Pre-War Personalities and Their Best Players

Yes, it's true that there were numerous incorrect calls in the old days, and controversial allowed/disallowed goals - I didn't mean to challenge your statement about that but just to use your post as a reference to the other one, because in that instance it seemed to me that the offside player was the one standing behind the Barca players (not the highlighted one), even if I don't strictly recall it without seeing a video clip (maybe because it was not a controversial moment though, since the offside call with the rules of those days as opposed to today would not be incorrent when Boban plays the ball from the left).

By the way thanks @Isaías Silva Serafim for your rep: I realise now I made a mistake in tagging you as it should have been @Isaque Argolo of course though (who I was saying would know more about Orth than myself).

 

It seems that @PDG1978 tried to quote me on this one — and I would like to talk about a serious research point.

I was about to directly answer the post, but I noticed the amount of assists published. I will be incisive: there is no possible way to collect assists of old players. That's it. It is not debatable, and it does not have any room for otherwise. I know people believe this type of thing is valid by reading the reports of the newspapers, but that just does not work like that. I am saying this because I have seen people trying to sell assists of old players on this website and elsewhere; trying to scam those who do not understand.

When I started collecting data, I also believed that the reports were precise enough to give the assists of the players — https://prnt.sc/xpq6VfbTW8xY —, but they just weren't, that is how it used to work back in the day, many of the reports were not precise to give the actual play. Some does not even have the right goal scorer or even whether the footballer was actually playing.

If anyone disagrees with what I am saying, just do the following: since there's video of Pál Titkos' goal in the 1938 World Cup final, I would like someone to provide me with a direct newspaper report of the play — and correct. Not even Nemzeti Sport reproduces the play correctly, thus giving an assist to Dr. Sárosi. Therefore, if this is not even precise while at a stage such as the World Cup final, what about Nemzeti Bajnokság I, Magyar Kupa, etc? Moreover, that is not unique for the Hungarian territory, but for all territories.

This is from someone who collected all Bican's ""assists"" and found out that they were just not valid, while confirming by video. Some of them might have been precise? Yes. Is that precise enough to be a valid research, therefore validating the methodology? No.

I am not saying that is your case, but if you ever find people posting assists of old players, either they are scammers; either they are ignorant enough to not know how reports worked back in the day.

That is a tip which I am giving to you. I have seen people losing money because of this.

 

These numbers are great because they can be dissected to reflect Orth and the time which he played.

I can see the low amount as being mitigated, I believe, to Hadbajnokság I., Nemzeti Bajnokság I., Magyar Kupa and both matches which Orth played in KK 1927. However, this whole amount does not reflect his greatness, because the glory achieved by him was from another time. Orth was from a time where most of the great matches were Nemzetközi Barátságos against some of the best teams in Europe. Depending on the match, the friendly was highly above the league, especially if it was against one of the English sides.

Therefore, most of his outstanding matches were not mentioned, while at least half of his games were excluded by the sum.

Regarding the amount of goals, well, there is a myriad of aspects which could be mentioned. First: Orth himself: Orth was the John Goodall's type of footballer; versatile enough to be placed on every single position. He played alongside Feldmann as full-back and also as half-back, therefore not being able to score that much for his side. While being a foward, he would scheme form behind or play as an outside player. Moreover, Orth was mainly a passer as centre-forward, just like G. O., always scheming for others, organizing the teams movement, as Baloncieri and Bensemann said:

Baloncieri: One player who exrted the influence of his own style on the attacking line was Orth. When the action had began with him, it unfolded with great uniformity, bringing the characteristics of the leader into his development.

Bensemann: The manner and art with which Orth, whom I had often seen play, but never had a great opinion of, led his forward line on this occasion, reminded me of the days of G. O. Smith (England's best centre-forward of all time.) and the best days of the Corinthians.

Hence, it is very much conclusive the main aspect of Orth as a creator, although the Hungarian still had one of the best shots of all-time, as we can we with his mesterhármas.

Scoring a lot of goals does not mean being great at shooting or better than a player which scores less. I saw that @PDG1978 commented about the old offside rule. People may not believe in this, but back in the day it was much more difficult to score, especially in the first half of the 1920s, which was when Orth reached his peak. The goal average was below John Goodall's era — by far —, Pelé's era — by far — and today's Premier League and La Liga, because of how difficult it was and the one-back system, which was one of the reasons of why they changed the rule in 1925.

Between 1863 and 2025, one of the most difficult times to score belonged to the first half of the 1920s, especially, as I can remember, in Hungary and Uruguay. For instance, Petrone was the top scorer of 1924 Uruguayan League which had something close to an average of 2.00 — which was outstanding low. Thus, yes, Orth's peak — 1920-1925 — was way harder to score even if we compare to today's football. That is one of the reasons of why he did not score as much as Puskás and Deák.

The final reason was the injuries, which I do not need to explain.

