Pre-War Personalities and Their Best Players

Thanks PDG for sharing these rankings!!!

Just as most cases, they still listed players in "numbering order", so, they listed the midfield line with 3 roles: Mediani destri + Centromediani + Mediani sinistri
But every team by then (1950s) were playing WM or "sistema tactic" in italian words, that's it, a back-3 in defense and two halves.
Centromediani = WM centrehalf = Stopper = Central defender.

It's very interesting they called 3 additional lists:
- Piu ruoli di defesa (versatile defender)
- Piu ruoli quadrilatero (versatile "at square"), meaning the magical square, I think.
- Piu ruoli attaco (versatile forward)

 

No problems mate, it's good when we can discover and post these kinds of things (like you have done quite a bit for Spanish and South American football for example yourself!).

Yes, I guess you're right: after your post I began to consider if it could instead mean versatile in full-back and wing-half roles, but Ciccarelli for example seems to be described more as playing a mix of attacking/AM and midfield (wing-half) roles indeed

 

Btw, unfortunately it seems the 1949/50 version is only viewable behind a paywall/membership on dlib.coninet.it - the necessary page is probably on the archive though (I guess 31st May 1950)....

Assuming there would be a version for 1949/50 and they didn't begin with these final summaries/rankings in 1950/51.

 

And France (I see after looking at another of my new alerts today!)
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/6-star-ratings-in-france-football-mag.2117312/page-5#post-43555878
Nice work with that also mate - I guess ir's ok for me to link it here for anyone interested even though it;s quite far from pre-war period of course.....

 

It's possible.
In another seasons, there's only 1 additional role called "Ruoli Vari" listed with versatile players alternating 3 roles or even more.

 

Yes, true (or possibly two distinct roles like right winger and centre forward I guess too).

La-Maquina classified Da Costa as CF/LW here
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/world-cup-1958-retconned.2133754/page-2#post-42726082
His Wikipedia mentions central midfielder as well as striker
Dino da Costa - Wikipedia

Skoglund for example has several seasons listed in the 'attacking mixed role' category I see (but also some among inside lefts and left wingers).

 

Yeah, that is just outstanding. This right here is one of the main puzzles regarding comparisons between old British football and what came after. Moreover, it also completes the thoughts of others, and it followed the line; the line which reflects that British football from 1880s and 1890s reached peak football. Everything points to this.

Pozzo never really saw what British football was like in 1880s and 1890s. However, if this puzzle, which points to these two decades is correct, it is above 1860s, 1870s and what came after before WWII, because it was common sense that British football was above before the era of these players mentioned by Pozzo. Their level? Well, who knows?

 

It actually matches 100% because I have read Pozzo columns about some of them, especially Charlie Roberts. The fact that he doesn't put Meazza as first choice, even as inside forward — which was not even close to the dispute regarding centre-forward — is the cherry on the cake.

 

I never really wrote about this, but, in my opinion, European football reached it's peak before 19th Century, which is — I must add — indescribable.

 

Before the 20th century*.

 

It's a bit strange to read about Dino Da Costa listed as a central midfielder.
Playing for Botafogo, he mainly played as a center forward and sometimes as an attacking midfielder.
Luís Vinício (Napoli), sold along with Dino Da Costa to Italian teams, played as a left winger in an attack sometimes composed of Garrincha - Dino - Vinicio.

 

I guess the Italian Wiki page may describe it better - "centre forward, and if necessary also inside" (i.e inside forward/AM/second striker)
Dino da Costa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
As schwuppe had showed on that other thread Corriere dello Sport had him listed as top interni sinistre (inside left/number 10) for 56/57 - that season they listed by total points gained from ratings (not averages, and not just an overall ranking by their journalists like seemingly in prior years). That season Roma used Nordahl as CF
dbscalcio.it/team_search.php?team_name=Roma&season_year=1956%2F57
Then like we were discussing they had him among the top contenders in 'mixed roles' category for 57/58, but surely he played quite a lot as CF that season - vyncy does a very good job with DBS Calcio and is Italian, but somewhat younger (in comparison to those covering mid 50s Calcio) and I know getting the formations spot on is secondary in his priority list behind getting the correct ratings added to his site for each player (though when I am helping with English league ratings of 80s into early 90s I automatically try for the most suitable/correct system and player role allocations for each team! - as it seems more satisfactory).
dbscalcio.it/team_search.php?season_year=1957%2F58&team_name=Roma
La-Maquina was using him as CF here (and saying "Dino da Costa's power, technical touch and movement will be hard to stop, happy to be both scorer or creator.")
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/world-cup-1958-retconned.2133754/page-2#post-42728012

 

Best players in Brazilian football:

38- Leônidas
39- Romeu
40- Tim
41- Brandão
42- Dino
43- Domingos
44- Leônidas
45- Sastre
46- Ademir
47- Danilo
48- Bauer
49- Jair
50- Zizinho
51- Baltazar
52- D. Santos

Jornal MUNDO ESPORTIVO (1953)

@PDG1978 Don't you think we committed several crimes at the Big Soccer Ballon d'Or?

