Pre-War Personalities and Their Best Players

Has the Attributes also :


Mental Attributes

Physical Attributes

Tactical Attributes hidden ...on the Report there ;;;Into the inside game

Technical Attributes

Emotional Attributes hidden ...and behaviour too !


etc..etc..etc..etc ..

 

I meant that I don't know how to download that database...

 

Orth's Selection of the Best Players in [Continental] Europe 1925. If the most famous Hungarian player were to assemble a European representative team, he would consider these players: Goalkeeper: Zamora (Spain), Platko (Hungary). Backs: Hojer (Czechoslovakia), Blum (Austria), Tandler (Austria). Half-backs: Kolenatý (Czechoslovakia), Fridberg (Sweden), Banasz (Hungary), Červený (Czechoslovakia), Viola (Hungary). Forwards: Kuttl (Austria), Neufeld (Austria), Pierra (Spain), Konrad II (Austria), Rydell (Sweden), Rhode (Denmark), Molnár (Hungary), Gschweidl (Austria), Schaffer (Hungary), Harder (Germany), Sedláček (Czechoslovakia), Dvořáček (Czechoslovakia), Orth (Hungary), Hirzer (Hungary), Čevanni (Italy), Wessely (Austria). [Lidové noviny, 29.12.1925]

 

Credit more to @msioux75 for the idea to be fair, but nice attempt anyway! (nice to see two Nottingham Forest legend players and the aforementioned Billy Walker, Nottingham Forest legend manager, making top 40 of course - I remember from your thread some guy had said Grenville Morris wasn't a lesser player than Denis Law in effect too albeit that's hard to verify and easy to doubt; of course you have Orth/James above Meazza/Sindelar for example and there is a split among us in impressions/ideas on that one, but your call, which would be Isaque's too I guess, does have some basis when looking at certain quotes I know anyway to be fair).

Re: overhead attempts by the way I have seen a nice one at 6:24 here for sure, which was on it's way to the top corner (not a bicycle kick, but an overhead nevertheless), albeit I don't really see much great play in general in the video from the 1921 FA Cup Final:
Wolves v Tottenham Hotspur, FA Cup Final, 23rd April 1921

 

Nice list!!!
I see you miss one player from your top-5 (Roos or Walker or Sastre, I guess)
I'm surprised, Crompton and Schlosser were not in.
I also see, Meazza (contender for italian GOAT) and, his 1930s rival, Sindelar at the top.

 

Should we consider Matthews a pre-1950 player? I think so. If I'm not mistaken, he had about a 15-year career by 1950.

 

Probably a valid option as one of the best, or the best, pre-1950 players and maybe for a pre-1950 peak too, I would think too, yes (maybe the latter point can be in some doubt, despite how old he was in the 1950s, but at least he scored more goals in earlier times and was somewhat more agile and mobile I think).

 

I think I might be right in saying that based on some reports and testimonies (and a little footage, where possible) @CristianoPuskas you do also see him as a candidate among top 1930s players already even (for peak at least) though too? But you wouldn't be seeing him as exclusively a pre-1946 player anyway I suppose (I guess that's why he isn't in your table?).

 

Matthews debuted before Ademir, Zizinho, Moreno, and Pedernera. He's clearly a pre-WWII player.

On the forum, we started ranking footballers starting with Puskás and Di Stéfano. Many of us consider Puskás and Di Stéfano among the top 10 in history.

 

I honestly think Matthews is vastly overrated. I don't think he's better than Scarone, Sindelar, Meazza, Sárosi, or Moreno, to name a few of the great pre-WWII players. Even as a winger, Orsi was perhaps a better player than Matthews; he scored more goals, was as good at assists as him, but better from set pieces.

 

I know that I'm English, but I wouldn't say I have the same impression. I could be under-appreciating some of those older players potentially of course though, as it's a little easier to get a gauge on Matthews (also on how effective he could be in the 1950s - I don't emphasise this for longevity, although of course he's better than most for that, but for showing that he was still exceptional playing in that era, though I would guess the others would still be stand-out players in the 1950s in theory to some extent at least probably)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ll-time-rankings.2128865/page-8#post-42969718
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...ll-time-rankings.2128865/page-8#post-42970207
England Match No. 216 - Germany - 14 May 1938 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 214 - Czechoslovakia - 1 December 1937 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 222 - Ireland - 16 November 1938 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 223 - Scotland - 15 April 1939 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 234 - Portugal - 25 May 1947 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 235 - Belgium - 21 September 1947 - Match Summary and Report
England Match No. 220 - Rest of Europe - 26 October 1938 - Match Summary and Report
thread on Stanley Matthews's best ever game (vs Ireland, Nov 1938) | BigSoccer Forum
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b...bigsoccer-users.2119696/page-58#post-41493851

 

