Pre-War Personalities and Their Best Players

Domingo da Guia chose Moreno as the GOAT over Zizinho. What do you think, @PDG1978 ?

 

Interesting find mate. I see he didn't seem to select an XI, but if you or @ManiacButcher would like to translate a summary (regarding Moreno and/or generally including the mentions of other players) it'd be interesting to read for us all I think.

It is from some point in the 1940s is it? He seems to know River Plate players well, but I guess he could also be influenced by Brazil vs Argentina games:
Brazil - Argentina, 15/01/1939 - International Friendlies - Match sheet | Transfermarkt
Argentina 2-1 Brazil (17 Jan. 1942) | 1942 Copa América | Football | Athlet.org

I guess it is similar here where Liedholm would include (or mention in the summary somewhere) some players partially from what he saw on TV/film (or in the stadium) and partially it can be based on when he played vs them (or alongside them in several cases obviously):
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-74#post-43441191
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/interesting-best-xi.325564/page-74#post-43441304
eg for the mention of Mortensen for inside right, and in 1988 the selection of Swift; also Finney although he put him as left winger, not right winger where he played that day:
England Match No. 238 - Sweden - 19 November 1947 - Match Summary and Report
For Bozsik, Kocsis:
Sweden - Hungary 2 : 2, 1949.06.19. (photos, data) • hivatalos, barátságos válogatott mérkőzés • Magyarfutball.hu
For Loustau:
European Trip of CA River Plate 1951/52
Combined Inter/ACMilan 3-3 River Plate [at San Siro, Milan]
[Skoglund 6, Broccini 27, Lorenzi 89; Prado 37, Vernazza 71, Loustau 90]

Combined Inter/ACMilan: Buffon (Ghezzi); Silvestri (Giovannini)(Menegotti), Giacomazzi (Tognon); Grosso (Pardulazzi), Fattori (Annovazzi), M.Neri; (Bonomi)
Armano (Frignani), Wilkes (Gren), Broccini (Lorenzi), L.Skoglund (Liedholm), Renosto II (Nyers).
River Plate: Rocha; J.Ramos, L.Soria (Pérez); N.Yácono (Montes), J.Venini, H.Ferrari;
S.Vernazza, J.J.Pizzuti (De Zorzi), E.Prado, A.Labruna, F.Loustau.

 

Domingos da Guia said:
- He played for 25 years without stopping, always as a starter.
- Champion in Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay.
- Cherro, from Boca Juniors, very good player.
- Mentions the names of Barnabé Ferreyra, Porta, Pedernera, and Di Stéfano. However, none of them was better than Moreno.
- Romeu Pelliciari and Zizinho were great players, but Moreno was the greatest player he saw playing football.


I will try to find other interviews with Domingos.

 

The best team of all time, selected by Domingos da Guia in 1953.

Batatais; Salomón - Italia; Zezé Procópio - Fausto - Dino; Zizinho - Tim; Filó - Leônidas - E. Garcia.

 

I guess this is interesting @anamnesis del fútbol as he now puts in not only Zizinho but also Tim as inside forward (but isn't keeping it to Brazil players only, as we can see from Enrique Garcia being the choice for left wing or Salomon for right/centre back for examples).

Do we have a year for the first piece? 25 years from the start of his career would put it in the same ballpark he picked that XI, curiously, I suppose....

 

Exactly. It would be interesting to have more information from the source about this excerpt from the article published in Spanish.

Regarding Moreno, he has always been a highly respected and revered player by the Brazilian press and players, especially by his contemporaries.

 

Hi mate. This interview from El Gráfico may be from 1957

 

Sorry for the late answer. I meant in another way.

I know how many statues they have, although they have no idea how important they are.

What I meant to say is that MTK should be treated as a gem. They were definitely an important club, their sons teached beautiful football all around the world — more than many other clubs combined. This is coming from a person who supports Ferencváros.

I am writting a book regarding this club, I already knew almost all information available, but it is just impressive to read everything again.