Leonidas wasn't even the best player in Brazilian football in 1940. Neither was Zizinho in 1943 and 1944. Sastre could have a claim in 1945 instead of Rinaldo Martino. Jair was clearly the best player of 1949, both at club level and internationally at the Copa América. I would keep Ademir as the best of 1950 for his extraordinary World Cup performance.

 

I'm guessing it's an article from 1953.

That is a retrospective award?

 

Yep

 

Jornal dos Sports:

1947: Ademir (7.79)
1948: Zizinho (8.41)
1949: Ademir (8.25)
1950: Zizinho (8.29)
1951: Zizinho (8.60)
1952: Zizinho (8.47)
1953: Didi (7.92)
1954: X
1955: X
1956: Pinga (7.76)
1957: Dida (7.72)
1958: Garrincha (8.04)

In real time

 

That's Didi for 1957 mate, or a different player called Dida? I remember somebody found that Nilton Santos had been declared player of 1957 Carioca (maybe you?) [I forget with which source though and whether average ratings were used], but these you show are for all competitions in calendar year (including Internationals?) I suppose?

Regarding pre-1950 votes on our Ballon d'Or thread, I didn't vote on those early years myself, but I think generally the guys that did made very good considered efforts based on what they knew. Like msioux says I suppose those are retrospective calls you found then, but also with some gravity because they were for years not very far in the past and by people who were following Brazilian football in that period I suppose anyway....

 

Dida is the Flamengo player. I think he also played in the 1958 World Cup. The ratings are only for forwards. Nilton Santos got the highest rating in 1957, earning 13 POTTs if I'm not mistaken; that was quite a record.

I spoke personally with someone who knows a lot about Brazilian football, and he told me that Zizinho in 1943 and 1944 was not in his prime.

 

Everything I have read indicates Zizinho was one of a number of strong young players in the pecking order for Brazil in 43, 44, and 45. He was not seen as above Heleno, Jair, or Ademir.

He achieved the position as "leader" of his generation in the 1946 Roca Cup and the following 1946 South American Championship. Heleno and Ademir had been superior at the 45 SAC and were equally talented.

 

You are absolutely correct. Moreover, other players, consequently, were regarded as better than him at the 1949 South American Championship — Jair — and at the 1950 World Championship — Ademir. There were some journalists who had him as their first choice, but it seems to be something close to what was Puskás and Kocsis in 1954, for instance. Almost every single information says that, in general, Ademir was the player of the tournament.

Zizinho, however, was one of the best players of most of the tournaments that he played; always there at the top. However, what makes him above these other players is the longevity plus the level he achieved while playing for Brazil, and even in club level. His longevity was impressive.

 

I see that Meazza wasn't the only Italian selecting Raymond Braine, as the Juventus goalkeeper Valinasso did in 1935 also (I can't see any interview with him from later times though to see if he altered his view) - the info on Braine's PES page coming directly from here I think:
https://www.spartaforever.cz/ukaz_clanek.php?clanek=489
"The famous Italian goalkeeper of Juventus Valinasso said Braine was the best player he had ever seen in his life."

 

Interesting that there's a quote on this page about Giampiero Combi, with Pozzo saying he'd put Olivieri top while he includes presumably Elisha Scott, but not Sam Hardy, among goalkeeper choices he named (but I remember Nils Liedholm one time included Frank Swift in an XI and didn't mention him in other selections too for example)
"Coaches, even today, consider him one of the most skilled goalkeepers of all time. According to Pozzo, the absolute best was Olivieri: "But immediately after I would put these five: the Spaniard Zamora, the Czechoslovakian Plánička, the Englishman Scott, the Italians Combi and Ceresoli"."
The ball tells: Gianpiero COMBI

 

Re: Braine. Arne Brustad writes about his experience playing for Rest of Europe against England in 1938, where Braine also took part.

In his book "active footballers" from 1952:
"The year 1938 can possibly be characterized as one of Norwegian football's greatest years. For my own part, it was without doubt the greatest, and I traversed quite a few countries in Europe. I had the opportunity to visit a total of eleven countries because of football.

My name had also been noticed out in Europe, so that I was given the great honor of representing the Continent against England that same year. I was certainly fortunate to be included, because we had several great players among us. Including Reidar Kvammen and Nils Eriksen, to name a couple.

