Premier League 2019-20 Assignments and Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Jul 20, 2019.

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  1. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    But then why not give it to someone who is at the tail end of their career like a Dean or Atkinson?

    Nice going away gift.

    So Taylor wouldn't have done it if there were fans in the stands? That seems like a bizarre explanation.

    Although, I think it was inevitable that someone would referee the FA Cup Final again simply due to the fact that referees are now staying longer and longer at the highest levels. Fitness and nutrition has improved that referees are now easily able to referee into their fifties.
     
  2. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In a vacuum, I can somewhat understand this decision. However, I think the underlying reason is that the stakes for this FA Cup are considerably more than just the silverware itself. The FA had this event to give itself cover to put one of their top referees on the match.

    I think it's a pretty safe bet that with Taylor on the FA Cup Final, that you'll see Oliver on the ManU-Leicester game.
     
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because Taylor is considered better right now and--likely most importantly--it's the exact same two teams he did in 2017.

    Yes. The one thing that makes this believable for me is Elleray's sense of tradition (and likely that of the people around him). The whole experience around the FA Cup Final--particularly the dinner prior--is supposed to be the pinnacle of a referee's career, even more so than the match itself.

    So I sort of get the argument and the explanation (though leaning on the family attendance aspect seems weird... I'm sure you could sneak 5 people in to watch from a broadcast booth).

    But there are other ways to get around it. Inviting both the 2020 and 2021 referees to the 2021 dinner seem the most obvious option.

    I don't know about inevitable. The same dynamic you're talking about also has led to referees reaching the FIFA level in their late 20s and early 30s. So there will or can be several new options to get the match in any given year... so long as PGMOL is good at promotion!
     
  4. allan_park

    allan_park Member

    May 15, 2000
    That was a good "shout", but wrong.

    It's Atkinson on Leicester v Man United.

    Oliver is on West Ham v Villa.
     
  5. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchweek 38

    Arsenal - Watford
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Darren Cann. Fourth official: James Linington. Replacement official: Adrian Waters. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Adrian Holmes.

    Burnley - Brighton
    Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Edward Smart, Richard Wild. Fourth official: Jeremy Simpson. Replacement official: Graeme Fyvie. VAR: Darren Bond. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan.

    Chelsea - Wolves
    Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Adam Nunn, Simon Long. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. Replacement official: Akil Howson. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Derek Eaton.

    Crystal Palace - Tottenham
    Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Neil Davies, Graham Kane. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. Replacement official: Michael Webb. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Simon Beck.

    Everton - Bournemouth
    Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Daniel Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Geoff Eltringham. Replacement official: Shaun Hudson. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes.

    Leicester - Man Utd
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Oliver Langford. Replacement official: Robert Merchant. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Peter Kirkup.

    Man City - Norwich
    Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Richard West, Nick Greenhalgh. Fourth official: Tony Harrington. Replacement official: Chris Isherwood. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Nick Hopton.

    Newcastle - Liverpool
    Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Matthew Donohue. Replacement official: Wade Smith. VAR: John Brooks. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger.

    Southampton - Sheffield
    Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Marc Perry, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: Dean Whitestone. Replacement official: Matthew Lee. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Harry Lennard.

    West Ham - Aston Villa
    Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Robert Jones. Replacement official: Lee Venamore. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Atkinson and Attwell for the big ones. Taylor gets a warm-up for the FA Cup Final. Dean, Oliver, and Kavanagh on games involving relegation candidates.
     
  6. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    This was always very unlikely to happen. With Oliver having taken charge of Leicester's previous home match, it would probably have been unprecedented. (Though we just witnessed a 119-year-old "rule" being broken...)
     
