Premature Speculation: Just how good is Lionel Messi?

I disagree Rooney is the second most relied upon player in the world this season. Rooney is primarily a goal scorer, without him Man U lacks the finishing touch. Messi scores just as much goals as Rooney and yet is also a primary orchestrator of goals at barca(leading the league). Without rooney Man u lose goals. Without Messi Barca loose goals & assists and I'm not even gonna mention the clutch play.

Barca can dominate any opposition without him? Without Messi they would'nt have gotten past stuttgart in first round of the CL KO stages. And the La liga title would most certainly be madrids by now

 

I don't think that one game is a very good barometer of Messi's worth to Barca. I mean take the stuggard game. Barcelona demolished them worse than inter with neither xavi nor iniesta on the pitch. Can we therefore conclude that barca would be fine without them? Probably not? I just think that messi's value at barca is vastly undervalued because of some of his peers. But people don't realize that during numerious portions of this season these "peers" have not been quite in form and he has more than picked up the slack.

I personally think he has surpassed dinho's prime and all he needs to do to cement that is win La liga and the CL I mean he's on pace to score 48 goals.

As you said he's only 22 but he does need to play better internationally to really break through that top 10 ever list. He's young and given his growth I would'nt bet against him.

 

It's a good thing I didn't do that then . I'm not saying that those are a measure of how good Messi is, but rather that you can also point to 4 important games (as Tribune did with Ronaldo) where he underperformed without it necessarily indicating how clutch a player is. Particularly with these 2 given their body of work elsewhere (internationally for Ronaldo and a number of other club games for Messi).

 

Ronaldinho is the best big game club orchestrator seen in at least the last 15 years, and easily so at that. Take whatever you will away from him, but not that. Certainly not that.

What Messi does is something entirely different - orchestrator's get more praise than goal-scorers from a historical standpoint. And by orchestrator, I don't merely reduce down to an assist statistic, but the ability to control a whole game and let it flow through the player in question. Xavi is undoubtedly the best at this in the world at this moment in time and even this Xavi is not up to the standard Ronaldinho set, Messi is a distance behind both in this aspect. He would have to perform at his YWC standard to get close.

That is not to say it's an impossible ask, as he's done it before for his country, but it's what the Pele's, Cruyff's, Di Stefano's, Beckenbauer's, Maradona's, Platini's, Zico's and so forth had that marked them as special before additional factors were added on. All of them were like an amalgam of a Xavi and something else. Messi is not that yet.

Because it's just around the corner. Obviously.

If Messi is ever going to meet Pele's bar in particular, he'll have to do something at this WC, unless, of course, he goes on to be dominant and succesful in WC's at 26, 30 and 34.

It's not a cliche and most certainly hasn't been debunked. I do both, btw, and have read some of those discussions with major holes in them.

Groan.

Xavi's job is not defined by assists. Xavi is the key and the heartbeat to that Barca team, Messi is a sublime component that feeds off the chaos Xavi creates. The greatest players tended to do both of these jobs simultaneously from a #10 role. By that standard, Messi is marginalised and left to get on with a simpler and more straightforward job and can disinvolve himself from plays for minutes at time whilst Xavi goes about his business of dictating everything and then deciding who will be played into what space and so forth.

Xavi's exploits are appreciated by very few. Not many realise there's a real expert in Barca's ranks quietly going about his business whilst all those around him collect the shine and the fame whilst he makes sure to sneak out the back door.

Lots say they understand how important Xavi is, but they don't really.

I think you've tied yourself in knots here.

For me, and I always say it; dictating a game is more impressive than scoring in one. If you're 'the man' and everyone on the pitch is looking upon you as the proverbial sun as they orbit your presence... they get you... they fear you in every moment and cannot put you in a box.. that's something special and it's what Ronaldinho always had over every other player at the apex of his career for Barca at club level and.. as you point out, he pulled out his best when playing against the best defences and the best sides - not just with goals, but with dominant play. Messi has yet to have a game like that... as you've pointed out. There's a marked difference between the two in this regard.

When sides are extremely negative and stifling and allow little to no space, Messi has yet to show the capability to rip them to shreds and make them think better of that tactic. Barca shouldn't have been in last season's final, as an example of how stifling he has found that kind of thing.. and Man Utd stopped Barca using something similar and paid a price when opened up in the final the next season.

