Maybe. But I think you’re assuming a little too much about how VAR is “working” in England. What you describe is somewhat reasonable when VAR is being applied appropriately and integrated into the game fully. But England seems to be reserving VAR for the “break glass in case of emergency” scenarios. Given that approach, I highly doubt there’s much discussion at all on subjective penalty shouts unless or until the VAR has determined a miss is so egregious that it’s time to spring into action. And if the PGMOL only expects several of those all season, the lack of intervention becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Are the English too Arrogant to Implement VAR the correct way? We'll talk about it on ESPN and FOX, every week for the entire season...and you'll watch every second of it!
Will this type of behavior carry over into UEFA matches? Taylor has a matching coming up this week in the CL playoff and it will be interesting to see how VAR is implemented.
I fully suspect the English ref will use VAR to the standard that UEFA expects during those matches, but if they don't I think we will quickly see English refs stopped being used in Europe at the same level has usual.
It’s gonna be like Howard Webb in league versus Howard Webb in Europe. Except now it’s almost codified.
“To this day, people still bring up that tackle against Nigel De Jong,” [Webb] said. “It is such a clear red card. If there was VAR there, and I am sent to the screen to look at it again, I immediately send him off.” https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...improve-premier-league-idUKKCN1UZ072?rpc=401& So, would a YC for De Jong's tackle be interpreted as a clear and obvious error if it took place in the Premier League today?
I still doubt it given it was the WC FInal, he saw it quite clearly as can be readily seen from video and still photos, and the directions they apparently were given regarding red cards as seen in the video of the pre-match instructions from the referee inspector/coach/mentor. PH
I genuinely think that’s the type of play the PGMOL is reserving VAR for. So, yes. But that leads to maybe 1 or 2 red cards and 5-6 penalties for the year. That’s a normal weekend in France or Italy and a semi-normal weekend in MLS.
I think you also have to factor in the ref's style and the way he is reffing the match. There were multiple incidents in that match that involved far greater contact that Dean did not call, and in fact, he only called 15 fouls the entire match. So his "style" for the entire match was to let them play and only blow the whistle when there was a clear infringement.
Three penalty appeals from the weekend, succinctly curated: https://streamable.com/i4nnz https://streamable.com/hi6lq https://streamable.com/7e75r Add in the hold on Rashford penalty and the two DOGSOs (yellow given in Manchester, no foul in the other situation) and I count six situations where I am absolutely sure VAR would have intervened in the competitions that have been using it for over a year. Maybe a seventh, due to the poor flag protocol prior to another DOGSO foul. But let’s face it. England doesn’t want four more penalties and 2-4 more red cards (the Rashford pull down could have been red) so, I’m sure the powers that be are happy right now. How long this can last? Impossible to say. But when this all gets juxtaposed against English teams dealing with VAR in the UCL, it comes to a head.
IMHO the bar right now is the non call on the Martial take down. If that doesn't generate a review, I'm not sure if anything will. And if they decide to relent and start doing reviews these teams will feel hard put to as its already affecting outcomes.
England clearly doesn’t want their league to degrade to penalty kick ball. If you set the bar low enough to consider any missed foul in the penalty area as a serious missed incident, then that is what you’re going to get. We’ve seen that first clip called time and time again a penalty via VAR. Surely all of this is going to need to be hashed out eventually. I just wished England implemented VAR earlier to better steer its development.
Quite staggering. I actually thought the EPL was smart to wait and implement VAR last as I felt the system still wasn't ready. I was completely wrong. They've gotten it so wrong. Watching this and other leagues it is almost like a different sport. The EPL looks so outdated and out of touch with the modern game. They need to realize that the days of swallowing your whistle and looking the other way are gone. This isn't sustainable. Not a surprise that Marriner swallowed his whistle yet again! Over the years he has consistently refused to make big decisions over and over again. He sees the contact clearly on Silva and is about to put his whistle in his mouth. The other two shown were at least defensible and understandable from a missed on field perspective.
They might be but the fans aren't. Of course that's mainly due to this being so far from the VAR they have seen explained and used in other competitions the last few years but still. I'm not sure, I feel like this might lead to a really good version of VAR. Sure they'll need to become just a little less strict on what is reviewed but that can be done slowly over an adjustment period but at least they are far from the "constant stoppages and delays" that quite a few fans out there dislikes about VAR. They have however completely failed to educate the fans (and the media it seems like) about how they intended to use VAR and that might just bring the whole thing down for them. Many fans in England are just bewildered but what they are seeing and the difference from what they've grown used to from VAR, will be interesting to see if the FA pushes on in silence, does some educating or bows down to public pressure. I'd hope for the second option but history tells me it's likely to be one of the others.