  7. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    "Top six" matches:

    Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson
    Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor
    Man City - Tottenham: Oliver
    Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor
    Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson
    Chelsea - Liverpool: Oliver
    Man Utd - Arsenal: Friend
    Man Utd - Liverpool: Atkinson
    Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor
    Chelsea - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Tierney
    Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Marriner
    Liverpool - Man City: Oliver
    Man City - Chelsea: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Tottenham: Tierney
    Man City - Man Utd: Taylor
    Arsenal - Man City: Tierney
    Tottenham - Chelsea: Taylor
    Arsenal - Chelsea: Pawson
    Arsenal - Man Utd: Kavanagh
    Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Dean
    Tottenham - Liverpool: Atkinson
    Liverpool - Man Utd: Pawson
    Chelsea - Arsenal: Attwell
    Man City - Man Utd (Carabao Cup): Marriner
    Tottenham - Man City: Dean
    Chelsea - Man Utd: Taylor
    Chelsea - Tottenham: Oliver
    Chelsea - Liverpool (FA Cup): Kavanagh
    Man Utd - Man City: Dean
    Man City - Arsenal: Taylor
    Tottenham - Man Utd: Moss
    Chelsea - Man City: Attwell
    Man City - Liverpool: Taylor
    Tottenham - Arsenal: Oliver
    Arsenal - Liverpool: Tierney
    Liverpool - Chelsea: Marriner
    Arsenal - Man City (FA Cup): Moss
    Chelsea - Man Utd (FA Cup): Dean
    Arsenal - Chelsea (FA Cup): Taylor

    Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

    Taylor: 8
    Oliver: 5
    Atkinson: 4
    Tierney: 3
    Attwell: 2
    Dean: 2
    Pawson: 2
    Friend: 1
    Kavanagh: 1
    Marriner: 1
    Moss: 1
     
  8. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Nice prediction on Moss ;) Though Tierney and Attwell probably got more of these big games than we anticipated.
     
  9. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very surprised to see Atwell on Chelsea-Wolves. I personally don't think he's up for a game like that, but hopefully Atwell proves me wrong.

    Fair point on Oliver not doing consecutive Leicester home games. Atkinson should be a safe pair of hands for Leicester-ManU.
     
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  10. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Maybe you should start by spelling his name correctly :p
     
  11. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Coffee hasn't kicked in just yet. :D Things start a little more slowly when I'm on vacation.
     
  12. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For the most part, the assigning does make sense. I'll still contend that Attwell isn't the right pick for Chelsea-Wolves based on what I've seen this season, but the others are more than reasonable. Putting Oliver on the West Ham-Villa game and Dean on Arsenal-Watford game makes sense given those games are so critical given it may come down to goal difference between those two. If I read the table correctly this morning (and I did read the table after my second cup of coffee!), Watford passes Aston Villa if they both win and Watford betters Villa's result by two goals. In other words, a 3-0 Watford win and a 1-0 Villa win means Watford passes Villa on goal difference. If both lose and Bouremouth beats Everton, then it may come down to goals scored.

    I guess if you can't have the title come down to the final day, having three teams chasing two Champions League spots and three teams trying to be the one team that escapes relegation is a decent consolation prize!

    When it comes to Oliver vs Taylor, I've thought Oliver is the better of the two. However, I know others disagree.
     
  13. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Is this Peter Bankes first match?

    btw I don’t see Lee Mason on any matches other than VAR. btw there are a lot of 4th officials that I haven’t seen before. A lot of VAR’s seem to be the old guard.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All matches on the same day at the same time with VAR in use makes this a new necessity. If you look at week-to-week scheduling in the EPL, you see a LOT of people pulling double duty (either CR-4th, 4th-VAR, or CR-VAR) and I think occasionally triple duty in a week. That's impossible when every match happens at the same time. So you have the ironic situation of needing to use new names on what is almost always going to be the most important day of the season.

    Would be quite something if a referee went down in a match of consequence Sunday. If I were scheduling, I'd have put big name FOs on the matches that matter and let the new guys take whistles on the irrelevant matches. Why does Pawson need to be on City v Norwich, for example? Same goes for Moss on Burnley v Brighton. I'd also have worked some of these names in over the past 5-6 weeks, so there could be some familiarity before the final day. But I'm just a guy at a keyboard so these ideas aren't going anywhere.
     
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  15. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain

    I Forgot the officials pull whistle / VAR duty. Or VAR / 4O. Here I was thinking the FA was being progressive in giving these officials all a shot.