Naturally, it was a fantastic experience to get the opportunity to represent Europe, but there were many nationalities on the team, and how was this going to mesh? Welding such a team together isn't done in eight days. Even if the players are individually good, team play must be drilled in, and time was short here. Our team manager was the Italian Vittorio Pozzo, a fellow I knew well from our three previous encounters with Italy.

The squad was gathered for training in Amsterdam and played a friendly match against the Dutch national team. Norway was playing against Poland in Warsaw at roughly the same time. In a way, this was annoying for me, as I would have earned my gold watch for 25 international caps in that match. Instead, Paul Sæthrang from Skeid played, and I was glad he got the match. A fine lad and a good player who absolutely deserved his spot on the national team.

Together with lads from five different nations, I camped out in Amsterdam, and it truly wasn't easy. We had major difficulties with the language, and it was no easy feat to weld this team together into a seamless machine. We played the trial match against the Dutch national B team, but I will willingly admit that it didn't go well, and I think Pozzo had a sleepless night after the game.

We arrived in London in typical London weather with fog and dampness, just as it usually is in England in the autumn. I don't know if I was exactly looking forward to the match, nor was there anything particularly at stake. The whole thing was organized because the English Football Association was celebrating its 75th anniversary.

But it was interesting to come together with so many different personalities. On the team played five Italians, two Germans, one Belgian, one Frenchman, one Hungarian, and one Norwegian. A cosmopolitan gathering, one must say. It is interesting to mention the players by name — from goalkeeper to left wing: Olivieri (Italy), Foni (Italy), Rava (Italy), Kupfer (Germany), Andreolo (Italy), Kitzinger (Germany), Aston (France), Braine (Belgium), Piola (Italy), Zsengellér (Hungary), and Arne Brustad (Norway).

This was the lineup tasked with trying their hand against one of the finest English national teams that has ever set foot on a pitch. Things didn't go well either, but we got off with a 0–3 loss.

I thought the whole experience was quite exhausting, especially regarding language, as it was completely out of the question to use one's native tongue. Nor do I think the good Mr. Pozzo, who had the far from enviable job of molding a good team out of this material, particularly enjoyed himself either.

At our meetings before the matches, he had to make use of German, English, Italian, and a bit of French, so it wasn't easy for him to get particularly close to the squad. But the game plan was presented, and the players had to listen carefully.

During the match, it wasn't just a matter of shouting to one another in precarious situations. It happened in the heat of the moment that we couldn't find the words for how to express ourselves, so that the whole thing just turned into an ugly mumble, and naturally many funny situations arose."


And the book "the bronze team" from 1946:
"[...] It also became a pleasant reunion. I had previously had contact with these gentlemen, and Pozzo smiled across his entire face as he welcomed me to his squad. On the other hand, I had difficulties when it came to conversation with the other Italians, as they only expressed themselves in their native tongue, and Norwegian and Italian have little in common.

In Amsterdam, we were, among other things, to play a match against the Dutch B-team and otherwise try to be blended together into a team. It was a matter of getting the lads acquainted with one another. Pozzo wanted us to get a feeling for the importance of team unity.

Gradually, the other players arrived, forming a cosmopolitan assembly. I got to share a room with the Budapester Zsengellér. The Hungarian was a medical student, but shared the trait with the Italians that he only knew his native language. I tried as best I could in faltering German, but he merely shook his head. Automatically, the attempt ceased, and the conversation easily transitioned to facial expressions and using our arms. Here I had the man who was to play by my side, and we had to be mute. By this, I was spared from being scolder-down by my teammate.

The training match took place at the Olympic Stadium, and as usual, it was no success. Here we happened to see the lack of joint practice, and I think Pozzo in his heart hoped for the goddess of luck or put his faith in Santa Claus for the London match. There was an opportunity to listen to him after the match, and he had to go through everything in German, Italian, and English. With the help of three languages, he thus had to discuss the match with us. He did this with diligence and tact and was admirable in his work. His Italians were the most secure, as it was according to their system we were to play. They were, after all, in the clear majority on the team, and the rest of us had to adapt entirely to this system.

The short stay in Amsterdam had perhaps helped a little, and the players had gotten a small insight into each other's manner. But it was so little, so very little. Melting this material into a homogenous unit demanded long time and patient endurance. Hot-tempered Italians, impulsive Germans, and quick-tempered Frenchmen must be handled with an artistic hand.

The squad traveled via Hoek van Holland over to Harwich in England and was conveyed from there to London by representatives of the English Football Association. Here we were accommodated at the Great Central Hotel Marylebone. My roommate on this occasion was the Italian Andreolo. Here too, there was no opportunity to talk to one another, so I still had to keep the urge to speak in check.