IMO, VAR points to the blunt fact that many CRs in the EPL should not be officiating. The three blown calls that were posted by @MassachusettsRef are quite telling in this regard. There is no need to educate the fans and media about VAR. To my knowledge this was not done in other countries that already implemented VAR. The players in those leagues quickly adapted to the new reality. Maybe those running the EPL don't really care as the television money is so great. We also have just stupid commentary during matches and the studio shows (I'm a US viewer) that just get the whole concept of VAR wrong. I regularly watch matches from all the big leagues in Europe as well as Ajax matches and have not seen nearly the screw ups and complaints with VAR that have taken place in the EPL. To me it's just disgusting.
I am interested in thoughts here from another incident from the weekend: David Luis pulls Salah's shirt in 48th minute and penalty is given, but Anthony Taylor shows Luis yellow. DOGSO should only be downgraded with attempt to play the ball, no? Pull, push or hold are still Red. Unless he didn't think the hold denied a goal scoring opportunity but it sure looked like one to me.
Fully agree on the merits. Taylor didn't deem this DOGSO, though--he wouldn't get that wrong. My guess is that he considered Sokratis (#5) to be a covering defender due to proximity, even though practically he had no chance of actually challenging Salah before a shot got off. This is one of those that happens fast and many referees will have an instinct to find a reason not to go red or simply take the "snapshot" a moment or two after the actual foul, when it looks a lot less like an OGSO (Salah is much wider with a difficult angle and it looks like 3 covering defenders less than one second after the foul occurs!). You then add in the layer that VAR in England is clearly never going to step in on something like this, and you're left with the yellow for a blatant shirt hold to stop a goal-scoring opportunity in the penalty area.
I think the main problem is what Mass Ref eluded to in a previous post. I think the fans AND the media see these VAR checks for Offside and goal scored off of offensive handling that they are going through such painstaking reviews of all goals looking for any reason to pull the ball back out of the net, but when it comes to possibly giving a goal opportunity, they just state that if the CR doesn't call it, we aren't going to intervene. Looks bad to fans and the media, especially when they see the same style of VAR calling out these PK's.
Do you think we'll see PGMOL putting out a weekly video explaining these VAR decisions? I criticize MLS and PRO for lots of things, but the weekly video and text explainer of VAR decisions is at least an attempt at education and transparency. And it shows a willingness to admit when things didn't happen the way they should. It's hard to imagine the Brits doing that.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that different people have different opinions of what the purpose of VAR is: Is it to provide a method for making sure that there are not any egregious errors? OR Is is to make sure that every single big call is correct no matter how many reviews this requires and how much it slows down the game? Most leagues competitions have chosen the latter....it appears that England is choosing the former. And I'm fine with that.
I agree with you, it is a BAD example of perception. As a fan I hear VAR coming to EPL and I think (based on what I have seen with other version in other leagues) that things will be similar. They are not, with the EPL version of VAR mixed with a perfect storm from IFAB and the new handling guidance. I am witness to two perfectly good goals being reviewed and slowing down the game to find the most tiny of foul being touched by the arm of a player. Then, I ALSO see a blatant pull back of Martial / a foot stomp on Silva / a tackle of Kane, and I think "how can they remove an inadvertent hand and say VAR see's the error and then ALSO see these clear fouls and say "the CR has the call" as an official I agree with how EPL is doing it, but they have not won anyone over being late to the party and using a completely different rule book. It's not a coincidence that the most popular chant I can hear running through the stadiums is "F*&%K VAR!!!"
"Premier League refereeing chiefs will resist calls for officials to start using their pitch-side monitors for VAR checks as they feel it will slow the game down too much. The video referees came under fire on Sunday as fans claimed Manchester City and Tottenham were denied penalties. VAR neither overturned the referees’ decisions nor telling them to review the incident on their monitors. But English refereeing organisation PGMOL are determined not to rush into any knee-jerk reaction. They will stand by their current version of VAR, which is based on minimum interference. Insiders say PGMOL would rather be criticised for using the technology too little than too much, but they are open to making changes to the system after they speak with top-flight clubs at a shareholders’ meeting in September. It is understood that many clubs are keen for VAR to be more heavily involved." https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...es-difficult-introduction-Premier-League.html
Matchday 4 Southampton - Man Utd Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Daniel Robothan. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Chelsea - Sheffield Utd Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Dean Whitestone. VAR: Tim Robinson. Assistant VAR: Adam Nunn. Crystal Palace - Aston Villa Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Andrew Garratt. Fourth official: Tom Nield. VAR: Andrew Madley. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Leicester - Bournemouth Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts. Man City - Brighton Referee: Jon Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis. Newcastle - Watford Referee: Graham Scott. Assistants: Neil Davies, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Richard West. West Ham - Norwich Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Edward Smart, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Matthew Donohue. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Simon Long. Burton - Liverpool Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Dan Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Everton - Wolves Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday. Arsenal - Tottenham Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Andre Marriner. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child. Atkinson with the big London derby. Dean and Kavanagh with away games for top six teams.
Matches between top six so far: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Atkinson Man Utd - Chelsea: Taylor Man City - Tottenham: Oliver Liverpool - Arsenal: Taylor Arsenal - Tottenham: Atkinson Looks like these three will end up doing 70-80% of the top six match-ups...