Premature Speculation: Just how good is Lionel Messi?

How is a 2:2 draw being 'played off the pitch at home'?

Barca played with most of their best players. They were missing first choice defenders, Iniesta and a poorly playing Ibra without whom Barca plays better. Hardly the same as having ALL your key players out of the team.

 

I won't reply to anything else that isn't on the subject. cheers

 

Barca battered Arsenal for most of the match. Their "key players" did nothing. They scored because Busquets made a horrible back pass and because of a debatable PK.

To Maruti, you know that scorline did not reflect what happened on the pitch.

Anyway sorry for being offtopic.

 

messi is phenomenon and he is only 22.

of course, that he hasn't maradona's leadership ......yet.
but if he will stay healthy, his game will improve a lot, his peak is still ahead of him.

maybe compare him to 22 years maradona or other all time greats ?

at club level, I don't think he is worse than ronaldo was in 98.
messi 2008-10 and ronaldo 1996-98 are very comparable and it's kind of preference, who is better.
and messi, now is playing 4 straight full seasons in top european leagues.
ronaldo never managed it. he played 2 seasons ( barca, inter ), had a few years break, then 3 seasons ( real ) and injuries....
and messi at the age o 22 achived more at club level, that ronaldo in all his carrer.
he scored more goals in ucl, than r9 ever.
so maybe let's talk not only wc goals ?

about messi's world cup
first: maradona is a poor coach, argentine hadn't a great keeper, deenders, playmakers. they don't have a tactics. it will be very hard to win it for them.
but messi will be have other world cups in the future
cruyff - 27 years
diego - 26
garrincha - 25
eusebio - 25
zidane - 26
platini - 29
were they played first and/or only great big tournament, so give him a time

sum up:
messi is extremely talented. he isn't a "party man"as many south american stars. only injureis can stop him, for me.
we can only wait and watch his game...

 

Well there's going to be a lot of reasons, at the helm of which would be his form and performance level leading up to the cup. The age thing is neither here nor there for a potential all-timer, generally all they need is a stage to perform on and a ball to get on with it. Messi's along those lines of being a player who could have a glitter-laden career by the means by which he finds himself sitting atop the mountain. He's been thrust into a side that have done nothing but feature in the late stages of the CL etc since he came through. He already has 2 EC's and could well have 6 or 7 by the time his career is done, if not more by virtue of the sides he is in.

Not sure his trajectory would be seen as similar to Maradona's either - Messi is already at the helm of a top club he calls home and there's no way he's leaving unless something insane happens.

Nobodies quite sure what to expect from Messi yet. Will he break top 10, top 5, top 2, become the one? Who knows, let's find out. It isn't unfeasible at any rate. Sure, it's improbable, but not to a level where the suggestion is risable.

I know all of this, but it doesn't alter much. If Messi rises above it all he'll be credited for it and even more highly praised than he would be if the NT was fantastic and managed to perfection. Ronaldinho never overcame the hurdle, the question asked is whether Messi is able to.

If he's everything people insist he is, there's little reason why he shouldn't, btw.

Came across that way to me, but glad you cleared that up. Rooney's career trajectory may also be dramatically altered by the world cup. In some ways this is a Maradona, Zico, Platini, Rumenigge thing all over again with Kaka', Rooney, Ronaldo and Messi now playing the incumbents in the play.

Rooney may not need another season like he's had if he comes up big time at the WC, likewise, should Kaka' show form he hasn't for the last 3yrs... he'll still be credited as if it never happened should he go on and be great at the WC.

I watch all of Barca's games. I think Messi is a good passer and user of the ball, by saying he's less than two truly phenomenal users of the ball in Xavi and Ronaldinho, I'm not slighting him, I'm just calling a spade a spade... or at least a spade that has the potential to be a golden shovel.

Like I said, with the way he is developing, and the level he displayed at the YWC, there's no reason why he can't become stellar in this aspect. But he's not there yet. Not for me, and definitely not in terms of surpassing Ronaldinho.

His passing isn't as acute or consistently devestating as Xavi's, that's the bar he has to match first and foremost. When he can do that as well Xavi does it, then you're talking about a player who has far surpassed my initial expectations of him.

I actually said the same thing as the last paragraph already. Bump this thread in December and some of my views will probably have changed.

let me get at this another time. I'm a bit typed out at the moment, don't really wanna go into a longish one at the mo'.

Messi's conventional dribbling really shouldn't know any bounds.. Ronaldinho's style of dribbling always had the chance of hitting the asphalt on a bad day. A bad day for Messi's style should still see him able to carry the ball better than 95% of other players - he shouldn't have an uneventful WC with such a style of play.. he's been given all the tools to shine brightly over a short tournament.