These are not signs to say Messi has surpassed Ronaldinho's level in the CL. In fact, I'm resolute that he hasn't, but that he will in the next season or so if he continues along the current trajectory of learning and development we're seeing from him.

Barca are clearly an all-time team with or without Messi. their ball retention ability is simply insane and like Holland without Cruyff, they are capable of going to a final without him, of that I am certain. No side in the world can outplay Barcelona or see more of the ball than them, Messi doesn't hold any bearing on this at all.

He makes something special something great... but it shouldn't be forgotten that they are something special before Messi is factored in, which it seemingly is whenever Messi is mentioned.

Have you actually watched any of Man Utd this season?

Rooney provides far more to the team than you give him credit for, not just goals.

The assist thing is being blown out or proportion here. How many of Messi's assists have been squared balls or short cut-backs as opposed to Valderamma-esque through balls through 3,4 or 5 bodies on to the foot of an on-rushing attacker?

The assist stats has some function, but without further analysis, it is not as quantifiable or reasonable to use as a goal stat, as many things can happen in the build up to an assist that are not mentioned in the assist itself. Xavi, for example, is usually the guy who plays a guy clean through into space and unlocks an entire defence and then has the recipient simply square the ball or whatever for an easy assist,which completley ignores Xavi's key contribution in the creation of the goal.

Indeed. He's got some big times ahead of him. Should be a thrilling ride. We're all curious to see what he can do and where he'll end up.

This could be a very different discussion in a few months time if he's torn the WC to pieces and won the trophy.

 

Messi's your kind of player with the productivity, no doubt.

That depends on the definition you want to give Messi. I left out Eusebio, Ronaldo, Muller and all other strikers from the list I put up in this thread for a reason.

Messi plays pretty freely at Barca now despite his nominal position, you also compared him to Maradona, not me, and by doing that, you're including everything in the Maradona spectrum to compare and contrast him by.

I also don't think a Ronaldo vs. Messi debate has any real grounds to get off the floor from - they're just too different in what they do to be compared unless it's more in an all-encompassing manner of the culmination of their exploits to a point in time.

Point of the matter here is that if Messi is to be compared to players directly, then the entire gamut of what they are must be considered, not just one or two facets of their play.

We're a million miles apart on this. I guess no point continuing along these lines because, to me, you're downplaying Ronaldinho and his exploits by an absolutely massive margin and not considering a lot of things.

Perhaps you don't find them valid, I dunno.

For me, Messi has a long, long way to go to orchestrate games in the manner Ronaldinho did, I don't think that fallacious at all - the final 3rd and its precipice was the domain of Ronaldinho's in that side, nobody elses. Deco and Xavi did work behind him, without question, but once the ball got past a certain mark, it was all Ronaldinho, which is what I meant.

 

What you are saying is pretty much irrelevant, because, by talking about those 15 goals in WC, you are basically comparing their careers. Ronaldo has ended his career, Messi is barely starting his. There are many types of comparisons and the one which you imply cannot be made earlier than 5 years from now on.
I compared basically their styles of play and their potential as all-timers based on their body of work at a specific moment in time, which was May 1998. The WC was left aside because Messi's is yet to come, in just 2 month's time. In my opinion, that is what the thread started by Comme asked for, because other kind of comparison is not possible yet.
As for Ronaldo's WC exploits, they are great, but the brazilian has serious shortcomings at club level, where Messi has done better until now. Depending on what Messi does with Argentina, it remains to be seen how it will even out.

Barca of 2007, in which Messi scored a spectacular hat-trick against Real Madrid, was worse than Ronaldo's Barca and Inter.

This issue has been raised before in several debates about all-timers, argument being that "x, y, z had an all-time team around them, while Ronaldo had a bunch of dross". I will adress the point about Barca later, but for now I need to make an observation. Great teams do not pop out of thin air. Great players create great teams. All those all-timers who ended up playing in some of the best teams ever started with little. Let's take the case of the most decorated team of all-time, Real Madrid.
Here is the list of players which played at least 15 games during the 1953-1954 season : Di Stefano, Gento, Joseito, Lesmes, Molowny, Munoz, Navarro, Oliva, Olsen, Pazos, Zarraga.
The roster does not seem very impressive, not an all-time one. If Di Stefano had went to another team in 1954, (let's say... Inter Milan ) today there would be no legendary Real Madrid side. But Di Stefano stayed and the success he provided Real in 1953/1954 (their first title in 20 years) created a platform to build the future all-time team upon.