 

You meant somebody else (or multiple others) could/should have been mentioned in the write-up maybe (feel free to explain in which way if it's not this of course, if you want to)?

 

Sorry, @PDG1978 . I just edited my thread. I was about to post another one, but I felt like editing mine.

 

Association revealed some important sides regarding knowledge and tactical contribution. MTK is one of them, alongside Arsenal, Italy, etc...

Arsenal is probably the most important of them tall.

 

No worries, I repped the top post now I read it in full.

 

The software offered me this translation (I'm just copying and pasting but clearly the captions for included players are mixed in with the text) - they put it an interesting way seemingly ("forming the two best clubs") which aligns with a peak-form assessment maybe if that's how the Swedish publication described it also. Interesting maybe that Schaffer ends there but wasn't mentioned by Jozsef Nagy (who included Orth and Braun):

"Football-variety coming dia ntalmoo Football-variety coming dia ntalmoo The squadron A Swedish newspaper chose 11 aces to form what could be deideal of all time - Then it took care to launch a second "team" A Swedish newspaper, the Arbetet of Malmoe, on the basis of a survey carried out by its competent offices, published which would be the two best football clubs in the world, formed with players of all 1 times and from all continents. These: Team * A > — Zamora (Spain); Hapgood (England), Caligaris (Italy), Boszik (Hungary), Wright (England), Andrade (Uruguay); Matthews (England), Didì (Brazil), Di Stefano (Spain), Pelé (Brazil),. Gento (Spain). Team < B » — Planicka (Czechoslovakia), Minelli (Swiss), Janes (Germany) ; Netto (U.S.S.R.), Giorgio Saroal (Hungary), Ciakovski (Yugoslavia); Garrlncha (Brazil), Schaffer (Hungary), Piola (Italy), P. Walter (Germany), Orsi' (Italy). Of course, these are personal opinions, which could so easily be countered, also because 1 forgotten players are many and they are well-known players with skills recognized by all. Let's take some examples of forgotten athletes: as goalkeepers the Italian Combi and the Austrian Hiden; among the full-backs Rosetta, De Vecchi, Maroso, the French Mattler and the Austrian Schmaus; the midfielders Monti and Parola; and left Tarlino: Oaligaria Goalkeeper: Zamora Right Tarlino^ Hapgood Halanitro midfielder: Andrade. Halfback: Wright Right midfielder: Boazik Left half winger: Pelé Right half yard: Oidi Center forward: Di Stefano Winger: Matthews Siitis i Pini, snia problems JRoooo disappointed deal reoupsro of imri finished the team that is worth the first strikers' Meazza, Ferrari, Bonlpertl, Mazzola, Gren, Nordahl, Lledholm, t czech-, Slovaks Svoboda - and Puc, the Argentine Labruna, and many others. Football' — it is known — is a debatable matter. This investigation carried out by the Swedish newspaper is therefore interesting as, simple curiosity, certainly not as an absolute value. The Swedish newspaper technicians who were responsible for drawing up the two formations must also — for an easily understandable sense of modesty — have deliberately forgotten the big C's of Scandinavian football. Men of the calibre of Nordhal, Gren and Liedholm have accomplished feats that cannot be ignored in such cases; With a long and brilliant career, also from a moral point of view, they have deserved such vast esteem and consideration that their inclusion in the formations would have seemed justified. However, three Italians find a place in the two "selections": 11 full-back Caligaris, the centre-forward Piola, the left winger Orsi, the first two of the Piedmontese school (the great Juventus full-back is from Casale, Piola from Vercelli), the third who has reached his greatest notoriety in the ranks of Juventus in the five-year period."

Mentioned possible inclusions of La Stampa in bold therefore above now (notice they put a special emphasis on Gre-No-Li and even suggest the Swedish publication shows modesty to exclude them, even though it may be that La Stampa hold them in higher esteem in theory - Nagy only put in Gren but I guess may have seen them in Sweden but not so much playing in Italy....)

