though I might be remembering wrong. I remember this (retrospective) 9, and glowing write-up of course 1993 Group B: Milan-Goteborg 4-0 - Game of Goals On that site actually, an all-time Manchester City XI and write-up has appeared I see, which is relevant and interesting enough to post here maybe: The Sky is Blue: Manchester City's top 11 all-time - Game of Goals (A name I guess I would have included, at least as a mention in the Colin Bell write-up or something, I think, would be Georgi Kinkladze for example (albeit based on brief peak, and not in a successful team), but there are several interesting mentions in addition to the main XI still anyway)
The Italian scale is something like this: 8,5 = Maradona vs Belgium '86 level 8 = Maradona-in-Mexico level 7,5 = int'l top-class 7 = very good 6,5 = good 6 = adequate 5,5 = below par 5 = poor 4,5 = very poor 4 = disaster 3,5 = cataclysm
Since I spotted this too (perhaps it could be more suitable on the interesting best XI thread, but I'll put it here anyway) - the 7 Italian writers on that site pick their Premier League XIs and end up with their consensus XI The top 11 of the 30 years of the Premier League - Game of Goals I guess Bale at left back is a bit of a stretch, but all his votes did come for that slot in the XI. I'm not really sure how much they leaned to peak and how much to longevity. I guess I'd be more interested in peak personally (partly because different players had different amounts of time in the league), and then I'd possibly be including Desailly alongside Van Dijk at this point (I would probably put Ferdinand on the right and Van Dijk on the left though if that was the partnership, but probably they didn't really think about which player goes on which side anyway I'm assuming), Petrescu and Irwin as side backs maybe, Bergkamp as support striker or more likely in the hole, which would mean a 4-2-3-1 and potentially a Gullit (although that might be stretching it in terms of longevity, to the point it's a non-factor) and Vieira partnership in that case for me even. Based more on peak I'd have Pires on the left I think too, but it's probably natural that they'd end up with more modern players overall anyway. I'll not think how I'd do a 4-3-3 myself just because where would Bergkamp go.... (and I'd for sure have him in personally, whichever criteria were used I think actually too). It's not really based on ratings of course, but worth adding in anyway I think.
This is what Desailly said for his perfect xi: "I couldn't omit him. He was elegance personified. He could score in millions of different ways and always with an unbelievable touch of class. He had no weak points – he was completely two-footed, and he was strong with his head, but he didn’t just score goals, he also created many, many assists. It is a shame that he stopped playing at such a young age. Had he continued into his thirties, I think he could have become a great ‘number 10’." Anyway this is about the Premier League.
Yeah, at first I started reading the quote thinking you meant it was about Bergkamp lol! The end bit is applicable only to Van Basten, moreso, though I think, and Bergkamp wasn't in his XI anyway of course: Marcel Desailly: Perfect XI | FourFourTwo
Could you explain the formula to convert the ratings to 1-10 from different sources? I'm just curious
Of course. Let's say you have Marca's 0-4 scale where the average note to all players on the pitch is 1,5. On the 1-10 scale where 6 is "adequate" ("passed the exam") 1,5 should be compared to 6. Which means that a Marca note of 1 becomes 5,5, 2 becomes 6,5 etc. If a 1-10 scale where 5 is "adequate" is used, you simply add 1 point to each grade. The German system where 1 is the highest note is converted like this: 1 becomes 9, 1,5 becomes 8,5. Kicker sometimes give a very high average note (rather 7,00 than 6,00, check the top rated Bundesliga players), so they cannot be converted straight off when they are compared to other sources: the "Kicker surplus" must be removed first. France Football's rating system was really problematic, because they gave a 0 grade to every player who had been sent off. So a player could actually score a hat-trick in a CL final, but receive a 0 note if he got a red card in the last minute for celebrating a goal by taking his shirt off...
I see I also make my own rating system and I can say that for Kicker it is the same as yours. For France Football I give - for 6=9...for 1=4. For the Spanish from 0-4 I give.......for 4=8......for 0=5. I may be wrong, but that's what I think. Cheers and if I have questions about some ratings I can ask you. All the best!