 

I think its failry obvious Messi is the best player in the world and at club level is immense. However the Maradonna/Messi comparisons are extremely unfair on Diegos behalf. Maradonna was never lucky enough to play in a side as good as Messis Barcelona.

This world cup is huge for Messi imo, he has to perform in two World cups to reach Maradonnas status on the international stage. If he has a bad tournament this year he leaves himself only two more, one of which he will be 30 and may have lost some of his attributes.

 

I know. My point is that he has time. I know that people will be quick to cast a shadow on him if he doesn't perform like a miracle man this WC which is not fair. I can't imagine what would have happened with Maradona if BS had existed back then after the 82' WC. He got sent off against Argentina's biggest rivals. People would have been calling for his head. Messi is in the information age where anyone can get their opinion out there and lots of times it's not fair to him.

No one knows that's why trying to make him reach Pele's level is a bit over the top.

But Ronaldinho was being coached by experienced people. Messi has a coach who's only prior coaching experience was a complete failure. There are no excuses for you to not play a system that gets the best our of your star player. Apparently Diego does not understand this. And for the most part he has too much of an ego and pride to listen to the outside world.

You should watch an interview with Riquelme made recently. He basically pointed out every single problem going on with the team, with the system, and with Messi perfectly. He read most of our minds. At times I wish he were coach since he understands the system perfectly.

Fair enough.

His passing certainly is not as good as Dinho's. Where we disagree is that I think in CL play Messi has surpassed him. You don't.

But why should it be at the level of Xavi if that's not his main role in the squad? Why does he have to match that bar? His passing is still quite good and like the link I showed proved he is far more capable than just playing 1-2's or short passes. The fact that he's played more though balls than any other player in La Liga this season should stand for something no?

 

Now... Messi had had 2 phenomenal seasons and 2 very good ones. On national level he has been OK, but his biggest achievements are at junior international tournaments and the Olympics. So lets not carried away - especially people stating that Messi as achieved more than Ronaldo ever has.

I don't think Messi has yet had such a spectacular season as Ronaldo's 1996-1997 season.

Guardiola is a big part of Barca's success. Naturally without having Messi the job would have been so much harder. But still Guardiola has managed to make a team that doesn't know how to lose. It's hardly as if Messi is singlehandedly leading the team to victory. Apart from Ibrahimovic who has been abysmal of late, Toure who is having an off season and Maxwell who stands out like a sore thumb the whole team is incredible. The ball control and passing is tremendous. Naturally Messi stands out as the best player in the team, but the team is just so good it's unbelievable... Whenever Messi falters (i.e. in the first Arsenal match, where Song essentially disarmed Messi) you have Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Alves, Keita or Bojan to solve the problem.

So I say cool down for now...

He has been on top for too short a period to be considered. Yes, he is tremendous and is already a legend. But lets not get carried away now.

BTW: Almost no one has mentioned it, but his freekicks are very mediocre... albeit somehow he manages to score from freekick position, even though most that go in are actually rather tame attempts...

 

Messi forced various good saves out of Almunia. It wasn't his best match but he wasn't bad. The problem is that Messi has set the standard so high for himself that when he doesn't score people somehow equate that to meaning he didn't do much or played bad.

Too short? Messi was scoring hattricks against Madrid at 19 and embarrassing Chelsea's backline at 18. He had a lot of injury problems which prevented him from playing and a high level constantly but he's always shown his potential at a very very young age. He's been a great player for a while.

Well Barca have a few players who take FK's above him. But even then that's another aspect of his game that has improved this season. Even he admited that FK's was one of the things he was working on the most. At 22 I can onl imagine he'll get better./

What people also seem to ignore is that Messi has only scored 1 PK this entire season. If you look at some of his peers they have scored many. Another thing to consider.

 

For those who argue that Messi is an admirable orchestrator I don't share that view. He pales in comparison to Ronaldinho who at his best, ran everything. Messi does not run the show. He dominates it, but he's is not the heart beat of the team.

I don't agree w/ Savante's assesment of Ronaldinho as the greatest orchestrator in the last 15 years (apologies I don't know if you or anyone ammended it as I haven't read the entire thread) but at his peak, Ronaldinho had a peer whose name was Riquelme. Messi would never in a million years be compared to him. Ronnie had that kind of influence. I would argue that Riquelme was at his peak for a longer period than Ronaldinho and had similar highs but not quite as high.

 

And better than them both was Zidane

 

I said he had 2 good seasons, but in all honesty he wasn't a world better 2006/2007 and 2007/2008. He was getting there, but was not there yet. He has had 2 immense seasons so far. NOT 4. He had some great individual games, but his season was good, not superb.

And first game against Arsenal Messi was tamed save for the first 20 minutes of the match. His shots were also tame, because that was the best he was able to do (being nicely blocked out of good shooting opportunities). He had an OK game, but was essentially nullified in the first game. And it was Song who did that.