What is my point : that is both useless and ludicrous to complain that a specific player did not have an all-time crew to play with. Very few all-timers had this chance from the moment they joined a side. Most of them did not and they had to work hard and show patience in order to reach that situation. From the way is put by some people, it sounds as if someone had an obligation to assemble an all-time team only for Ronaldo's sake.
Ronaldo had his chance : the Barca team from 1996/1997 was solid and it needed only some harmony (which time would have provided) and a bit more depth to become a genuine all-time contender.

See what I replied to Ecclesiastes.

No. These were key, in terms of quality of opposition and overall importance. Other games were not of the same caliber.

Messi was barely half-fit (if that) for the Man Utd game and the team was basically crumbling around him. This is like judging Ronaldo based on the WC 1998 final.

I find it surprising that you would use a game as evidence for your argument, when we have 2 entire seasons when Messi's injuries made Barca's attack quite inept.

I think you should define what "orchestrator" means. What is this thing "club orchestrator" ? Either you are an orchestrator, or you are not.
I find your statement bizarre because that is exactly what Ronaldinho was not. You can forget about "the best". How could he be the "best club orchestrator" and yet fail so badly in this role for his national team ? The only tournament which he played well for Brazil, in 2002, was the one in which Rivaldo had this task.
For Brazil, when he was expected to fill this role, from 2004 onwards, his form dropped abismally. If he was an orchestrator, this should not have happened. Could it be said that Ronaldinho becoming a non-show for Brazil was caused by the absence of Xavi and Deco from the selecao ? Oh, wait...

The thing which most of these players have in common is that they operated through the center of the pitch. While it's perfectly true that they were not shackled by rigid tactics, but instead given a high degree of liberty on the pitch, allowed to destroy the opposition where they saw fit, their starting point was in the mid-center and their zone of operation was perpendicular on the opposite box. It's not a coincidence that the best orchestrators originate in that position, because it allows them easy access to each area of the pitch and they can easily slide in and out of each respective area, thus maximizing their threat and impact on the match. Neither Messi, nor Ronaldinho did operate like that. While they are given liberty on the pitch as well, is the starting/predilect area which matters the most. A player which starts on the left flank has a more limited access to the opposite areas, thus their role as an orchestrator is limited by default.

You went on and on about Ronaldinho being a phenomenal orchestrator and when you decided to elaborate you talk only about the fear and reverence which players feel towards a potential all-timer... That's not what an orchestrator is.

That is revisionist history at his best. If not for his goals, nobody would remember Ronaldinho's performance against those sides. I remember well the game against Milan because that was the first time Xavi made me raise an eyebrow and consider him the best at his position (opinion which he confirmed next year). There was no dominant play from Ronaldinho that night. The "dominant play" belonged to Xavi, which was the orchestrator and basically dictated the flow of the game for Barca. Dinho went AWOL until minute 89, until he scored his wondergoal.
If you remember my discussions about Messi and C.Ronaldo from 1-2 years ago, you would also remember that, when asked to mention Ronaldinho's marquee games, to use the term coined by you, I refered only to the El Clasico demolition but not to the games vs Milan and Chelsea, which I only described as "marquee moments". That's because Ronaldinho did not pull out "dominant play" against those sides. He had a mindblowing moment when he scored a wondergoal, but he did not dominate them.

Barca ain't no all-time team in my book. And I say that as a Barca fan. What you said of Messi, could be said just as well of Barca. Look :

"When sides are extremely negative and stifling and allow little to no space, Barca has yet to show the capability to rip them to shreds and make them think better of that tactic. Barca shouldn't have been in last season's final, as an example of how stifling he has found that kind of thing.. and Man Utd stopped Barca using something similar and paid a price when opened up in the final the next season. "

How can Barca be an all-time team when they are so woefully short of ideas when confronted by a team employing negative defensive tactics ?
As you said, Barca shouldn't have reached the final... So ?
You are an all-timer by proving there is no tactic or opponent which you cannot overcome. Barca has yet to do that.

That's not what makes an all-time team. Having a phenomenal ball retention is completely useless if the respective team has no teeth. And Barca's teeth were and are quite one-dimensional. If a team does not try to challenge Barca's ball retention, but instead pack their own half, if they concede the possession and wait for mistakes to exploit, then Barca has serious problems finding solutions.
You can have a 60% possession and still lose 0 - 1... as it happened to Barca in the past. If Barca cannot walk the ball into the net, they are in trouble. Before the KO, I was freaking out at the idea of facing Chelsea again.