Since there was a bit of sad news about Overmars his heart condition yesterday (and stress breakdowns in the past few years, mental problems), I looked back at some old videos and remembered again the match where he as central midfielder played Giggs through his legs (at 1.55 in the video). Outsprinting Cristiano Ronaldo in his very last match. I don't really get the dip in his ratings at 1998-99 very much; I have him down as pretty consistent even if not as good as before his 1995 complicated leg fracture. The Opta yearbook does mention his shooting and crossing was not as good for a part of the 1998-99 season and he received tighter marking and harsher fouling (double teaming). He was surely missed in the 1996 CL final as well as the 1998WC semi final. I wouldn't say he was as good as Robben at his peak (maybe pre-1995 was pretty close) and Pires proved to be an upgrade for Arsenal I believe, but really 'special' was his two-footedness (through balls with both feet!) as well as playing centrally very well. Imho slightly underrated in the sense that he's now condensed to being just a fast dribbler while he was elite level on both wings. And many don't realize he was seriously a level better before he broke his leg in november 1995. Gary Neville in his current guise as pundit has regularly said Overmars was his toughest ever (direct) opponent (whether that's true... it's a personal impression obviously).
Oh, I didn't know that about Overmars (I did notice something about Iniesta having had some stress, and as with that case I'd wish Overmars the best too - I guess the heart condition happened post-Covid then did it?). Yeah, I agree he was an excellent winger at Ajax, and I think he was one of the Ajax players who played exceptionally vs Bayern in 94/95 for example, and I remember his impact in the Wembley game vs England in qualification for WC 1994 too (and generally he was a very tricky and extremely fast winger, on either wing, around that period). Yeah, I think I would put Pires on an even higher level, but it's true Neville picks out Overmars indeed - actually he had Pires as a guest on a 'Soccer Box' episode and at some moments he seemed to bemoan (in a friendly/light hearted way - they got on well enough and were laughing and joking at some moments I remember) that defenders weren't stopping him shoot on his right foot, though he did then acknowledge that he had Henry and Cole available to pass to for example saying "yeah, that's the problem", although maybe he should also consider some left footed assists Pires did make (Euro 2000 Final, vs Liverpool in 01/02 for example) if he did go down the outside. I think he did personally seem to find Overmars harder to deal with in terms of his speed and running with the ball though. He must be one of the fastest players ever I think (certainly over distances typically sprinted in football), and was still very fast in that Arsenal time when Neville used to play vs him for sure, but it's true he had more to his game than that definitely.
I found a People ratings update from late March 1978 now - I'll let you know if I find the end of season one too obviously At that point the 1st Division XI would have been as follows then, if going with a 4-3-3 (but Hunter and Boam are among the 4 highest rated defenders, though I'm assuming they only/mainly played CB like the top two rated at that point, Gemmill could be in for Brady if going 2 box to box players and 1 playmaker instead of vice versa albeit Gemmill was maybe seen as the more attacking partner and somewhat a playmaker anyway and I'm not sure whether his Derby ratings would be factored in to his average or not meaning potentially it could be higher or lower than shown...but maybe they are as the example I'm thinking of where similar didn't happen was with Match ratings - Francis in 81/82....and I'm thinking the People probably would have kept the averages calculated for players based on all games; and as for wingers and strikers Robertson would be in if not for Johnstone or if allowing two left wingers or considering one played enough as right winger which would have to be Johnstone that season I think if they did and I'm not sure about that, Woodcock would be in in a 4-4-2 if Francis was eligible for right wing, otherwise Coppell would be in at right wing...but both Woodcock and Coppell are on a lower average than Brady and Gemmill anyway) Keelan (Norwich) 7.40; Anderson (Forest) 7.10, Burns (Forest) 7.48, Wile (West Brom) 7.30, Statham (West Brom) 6.95; Brooking (West Ham) 7.47, Souness (Liverpool) 7.33, Brady (Arsenal) 7.26; Francis (Birmingham) 7.26, Wallace (Coventry) 7.43, Johnstone (West Brom) 7.42 Meanwhile Scottish ratings are shown too, with Alan Rough leading (but it's stated that Danny McGrain finished as top rated player for the past two seasons too), and Glenn Hoddle is averaging nearly 8 in the 2nd Division....