 

Thanks for translation, mate. I would like to make a couple of comments:
- There's no info which Andrade they picked (I assumed is Victor Rodriguez Andrade for his photo)
- In team-B were picked: Gyorgy Sarosi, Cajkovski (Zlatko?) and Fritz Walter.
- Just two mids were picked as HM: Monti and Parola. Then, article said: ..., and forwards: Meazza, Ferraris..."
- I'm not sure, HM were added by italian Stampa Sera, or original swedish newspaper.

 

No worries mate - I kind of found the translated text by accident after clicking the link CP entered lol (so I thought it made sense to share it).

Yes, some names were altered by the translation software I suppose. I would think it is Zlatko Cajkowski yes, but in Team A it does seem a bit unclear which Andrade is included (because even if La Stampa did assume it was VR Andrade it's possible they assumed wrongly if they only saw the surname maybe? - and JL Andrade did sometimes play as left half too (like VR) and some players from the 1920s are included).

I feel pretty confident that those HMs (or feasible inclusions in their view) were named by La Stampa (Stampa Sera was the evening edition of La Stampa newspaper it seems) journalists, just because of a) how the translation reads to me (showing opinion that these players could have been good candidates in their view) and b) the strong ties to Italian football, though with a few foreign names also including some who never played in Italy....

 

Btw @msioux75 I maybe shouldn't have bolded Tarlino in the translation: maybe that is a reference to the left half position (and there is another different player mentioned there ? - yes it seems that the only two for 'centre half' that La Stampa names are Monti and Parola indeed), not a player surname....

 

I think, the software used, mixed columns of the article with text at the photos.

Original columns, said: "... i centromediani Monti e Parola; e gli attacanti Meazza, Ferrari,..."
Translated as: "...the Centrehalves Monti and Parola; and forwards Meazza, Ferrari,..."

Thanks again, for make translation, especially for readers in english.

 

McWilliam was Scottish to be fair of course (but playing in England, and one of the early exponents/advocates of pass and move style of play):
Peter McWilliam - Wikipedia

Meredith was Welsh too, but also a legend in old English league football.

Do we have a definite identification of the Charlie Bell he's put at left half?

Putting two and two together (after the comments you found about Alex James from him before) it could seem like he would pick Puskas as best ever player at that point, but it's a bit speculative to conclude that still maybe. This selection was before the England-Hungary 1953 game but after the Italy-Hungary game in Rome where Puskas played a starring role with impressive goals, but I guess he knew him quite well before then already probably....

He does imply he saw Pedernera playing, but I guess it's hard to be sure if he spent some time in Argentina, or Colombia, or whether he watched lengthy cinefilm type footage or something maybe....?

Olivieri over Combi is a notable choice I guess, while Roberts (who he famously did admire when in England) and Orth as his centre halves in that order is also interesting to see confirmation of. I forget now if you or anyone has noted things he said about Orth (it's difficult to recall all of the various views of these guys easily lol), but I guess he could watch him playing in Hungary at some points - Pozzo 'interacted' with Jimmy Hogan apparently - Orth wasn't in the team for this game though anyway:
Hungary - Italy, 06/04/1924 - International Friendlies - Match sheet | Transfermarkt

EDIT - Pozzo gets a mention (re: appreciating McCracken's use of offside trap!) on McCracken's Wiki page I see (McCracken also not being English - Irish in his case, although playing some games representing England too actually apparently - but another Newcastle United player).
Bill McCracken - Wikipedia

 

Although Orth did play in these games (but Pozzo at least wasn't the coach I believe for Italy - he could still watch the games I guess though anyway)
Italy v Hungary, 18 January 1925 - 11v11 match report
Italy v Hungary, 04 March 1923 - 11v11 match report

But yeah perhaps he knew him well enough from late 1910s, early 1920s already.

Roberts and Orth would be quite different centre half players I suppose, and certainly Pedernera and Dean would be very different in style and approach.