Being the man to go to in the offensive third is not what an orchestrator is. You used Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Platini or Zico as examples, yet when you describe Ronaldinho, your description has nothing to do with what these players did as orchestrators, it's just poles apart. You are attributing Ronaldinho a rather general criteria, which could be said about any all-time offensive player, and then label him as "orchestrator" based on that...

 

Interesting thread, I like it. Some points. I love DS's defense of Ronaldinho, who's actually underrated, especially his Barcelona peak. I'd only ask what orchestrator these days is a prolific scorer? Messi actually is beginning to combine the two in a way not seen in a while. He is moving to the middle more and running and passing from there. His finishing would be wasted if he actually sat much farther back and traditionally "orchestrated." It's just an impossible ask when Xavi is back there to do that.

To take yesterday's game as as example, Comme said he was defended well, but he made run after run past 4 defenders, hit the post, was denied by saves, and made at least one Valderrama/Xaviesque through ball on the ground through traffic to put Jeffren one on one with the goalie. He failed to score yesterday, but this was the very new Messi who is only a few weeks old. He is a mature terror suddenly.

For what it's worth, if anybody hasn't seen this. And this was the young, sporadic Messi, i.e., this was not a metronomic regular occurrence. Still, it shows what he was capable of. It would more accurately be called Messi passes, since many weren't finished.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTIEpqMwCbk"]YouTube- Messi Assists[/ame]

Again, we've just seen the birth of a new Messi in the past few weeks, it would appear (and that's from watching every game). It may be hype influenced, and it may be a temporary soaring confidence, but I don't think so.

 

I've made clear that Ronaldinho was a club orchestrator because he fell way short at NT level. You're making no sense by pointing that out and citing Xavi and Deco - I didn't argue to the contrary. Ronaldinho obviously needed a team set-up like he had at Barca and he didn't get it.

The question here is whether the same fate will befall Messi and make a lot of these discussions somewhat irrelevant.

And no, you aren't either or WRT to being an orchestrator and there is more than one definition of what one of those is.

Scholes, for example, was never allowed to play the same position or do the same things he did at United with England and was thus nulified and greatly reduced. Riquelme got stuffed on a wing at Barcelona. It doesn't make him 'not' an orchestrator, does it? But it certainly means he was as diabolically utilised as Scholes was for England.

You are obviously using the classical definition. but as far as I'm aware, there's no dogma to be read that says this is it [the one and only definition of a footballing orchestrator] and only it.

Baggio, Del Piero and Ronaldinho are/were all orchestrators that don't fit the classical definition because they either didn't play deep enough, or they came off of more unconventional angles where your Di Stefano's and Platini's were pretty much dead-centre all game, every game. It doesn't lessen what they did.


Ronaldinho fell massively short at NT level when he was on the precipice of another level of greatness. Why would I dispute that or then take away from his club exploits rather than mention him being a club orchestrator?

Messi is frequently seen in the middle of the pitch and even starting from there now. Even when nominally wide, he's allowed to go where he wants to and do as he pleases to an extent. The same could be said of Ronaldinho on the opposite flank.

Whilst I agree that it's harder to dictate a game from a more lateral position, it's not, by any means, impossible. Zidane's nominal role wasn't far off Ronaldinho's for RM and a lot of play went through him as well.

Maradona went or came from wide a lot of the time himself.

I'd say the more determinant factor is how long said player is allowed to stay where he wants to before having to return to his nominal role - that is when he can look at the pitch, see where best to dictate from and then decide how he would like to impact it. Messi is being given this responsibility more and more often as the season goes on.

There's certainly more than one definition of what an orchestrator is. If you dictate at any of the pivitol points of the pitch (CD/SWE, DM, CM, AM, SS) you are in some way an orchestrator. What you're saying is the more encompassing type of orchestrator is superior to those that take a smaller chunk of the pitch. I agree. One may just control the string section... you're looking at those who covered the entire concerto.

But you can't simply say someone who is at a pivotal point, and at that point has all play go through him, is not an orchestrator of play.

That depends on what you're looking for and what does and does not stand out to you.
Are you suggesting that to me all that matters were the goals..?