We were served breakfast in the room in the morning, but Andreolo wanted neither eggs nor bacon. In his desperation, he turned to me, and I exerted myself to the utmost to help him. Nothing helped, and he believed the waiter and I were co-conspirators, so it escalated into a scene. In my distress, I grabbed the telephone, and Pozzo was summoned. It turned out that olive oil made up most of his breakfast.

There was an opportunity for a final fine-tuning before the match, and with that, we were supposed to be ready for this grand event.

On match day, October 26th, we were gathered by Pozzo at the hotel to receive the "final rites". The tactics were laid out in the three languages, effectively consisting of the Hälsingborg system. That is to say, the Italian setup with full-backs inside on the pitch and wing-halves out on the wingers. The center-half played freely in the center and was as much an attacking half as a defensive half. This was a bit unfamiliar for the German wing-halves, but it had to be carried out. And it resulted in a heavy strain on the inside-forwards.

Strangely enough, it was our team that initially showed the best team play, and for the first few minutes Pozzo was satisfied.

However, it would turn out that our inside-forwards failed rather considerably, and when the Germans didn't feel at home in their new playing style either, the British gradually took control of the match.

During halftime, Andreolo was particularly aggressive and verbally lashed out at Zsengellér. Things were clearly not going according to Italian recipe. But Pozzo prevented further escalation, and he was the one who took the floor. I was inclined to agree with Andreolo. Braine on the other inside wing also failed greatly. The buildup faded into nothing because of this.

Personally, I felt there was never an opportunity to express myself during the match. This must be blamed on both inside-forwards, who failed to keep up with the pace. The result became, as is known 3–0 to England, and we stood no chance. The English squad consisted of the following: Woodley, Sproston, Hapgood, Willingham, Cullis, Copping, Matthews, Hall, Lawton, Goulden, Boyes.

[...] Naturally, I was eager to see how my performance on the team was regarded, and it was nice to read in the newspapers that things had gone fairly well. Even so, I returned home with the feeling that I fell far short of delivering what I was capable of.

[...] I will always remember Pozzo, the manager, as a great and fine personality. It was good to hear that now, after the war, he is still a leader for Italian football. Thus, he must surely be recognized by the Allies. Piola is still playing after the war, which is also gratifying to hear, as he was very sympathetic for an Italian. Braine, on the other hand, is in prison due to his conduct during the war. In my impression, he was far too much a worshiper of mammon [money].

How things are with the other players on the team, I do not know. One can certainly assume that many of them were sacrificed on the altar of war.

What I learned on this trip was, among other things, that a team composed of stars poses no threat as long as they are not drilled to play together by all the rules of the art. The experience will remain for me as one of the great ones."


Also he mentions the best Italian (pre-war-) players for him in his book from 1952:
"Italy has produced a number of excellent players, among whom I would particularly like to mention the goalkeeper Olivieri, the full-backs Foni and Rava, the center-half Andreolo (imported from Montevideo), and the center-forward Piola. All five of these played on the Europe team against England in 1938. Together with the inside-forwards Meazza and Ferrari, in their time two of Europe's best inside-forwards, they are well known to the Norwegian public."

 

Interesting to see @TerjeC - it shows perhaps how well the 1937 Central Europe XI had gelled (or at least that the likes of Sas had formed an intrinsic non-verbal understanding of game patterns etc?) although that wasn't vs England or any specific national team of course. Also the 1953 Rest of Europe/World XI, but that's in later times, and player for player the XI was superior to England overall and still ended up drawing I suppose (but the short passing was generally good, and they created plenty of chances anyway).

Potentially harsh on Braine (maybe views somewhat difficult to draw when players can't speak to each other properly too?) as other references do seem to indicate his generosity towards team-mates I thought I'd picked up (in Czechoslovakia - maybe sharing a bonus he'd been given with team-mates?, as well as appreciative and humble reaction to how he was received by the fans etc). I guess it could be just dependent on first impressions (although Brustad was there and I wasn't of course!); it seems he picked up on Piola's friendly demeanour which seems to be referred to by others also (but someone else could decide he was aloof or link him to the right wing of politics in Italy by default/association or whatever I guess...or just criticise an 'illegal' goal he scored or whatever....).

It seems feasible Braine had an arguable peak around 1935 that was also the end of his top form though perhaps? Maybe akin to Platini around 1985 (though his assist/passing game was great in his final season and I'd maybe tend to say his peak was more like 1983 than 1985 at this point), while Antonin Puc might be a similar-ish case it seems - perhaps could be equated with Dalglish, with a renewed peak period around the 30 years of age mark give or take? Difficult to say of course though.

That was the game after which Braine said Matthews was the best he'd seen though apparently anyway: Brustad didn't specifically say that it seems, but didn't exactly say otherwise (I don't know if his memoirs mentioned Matthews in 1952 for example or not)....