I've got the end of season page for 1976/77 now anyway: Shilton (Stoke) 7.21; Gidman (Aston Villa) 7.25, Buchan (Man Utd) 7.42, McQueen (Leeds) 7.50, Beattie (Ipswich) 7.48; Brooking (West Ham) 7.39, Gemmill (Derby) 7.35, R.Kennedy (Liverpool) 7.32; Francis (Birmingham) 7.51, Kidd (Man City) 7.33, Keegan (Liverpool) 7.50 seems to be the XI in a 4-3-3 verging on 4-4-2 (if Beattie did play enough as left back)....though Clarke and Towers of Sunderland had high enough averages if bothering less about a realistic formation but going 4-4-2 in general. McGrain top in Scotland indeed, and Wilkins then Stanley of Chelsea leading from Woodcock of Forest in Division 2.
I found the end of season ratings now, and things have changed around a fair bit (now it is Johnstone that loses out to Robertson, if only allowing one left winger...although I'd be a bit undecided on that) Keelan (Norwich) 7.40; Anderson (Forest) 7.10, Boam (Middlesbrough) 7.35, Burns (Forest) 7.34, Statham (West Brom) 6.92; Brooking (West Ham) 7.48, Souness (Liverpool) 7.33, Brady (Arsenal) 7.39; Francis (Birmingham) 7.40, Woodcock (Forest) 7.22, Robertson (Forest) 7.42 Hoddle averaging over 8 in the end in the 2nd Division.
I've got the 1978/79 end of season ratings from the People, via Britishnewspaperarchives.co.uk, like the other pages, too now (we only had a mid-season one before I know) Shilton (Forest) 7.29; Madeley (Leeds) 6.91, Hunter (Bristol City) 7.29, Hansen (Liverpool) 7.19, A.Kennedy (Liverpool) 7.04; Currie (Leeds) 7.79, Ardiles (Tottenham) 7.52, Peters (Norwich) 7.40; Cunningham (West Brom) 7.03, Worthington (Bolton) 7, Dalglish (Liverpool) 7.59 Brady and Souness had high enough averages in theory, but some fowards should make the XI I guess, and Cunningham is a winger. In defence obviously Thompson and Todd are among the top four ratings wise, but Kennedy was a left back and I think Madeley is the only possibility for right back on the list. Brooking has the top 2nd Division average, with Sansom next and then two more West Ham players in Bonds and Devonshire.
I've noticed confirmation of the 1993/94 PFA Player of the Year top 3 (Cantona, Beardsley, Shearer) and Young Player of the Year (Cole, Sutton, Giggs) award voting.... Also from that season, as I use up my views I noticed this page in a Nottinghamshire newspaper, with a piece by a Notts County/Leeds fan, shortly before a famous victory for Notts County vs Forest and after a Forest vs Leicester game (that I went to too) - he compares Forest in that game to Leeds vs Southampton in the 70s and also says "Lars Bohinen gave the best individual display of skills I've seen since the halcyon days of Johan Cruyff"....so maybe that backs up that I'm not tooo crazy when I squeeze Bohinen into an estimated top 35 technical players elsewhere on the forum lol!
Here is the 1989/90 confirmation for top 3s in PFA awards too: Platt, Barnes and Walker for main award, and Le Tissier, Rodney Wallace and Daley for Young Player: Meanwhile, I found the 1980/81 final People ratings too (though the defenders section is hard to read).... I'm not quite sure how many games Butcher played at left back that season (I know he played some around that time in general though), but it looks like that's where he has to go in any case: Rimmer (Aston Villa) 7.04; Perryman (Tottenham) 6.90, Osman (Ipswich) 7.00, Evans (Aston Villa) 7.08, Butcher (Ipswich) 6.96; Thijssen (Ipswich) 7.10, Mortimer (Aston Villa) 7.04, Ardiles (Tottenham) 7.09, Muhren (Ipswich) 7.05; Channon (Southampton) 7.04, Brazil (Ipswich) 7.00 So that's the 3rd season where we have two sources now (Match and the People for this 80/81 season; Starfacts and Match for 86/87, Shoot and Match for 91/92) - I did put Butcher as CB in the Match XI though....