Which is your perogative.

We're going back to your select list of all-time teams being a lot smaller and of better quality than mine here. Yours is about 5 deep, IIRC. I don't subscribe to that - just as with what I said about if Barca retaining the cup this year or if we did it last year, it, by default makes an ATG for this era, to me.

By the time Barca as a side can wipe the floor with all-comers of any standard and not just the weakened husks they're seeing of late, they'll just be further up the ranks to me.

I say it in passing because what's done is done. If we're to follow what you're saying to the letter of the law then this thread doesn't even have grounds to be created beings as Barca wouldn't even have a single EC to their name in this possible run, let alone be striving for their second in a row.

We can talk on these terms [quoted] if you want, but that makes for a very, very short discussion...

Barcelona have teeth.. different kinds of teeth.. you only want to see Messi's. Pedro looks like a very good goal-scorer and others come up trumps when they need them in clutch moments.

We'll better discuss this after Mourinho tries to drain the life out of them, any way.

Not sure why you devalue the benefits of % stats when the opposition don't have it back long enough or with any semblance of a plan to do anything with it once they do. Barca's ball retention is to an all-time standard. They are learning along the way, which is why your dismissive stance doesn't really hold bearing to me.

Let's wait and see someone consummately beat them first, then actually talk about it?

Lots of places are now coming out with 'how to beat Barca' print/text and all sorts of guff that doesn't get rolled out for any old side. That print will only increase in volume, imo.

I think you're underrating Guardiola here, btw. A rematch with Chelsea current incarnation isn't a hurdle I feel this Barcelona would've fallen short at.

See above.

 

I agree that Messi is changing as a player, gmonn.

He's surprised me by being able to comfortably play as a faux #9 and do a lot of things whose subtle nuances will not be noted by a lot of people that watch him, but as he moves more central, he is certainly stepping into another domain as well, one from which he can be directly compared to a lot of players that have gone before him.

The things I feel he isn't on par with Ronaldinho for at the moment are things I'm quite certain he will be, given a bit of time.

But the assertion he's already par or has surpassed him in those aspects is absurd to me.

 

Except Rooney played that entire match where Man Utd lost to Bayern. By the time he was subbed out of the second-leg, the writing was pretty much on the wall. The momentum had already swung in Bayern's favour.

Though I agree that Man Utd probably wins the league if Rooney stayed healthy.

 

Yes, and he went off in the second after having his presence disrupt Bayern enough for them to be shipping goals like they were.

A fully fit Rooney over two legs doesn't see United out to Bayern. He was always the crux of the CL run wherever and however it ended.

 

It wasn't much of a run. They beat a poor Milan, but this was their first serious challenge in the competition.

Unfortunately, it will probably be remembered by how you are describing it, but the fact is the momentum had shifted well before Rooney departed. A fit Rooney doesn't prevent the Rafael red-card or the return from injury of Robben, so it would've been extremely difficult for Man Utd even with a fit Rooney (though not impossible of course).

 

To tell the truth Barca had an easy run this season in the CL. They had severe issues in the group pase, got the easiest team in the 1/8 and then played a severely depleted subpar Arsenal in the 1/4 with Silvestre playing as Barca's 12th player... plus all there toughest opponents have been knocked out by opposition. this includes Chelsea - the only team in the last two years which made a mockery out of Barca.

I know that a Champion's League win is a Champion's League win, but last season they had much tougher opposition and truthfully should have dropped out in the semis.

Messi has been brilliant, but the team itself has allowed him to shine. Its not just Messi keeping the insane possession statistics. Until he shines for Argentina (which he has yet to do) he can't even be placed in the same echelon as Pele or Maradona.

 

This simply derails the thread. Suffice it to say there's numerous reasons as to why Rooney's absence ties in with the season falling apart on both fronts.

 

Well yeah but some people make it seem as this has to be his World Cup. I don't understand why so much pressure if he's only 22. It's not like Maradona set the 82' World Cup on fire.

Well asking him to meet Pele's bar is a bit of a stretch no? It's also difficult to compare different times.

Yes it is. Even the most hardcore Argentina supporters who have criticized Messi have realized that he's being completely missused for the NT. I'm going to copy paste what I wrote somewhere else:

For the most part it's actually been exagerated how bad Messi has played for Argentina. Aside from the WC 06 where he barely played but still got an assist and a goal his major tournament after that was the Copa America and he was quite good. He was voted best young player of the tournament and was a difference maker. Look at the Paraguay match for example where he started on the bench but changed the match when he came on.