 

Even in the Champions League final last season it was Xavi and Iniesta who dominated despite his goal Messi was quiet (by his standards)

 

I think R10 played too much on one side of the pitch, and too much on one end of the pitch to be labelled a player who "ran everything".

 

What on earth are you talking about? You're completely underrating Deco and to a lesser extent Xavi. Ronaldinho did not run everything at Barca. Is this what the myth has grown to nowadays?

Well that's not his job. Why are you criticizing him for something that's not his job?

Well that's the whole point. Why are you comparing Riquelme who was a typical playmaker and a brilliant passer to Messi who's a forward with a much higher end product?

That's like comparing Scholes to Rooney.

 

Meh, call me when he scores 1000 goals.

 

Messi practically carried Barca to the title in 06/07 when he was like 19. Aside from the crazy hattrick he scored against Madied when Barca were down to 10 he scored I believe 12 goals in the last 14 matches. Barca only lost the titles because of head to head results.

Anyone who's followed him knows that Messi has been an incredible player for a while. The past 2 seasons he's managed to stay injury free so he's been able to shine more.

Nope. I know you love African players but please. Watch the match again. Like I said, Messi has set such a high standard for himself that if he doesn't score people think he sucked.

 

You make my point for me. No one is denying Messi's brilliance, but it is silly to compare his sphere of influence right now vis-a-vie (spell?) how the team plays as compared to Ronaldinho at his zenith. Messi can play well while Barca struggle and vice-versa, but at his best, Ronaldinho made Barca ebb and flow to his will. It is precisely why Ronnie and Riquelme could never play in the same team. Messi is not that type of player.

 

a) 11 in 13 games, including a clear 'Hand of God' replica. So truthfully 10 goals in 13 games.

b) Stop making up stuff. Yes, Messi scored a hattrick, but 2 of those goals were when both teams were 11 a side. Only the last goal was with Barca down to 10 men.

c) Besides like you stated they didn't win the title.

d) And Messi was nowhere as influential or as good as i.e. Ronaldinho was in season 2006/2007. So saying that he 'practically carried Barcelona to the title' is ridiculous nad undermines the input of other players. To tell the truth even Eto'o did more for Barca in that season, as in addition to 13 goals he added 11 assists to Messi's 17 goals and 3 assists, while playing 13 games less

Nope. I know you love Messi but please. Watch the match again. Like I said Messi was quite tame save for 20 odd minutes. He didn't suck, but didn't bring much to the team creatively, apart from a few snapshots. For the most part he was contained. They still dominated the game, but it was despite Messi being unable to imprint himself in the game. Forget Song - Messi really didn't do much save for a couple of snapshots, which made Almunia work.

Ok. Forget the Arsenal match. Messi was almost non-existent during the games against Chelsea and ManU at the CL last season. Yes. Messi scored against ManU and essentially assisted Iniesta, but the ManU goal was icing on the cake of Eto'o's goal with ManU pouring forward for an equalizer, while Iniesta drove in the screamer and Messi's pass was essentially a very ordinary back-pass.

 

I'd say Messi will top Maradona/Pele. Messi is very humble and a hardworker. That's the most important ingredient to keep better for a player who get so much praise like him.

most players fail after get the "best player award" (eg. Ronaldinho, Rivaldo etc), but not the case with Messi.

All Hail Messi!

 

11 in 13, 12 in 14 practically the same thing. Hand of god but it still stood didn't it? It's there on a stat sheet. I also didn't mention that during that period he scored his famous Diego replica goal during the Copa del Rey. 2 that day so you can also add those goals if you want.

He got his hattrick when they were down to 10 and in extra time. Making what up? It was spectacular any way you want to put it.

Yeah but it wasn't because of him.

From the Madrid hattrick onward he was practically carrying the team. And yes, he stepped up big time and almsot carried them toward the title at the end. Anyone who watched the team at the time knows this.

Anyone who watched the team at the time also knows that after the 06 WC Dinho' was not the same. His influence in the squad at the time was not what it was in prior years.

And yet he still created some of Barca's most dangerous chances. Look I know that if Messi doesn't score a hattrick it means he sucked but he was nowhere as bad as you'd like to claim he was. Either way its irrelevant since he made a mockery of them the next match.

He didn't have a good game against Chelsea last year and neither did Barca as a whole. And? He still embarrased Mourinho's Chelsea at age 18.

As for the ManUtd game I suggest you read the link I posted a little while ago about Messi's role as a false #9 in that match.

 

Simply because he isn't a traditional playmaker does not mean that his influence right now is not as big as Dinho some years ago. The two showed their influence in different ways since as you say they are not the same type of players.