Premature Speculation: Just how good is Lionel Messi?

I think he has like 7 goals in 8 matches against Madrid. If he stays at Barca and continues he will definitely surpass Raul as the top scorer ever in clasicos.

 

The way you wrote your sentence it insinuated all three goals were scored when Barca was a man down. Only one was.

Lol. Sorry, but that's an unfair argument. He was as much part of the team as anyone else. He is as much to blame as the rest.

Yes. Ronnie was beginning to go downhill. But he still had an excellent season (not superb by his standards, but still excellent).

No he didn't. Don't make up stuff.

 

Maybe you took it that way. I'll rephrase. He completed his hattrick when Barca were down to 10 men. There.

More proof that you didn't even watch La Liga that year. Barca lost on head to head results. They were actually leading in points and had a massive goal differential. The team lost the title due to stupid defensive mistakes down the stretch and to Madrid's incredible luck. Messi and most of the attacking players at Barca did pretty much all they could to win.

I agree he was quite great at times but you could already sense that he started to not give crap (somthing completely evident the next season) and he was inconsistent. For a large part of the second half of that season his influence on the team was not as big as Messi's.

Ok .

 

Seasonlong Ronnie or Eto'o were much more influential.

 

Ronaldinho was certainly not a traditional playmaker either. He played from the left - damn near invented a position. The fact remains that the unlocking of defenses at Barca when Ronnie was at his peak was almost entirely his affair. Whether it was a clever dribble, a no-look pass or an inch perfect through ball, the magic that allowed Barca to transition from possession to attack was wielded by the wand of Ronaldinho.

As good as Messi is, he is not the orchestrator. In fact, he is rarely the orchestrator. It isn't fair to compare the two unless you just want to look at stats, in which case, fine Messi is a clear winner, but in terms of control and influence, it is hands down Ronaldinho. At his peak, you could have put him on the pitch with any collection of players, good, bad or great and he would have had almost the same impact. He did it in the CL, he did it in the league and he did it for his country.

 

IIRC, Ronaldinho scored most of his goals early on in that season. Down the stretch it was obvious that Messi was playing better than Ronaldinho.

 

Didn't Ronaldinho get himself red carded against Getafe which caused him to miss the game against Espanyol? Was that a different one?

Lets also remember that Messi was only 19 in 06/07

 

You are correct. IIRC it was a stupid red card too and early on in the Getafe game. His teammates came through though and got 3 points despite playing most of that match with 10 men.

 

He tried to kick a Getafe defender in the nuts.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5NJS8RkG0A"]YouTube- Ronaldinho red card Getafe[/ame]

(About 2:00)

 

I had a long response and my computer went crazy. I'm not going to type all of it but I'll write some.

I was talking more about Riquelme.

Dinho was amazing but some people have already adressed this so I won't.

But that's not his job. As was mentioned. Why are we asking him to be an orchestrator? Even then he still has plenty of assists season after season and he dishes out tons of through balls as has been proved.

In control yes but why is it hands down Ronaldinho when it comes to influence? Messi is Barca's top scorer in the CL or is tied with Rivaldo or something like that. Isn't that a lot of influence? He's scored like 7 times in 8 clasicos. To me this is a huge influence on his side.

For his country????

 

Throughout the history of the World Cup it has been a rarity that the player expected to be the all-conquering superstar of a World Cup before the tournament started actually fulfilled expectations and became that superstar.

2010 Messi
2006 Ronaldinho
2002 Zidane
1998 Ronaldo
1994 Baggio?
1990 van Basten
1986 Platini
1982 Maradona
1978 ?
1974 Beckenbauer/Cruyff
1970 Riva?
1966 Pelé
1962 Pelé
1958 ?
1954 Puskas

1974 might have been the only occasion.

 

I love that part of the Messi story as well. I remember reading somewhere that even Maradona would not be as dominant in "the modern era" as he was in the 1980s, underlined by the usual arguments (less space, better tactics, higher pace and so on). Thanks to Messi we can ignore nonsense like that now!

 

For 1986 you can add Maradona without any problem. He was on an even bigger pressure in Mexico than four years earlier. He had the chance to put all his doubters to bed after all the criticism he got after the debacle in Spain.

Most experts viewed the 1986 World Cup as the battle between Maradona and Platini, considering their status at that time and their scintillating form.

As for the others, I would agree. I can't comment on the period before the 80s, but I'm sure nobody entered in a WC as hot as Maradona in 1982 and 1986, Van Basten in 1990, Baggio in 1994, Ronaldo in 1998 and Ronaldinho in 2006. From those, seems that only Maradona was able to resist the pressure, and perhaps Baggio or Ronaldo, although to a lesser extent.

We'll see if Messi is able to to do that as well.

 

Carrying a team in a world cup isn't the only method of becoming a "great". Sure it's the "easier" method of being recognized as one of the best ever, but maintaining this ridiculously high level of play at club level will cement him as a legend.

 

Deco's influence was sporadic. He did a lot to transition possession into attack, but the unlocking of a defence? That was Ronnie imo. Deco benefited greatly from playing w/ Xavi and Ronnie. He was certainly a good player and creative in his own right, but I wouldn't rate him at the level I rate Iniesta. He had far less influence than Ronnie in the final third.

As for Xavi. You are rewriting history. He was a pivot back then. He'd unlock teams in the manner a Pirlo would (from deep) whilst also keeping possession. It wasn't until a few years later that he was asked or encouraged or took it on himself to play a more active role in the final third.

 

messi is only 23, so let's compare him to 23 years old maradona.
I don't think, that diego could to win it.

both have exceptional skills but,

leo is the best player in the best team in the world, while diego was the best player in an average team in argentine league.
messi shine in international club competitions, diego didn't.
in NT both won U-20 WC, plus messi has olympic gold medal and copa america runner - up.

this what made maradona a legend was his time in napoli and in NT 85-90.
messi has a lot of time to egual or surpassed it...

 

But people do LOVE to reminisce about the past. If Maradona was 23 right now - in the media age where everyone would notice and remember whenever he had a quiet game - then surely people would still be saying Messi is the best player in the world right now.

 

During his time in Argentina, he was considered by many as the greatest player in the world, despite not winning much. It's not that he got twice in a row the ''South American player of the year'' award for nothing, and that while playing for Argentinos Juniors and ahead of guys like Zico or Falcao, two defined all-timers.

It's not a coincidence that he entered the WC in Spain with the ''world's greatest player'' tag on his back either.