Perhaps good to add a link to this newspaper cutting too:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/british-football-best-xis-1863-1939.2124483/page-5#post-41190722
And to the ratings and comments of the guys on this Italian site for Matthews display vs the Rest of Europe/World in 1953:
1953: Inghilterra-Resto del mondo 4-4 - Game of Goals
Translated comments on Matthews
1) THE BEST Matthews 8 Absolutely unstoppable. Embroidery, cues, dribbling and crosses in a continuous stream. He overwhelms Hanappi and anyone who stands in front of him. Two goals out of four English are in fact thanks to him. At 38 years old, he showed a superior class. More than a wing: sometimes it really seems like a total weapon.
2) Among the British, Sir Stanley Matthews is head and shoulders above everyone (8): despite his advanced age, he plays an exceptional first half, in which he skips the direct scorer (a bewildered Hanappi, 5) at least 5 times, is decisive in the assisting phase and plays only nominally as a right winger, in fact almost more as a total attacking midfielder – phenomenon. Sir Stanley's supporting cast doesn't stand out for their technical prowess but they do if it comes to fighting on every ball,
3) THE BEST Matthews 7.5 The only player of crystalline class of the English eleven, in dribbling humiliates Hanappi several times and puts his hand in at least two goals of the Winterbottom team.
GIOCATORE FRANCESCO SCABAR FRANCESCO BUFFOLI NICCOLÒ MELLO
Merrick 6,5 6,5 6,5
Ramsey 6 6 6
Eckersley 4 5 5
Wright 6,5 6,5 6
Ufton 4,5 5 5
Dickinson 5 5,5 5,5
Matthews 7,5 8 8
Mortensen 6,5 6,5 6,5
Lofthouse 7 6 6
Quixall 5,5 5 5,5
Mullen 7 6,5 7

RESTO DEL MONDO

GIOCATORE FRANCESCO SCABAR FRANCESCO BUFFOLI NICCOLÒ MELLO
Zeman 6 5 6
Beara 7 7 6,5
Navarro 5 5 5
Hanappi 5 5 5
Cajkowski 7 7 6,5
Posipal 5,5 5,5 5
Ocwirk 7 6,5 6
Boniperti 8 7,5 7
Kubala 8 8 8
Nordahl 7,5 7 6,5
Vukas 7 7,5 7
Zebec 7 6,5 6,5


(My own impression was similar; I thought Matthews with perhaps Kubala and Vukas stood out among the top performers of the game, though most of the Rest of World players played well to very well I thought, including Hanappi overall although it's true he couldn't restrain Matthews...which can be a similar case vs legend Nilton Santos in 1956, as it doesn't mean he had a bad game as such just because Matthews could get the better of him at some key moments - I also felt Matthews played very well vs Germany in 1954 when I watched that game in full, and it's the inability of opposition defenders to contain him or stop him dribbling dangerously and incisively and then delivering quality service that stands out even if it can be suggested that his ball skills are better once he has the ball under his control and he can weave his magic with it, and he wasn't so much a Zidane-type when receiving it in the air etc of course, albeit judging his 'old' version for that might not be perfect to be fair).
Fußballkönig on X: "41-years-old Stanley Matthews destroying prime Nilton Santos (arguably the greatest left back of all time), 1956 https://t.co/O0jwyZYtJb" / X

 

CristianoPuskas, PDG1978 do all you have access to the times' library? Perhaps you could count the assists from Matthews and other players of the time in some of the tournaments?

 

I don't rate wingers highly. I have the same problem with Garrincha. I think a player like Zico is far superior to both of them.

Someone once told me that a full-back can never be the best player of his generation. Wingers in the past had a similar role to full-backs, so their influence on the game was less than that of insiders, with a few exceptions.

I don't rate wingers highly. I have the same problem with Garrincha. I think a player like Zico is far superior to both of them.

Someone once told me that a full-back can never be the best player of his generation. Wingers in the past had a similar role to full-backs, so their influence on the game was less than that of insiders, with a few exceptions.

 

I wanted to jump in the thread quickly with my Matthews thoughts. Going back through the seasons the last time I did the exercise and trying to read multiple match reports from different sources for all the big internationals, Matthews really stands out as something special in the 37/38 and 38/39 seasons. He is the complete package, scoring more goals and generally just having the aura of an unstoppable force of nature. Reports from opposing countries repeatedly single him out as special, historically special, in terms of surpassing any previous English player. He is different in skill level than other great English wingers like Bastin or Brook. Even in games like the disappointing defeat to the Swiss in 38 (a game in which the Swiss and English observers agree the Swiss were better than the English, this was not a smash and grab affair), the match report in the Swiss paper takes a whole paragraph to single Matthews out and talk about him dribbling the entire length of the field and generally just being of a different class than everyone else on the field. The observation that he is a different or special player (especially compared to other English players) are constant in non-English match reports for England international matches during this time.