I won't mention much of the Olympics since people don't put too much into it but Messi was brilliant and he had a coach, Batista, who knew how to get the best of him. Of course Argentina won.

During the qualifiers his form went from quite good to bad. It's no surprise though that his form hit rock bottom under Maradona. Maradona simply has no idea how to play him or how to try to build a team around him and he went and alienated the player, Riquelme, who probably best understood Messi. At Barcelona Messi constantly has players around him since they play a high pressing game. He has plenty of passing options. At Argentina Maradona has gone WAY conservative when you look at the wealth in attacking players Argentina have. Instead of playing a possesion based game he instead goes for a counterattacking game with a very deep midfield which doesn't suit a lot of the players. That's why it's not only Messi who is underperforming for Argentina. Tevez, Mascherano, Aguero, etc.. are some of the other stars who have looked like crap under Diego.

Messi lots of times is either completely isolated trying to take on a bunch of players on his own without anyone to dish it to or he has to drop way deep into midfield to bring the ball forward since no one else is doing it. That is simply not his game.

Sorry, I don't mean to discredit him. He's been amazing this season but I feel he needs at least another season at this level to be mentioned with the likes of Messi and Cronaldo.

I know all of this. But Messi's passing tends to get underrated lots of times. He doesn't dictact the pace of the game like Xavi but he can and has functioned as an AM creating space for others.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/news/1956...el-messi-retains-top-spot-in-castrol-rankings

He's not at Valderrama's level when it comes to his passing but like I said it is still very underrated by some. This is his 3rd season in a row where he has at least 10 assists. And he should have more but Barca's attack overall is not at the level it was last season.

And the thing is that he's still improving in that and other departments. I remember last season some people said that Messi had already reached his peak. That he wouldn't improve any other facets of his game but he continues to prove that wrong.

 

A mockey? Oh dear.

You are free to believe what you wish was true...

Both seasons Barca were placed in the tougher half of the bracket for the quarterfinal draw. The main difference this season is that the big clubs in England are weaker. Of course, that fact doesn't favour the argument that Man Utd and Chelsea would've done better against Barca had they met this season...

 

Which would be the truth.

I agree with last season. But this season Barca so far has played VFb Stuttgart, who isn't even in contention for a Europa Cup spot for next season, and Arsenal without their 5 best players and with Silvestre assisting Messi with goalscoring. I'm sorry, but Barca has it easy this season. Last season they had it tougher and truth be told they shouldn't have ever made the final (1 shot on goal vs 4 shots on goal and 4 clear cut penalties).

 

Can you go into detail on the bolded part?

There was an aspect to Ronaldinho's game at his peak, which was primarily what you're calling his orchestrating, which I see as his consistent, masterfully insightful vision and creativity used for passing and scoring. That may be what you're referring to with what you expect Messi to attain. I agree that if Messi was displaying the exact same thing at the moment, then the hype would be even greater, but that is only because Messi is showing better dribbling and more prolific goalscoring than Ronaldinho did.
But at this moment, which has been a very, very brief moment, which is why comme said "premature," Messi's *impact* looks to be equal. It's possible I'm projecting Messi's current form a bit into the future, I don't know. Probably I am, because we will need to see him against Inter and beyond.

I would be very disappointed if his WC was as uneventful as Ronaldinho's in 2006. That kind of thing two WCs in a row would be quite a let down.

 

Here's a very good article about the "false" #9. It was what Messi pretty much played against ManUtd last season and has played quite a few times this season.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/oct/27/the-question-false-nines-jonathan-wilson

 

They earned that "easy" draw by winning the toughest group. The quarterfinal draw is the only open draw which is down to pure luck and Barca has had it tough both this season and last season.

Geez, how much would you be whinging if they had Lyon or Bayern next instead of Inter? Inter is the team Barca matches up the worst with because of their defensive approach.

Still crying about that?

 

I know you hate Barca but be reasonable.

Barca played Arsenal without their best players in the second leg. In the first leg Arsenal had most of their best players and they were still played off the pitch at home. Not to mention that no one could have predicted that Arsenal would be missing so many key players for the second leg. When the draw was announced Barca clearly had the tougher route to the final and they still do since Inter is better than both Bayern and Lyon.