    Forreals, I was thinking the same thing why weren’t these guys worked in during the couple of weeks, that way someone like Jose Mourinho isn’t screaming at a guy he has never seen before. It also makes sense to have people like David Coote at the 4O position as opposed to VAR (in case of injury) but I guess their logic is that they want the experienced officials that have an idea of what is expected at that level for all VAR decisions? Just seems like a logistical nightmare.
     
  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I realize that he’s more visible because of that A-League video, but I’m somewhat surprised Jared Gillett didn’t get either a VAR for one of the bigger games or a middle for a dead rubber game. Seems to be a bit of a waste to have him as VAR on Saints-Sheffield.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1867 MassachusettsRef, Jul 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
    The logic is only a fixed cohort are trained as VARs. You can't bring in anyone new to be a VAR because they don't know how to do it.

    I mean, I can't crow and say I thought about this way ahead of time, because I didn't. But in retrospect this was a giant logistical nightmare waiting to happen and there should have been planning and adjustment for it by those who should have known better.

    You have a smallish SG1 referee corps and an even smaller VAR corps (with most of the VARs being part of that original corps). And then you need 30 people to fill the CR-4th-VAR positions on the final matchday. It was as simple math problem at best (30 spots and fewer than 30 people qualified based on the season-to-date). If there was more competition for the title, European spots and avoiding relegation, this could have been a nightmare.
     
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  18. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    I’m sure there are other factors coming into play here. Im not saying referee xenophobia but I’m sure they’re wanting to promote from within. Also like you’ve said we aren’t privy to his performance scorings etc.
     
  19. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Well shoot isn’t there already 5 games that matter? 2 for potential UCL (Chelsea v. Wolves; untied v LC), 3 for relegation (Villa WH; watford v Arsenal; Bournemouth v. Everton), and then we can throw in the spurs vying for UEL. So 6 key matches.

    I could imagine even crAzier if SG1 had some key injuries but I think they would just move them to VAR
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. Six matches out of 10 that could plausible affect positions that matter for Europe or relegation.

    If the title was contested and you had one more relegation spot up for grabs, it could easily be nine or ten.
     
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  21. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    At least Oliver Langford has been in the middle of a fairly high-profile Premier League this season (Chelsea-Leicester after Graham Scott arrived to the match late). Imagine Mike Dean pulling up injured in Arsenal-Watford and James Linington stepping into the middle of a game with relegation stakes being that high. According to Transfermarkt, he's had about 50 combined appearances in the Championship the last two seasons and a FA Cup appearance (Crewe Alexandra vs Barnsley, 3rd round) this season.

    Given the stakes, I have a hard time understanding how the Premier League wouldn't make sure its five (six if you count the Tottenham match) key matches didn't have as strong of crews as possible. Given the amount of financial implications, if I were assigning I'd make sure all five fourth officials would be comfortable stepping into the middle of a game with that kind of pressure.

    I get that PGMOL probably wanted to give the SG1 referees as many games as possible after the return because of no game fees during the lockdown, etc. But from a forward-thinking perspective, some of these mid-table games without much implication for relegation or Europe would have been great opportunities to give some of the SG2 referees some legit match experience. The justification of keeping SG1 referees fresher, etc. would have easily justified it.
     
  22. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    they could have put him on any Everton match after the restart! :p:p
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hold on. The EFL Championship playoffs start Sunday, with a match at Swansea. The other semifinals are Monday-Tuesday-Wednesday. Best I can tell, there's usually at least a full rest day in past years between the final day of the season and the start of the Championship playoffs. That separation and rest allows SG1 referees to do the semis (I presume the person who has got the first semi typically only worked as a 4th on the final EPL matchday). Anyway, none of that is the case here.

    Long way of saying... who is going to do Swansea-Brentford and Cadriff-Fulham first legs? I imagine Paul Tierney has Cardiff-Fulham on Monday (which would explain why he, as a FIFA referee, is "only" a VAR on Sunday). But there's still no one from SG1 available to do the Swansea match. What am I missing?
     
  24. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    You're missing quite a lot. Keith Stroud will do Swansea - Brentford and Geoff Eltringham has Cardiff - Fulham.
     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, that’s another new approach. It’s been SG1 referees for years.
     

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