Matthews was capped from the 34/35 season until the 56/57 season. I have no doubt his from was from 37/38 to 44/45 was his peak. 45/46 to 47/48 he is still great and special, but the issues that caused him to dip in and out of the England team from 48/49 to 56/57, refusing to cut inside and avoiding physical contact, were beginning to surface. In the beginning of 46/47 he is available but not selected in favor of Finney. Then in the 1947 Portugal match selectors for England have the brilliant idea of putting there two best players into the same team for the first time, moving Finney to the left, and they play exceptional football which continues until the Scotland match in 1949.

 

I do not have this impression at all during the pre war years, and especially in Britain. The legacy of great creative attacking players is largely through wingers.

Jack Gordon > Billy Bassett > Alex Smith > Billy Meredith > Alan Morton > Alex Jackson > Sammy Crooks > Cliff Bastin > Eric Brook > Stanley Matthews

 

Maybe that game contributed to some Belgians placing him as one of the best players ever, as per what you found, around the end of that decade. Mermens their striker placing him with Sindelar and Wilkes as his picks, and another guy naming Sindelar too, as well as Norberto Mendez, among players seen first-hand, like you showed previously (maybe they already knew Matthews pretty well though, and probably they didn't know all the guys anamnesis mentioned so well including other Argentinians who were not playing games in Europe earlier in the decade of course):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...eir-best-players.2126578/page-4#post-41602828
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...and-their-best-players.2126578/#post-41519889

 

I don't, but the Englandfootballonline site credits him with 25 post-war England assists:
England Players - Stan Matthews
Finney has 32 credited, all post-war, in his England career
England Players - Tom Finney
For official peace time International games the reports here can help for Matthews in the 1930s also:
England Matches 1930-1939
Between the end of 1939 and resuming in 1946 there were other games played by the England team, but the site doesn't have reports for them (there is some footage on Youtube for some of them, and there will have been reports in the British press, but anyway those are not part of Matthews' official International games tally).

 

Here are the war-time internationals: https://www.rsssf.org/tablese/eng-warvic-intres.html
Lineups and goalscorers, but not assists.

 

I...totally partially agree with this and the precedent comment of yours.
I agree that in the greatest players discussion, the top guys are inevitably those that have certain characteristics: not merely skill or dribbling or goals, but the special mix of those with vision, intelligence, personality, passing, leadership, which all makes a team, and to some extent an entire movement, revolve around them.
The capacity to raise their teammates level and the capacity of doing the right thing at the right moment, and of being decisive at top level, and ultimately being decisive in victories. Whether by individual feats, or by their special presence, or both. And possibly do so consistently and in disparate conditions.
This inevitably restricts the pool of candidates to players at the heart of the play and of the team, with particular regard to midfield and offensive play, where the most tasks and the most complete skillsets, both technical and mental, are needed.

Willingly or not, the "greatest" are automatically conceived as such players: Pelè, Di Stefano, Maradona, Cruyff, Platini etc. Even Beckenbauer, possibly the most defensive of the "greatest ever", was essentially a midfield playmaker/box to box who only later switched to a more drawn back position but still remaining a constructive and classy player and a huge leader, basically a Di Stefano playing 30 meters lower.
The greatest strikers and the greatest wingers follow suit, and so do other soloist-type players (eg. Sivori) then come the more defensive players and goalkeepers. It is what it is.

I also agree, for these reasons and in general terms, that there were players on his level or higher contemporary or antecedent to him, and compared to them and to players actually younger than him too, Matthews only has the benefit of early TV extensive footage, and of having played long enough that this footage show him as among the best well into the 1950s, which also earned him the first Ballon d'Or, which was mostly honorary. Had he retired at say, 37 in 1952, he'd be vastly ignored and dismissed as a dinosaur.
Finally, I agree that Orsi as a winger had the titles and the qualities to be placed in the same tier as Matthews, which doesn't necessarily mean higher. Best player at the 1928 Olympics, best player in the 1934 WC final, lots of other quality accomplishments as a protagonist.

What I don't agree is that Matthews is overrated. In my book, there are only 4 right wingers I have seen that were able to beat their man 9 times out of 10, AND always do something meaningful and intelligent thereafter: Matthews, Garrincha (whose dribble is essentially Matthews's dribble), Figo (before going to Real Madrid and proving he was better as an outside player), Robben (the latter playing with inverted foot of course, therefore different). Jairzinho, to name one, dribbled even more than these but mostly did the wrong choice afterwards. After these 4, probably Julinho is my 5th. Fulvio Bernardini after seeing Julinho at the 1954 WC said "A winger can't get beyond Julinho" and bought it for Fiorentina, where he was proven right.
Special mention for the unlucky Paulo Futre, who perhaps dribbled too much before getting rid of the damn ball.
Other players, one example for all George Best, were formally right wingers but were too erratic and mobile and must be regarded as something else than pure wingers. Which is also why Best generally ranks higher than Matthews I think. As a pure winger, Matthews is superior for me. But again, Best was more than a winger. And did a lot of defensive work too.