Still, if we count everything, Orth did have a short career, even with what I said, but, from my own experience, I have only read texts so beautifully written of two players: Zamora and Orth. Here is one:

György Orth donned the national team jersey for the twenty-sixth time on Sunday. I feel that it is unnecessary to praise Orth, since even on the day of his first anniversary, his knowledge shines in the dazzling light that captivated the crowds in the stands when he first appeared on the big field, and his game speaks for him more than any praiseworthy criticism.

If we do try to greet him with a festive bouquet from the words of the audience's love and appreciation of the critics on this occasion, it is not so much for the player as it is for György Orth, his dear good friend, the upright man, with the valuable qualities — blessed man.

Even those who can only admire his noble art of play from afar, but do not know him personally, must feel that the one who controls not only the ball, but also the game with so much reason and intelligence, with such superior knowledge, is more than a god-given football player. Beyond the wonderful technical ability of the legs, it is impossible not to see the shining signs of dedication rising to the point of art, which combine György Orth's football game into a noble value. He is not a football player, but a stubborn, defiant artist who dominates moods, whose soul sometimes strays far from everything that happens on the pitch.

He daydreams about some lovely thought and wakes up from the overwhelming charm of sweet reverie to reality only when the audience, annoyed by his apparent inaction, urges him to action with strong "Orth — Orth" shouts.

Perhaps it is not nice to disrupt the soft-spoken symphony of solemnity with a crescendo of sincerity, but György Orth's value has now passed into the public consciousness to such an extent that, even on such occasions, it cannot be hurtful if the sad feelings that fill everyone find an echo in these lines of true love and appreciation, who is watching his unparalleled career with fearful concern.

György Orth still owes Hungarian sports; his knowledge and art have still not developed to the extent that we rightly expect from him; he has not yet realized all the hopes that he brought to life in the Hungarian football circles at the beginning of his career with his great enthusiasm.

I would like to finish this by saying that here, in Brazil, people usually say that Pelé stopped a war. When Tandler ended Orth's career he almost caused a war a little bit after the end of the Great War. That was his impact.

 

I'm not upset with what you're saying, but I assure you I know the people who conducted this investigation, not for profit, and with complete honesty. Furthermore, the translator of the newspaper reports is Hungarian. Obviously, it will never be the same as the footage, but it's what we have available. Nothing is perfect, of course. Even with footage, there are goals and assists that aren't credited correctly.

 

But you can't deny that Orth played on a team that had a very high goal-scoring ratio.

1916-17 113 goals in 22 games (5.14)
1917-18 147 goals in 22 games (6.68)
1918-19 116 goals in 22 games (5.27)
1919-20 113 goals in 28 games (4.04)

It was a huge difference compared to the teams that finished second behind MTK. Even when the goal ratio dropped in the 20s, MTK still had a big lead between 1921 and 1925.

 

I know there are people who research with the aim of being as accurate as possible. I myself researched such statistics in such a way— ignorance on my part. I even mentioned that there are people who do this to deceive others. The amount of content that I receive because someone thought/bought a pack of assists of Puskás/Pelé/Matthews made me write the above answer.

For instance: https://prnt.sc/jBRtnsqgbhcK.

I used Pál Titkos' goal precisely because I speak/understand Hungarian, as it was the first language I learned in this field due to its rich history. Although the person who investigated this was well-intentioned, unfortunately, nothing changes the fact that the research is almost completely random. Following this methodology, there will obviously be plays that will be reproduced in the newspaper report, but the number of others that were incorrectly applied renders the research invalid.

Honestly, I see no difference in randomly saying that Puskás had something close to 400 assists compared to that. Both my guess and following the reports will reflect a similar number.

 

And I agree with you; there is no question about that. That is why I said regarding 1920-1925:

 

I greatly appreciate the sacrifice of these people who do research without any benefit. You know very well how difficult it is to research statistics on past players. It also takes a lot of time to compile this data. Puskás's 360 assists seems close to reality to me. It's not the same as someone telling me, without investigating any report, that Puskás has 400 assists.

 

I need help rewording this post, especially regarding the first three decades of the 20th century. I'm particularly unhappy with Sheffield Wednesday. I didn't find a dominant team between 1901 and 1905. I also think I was unfair to Juventus between 1996 and 2000.

Best teams by lustrum:

1901-05 Sheffield Wednesday🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
1906-10 Newcastle🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
1911-15 Blackburn Rovers🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
1916-20 Nacional🇺🇾
1921-25 Huddersfield Town🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
1926-30 Rangers🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
1931-35 Arsenal🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
1936-40 Independiente🇦🇷
1941-45 River🇦🇷
1946-50 Vasco🇧🇷
1951-55 Honvéd🇭🇺
1956-60 Real Madrid🇪🇦 pic.twitter.com/fd7lamXwLJ

— Anamnesis del fútbol (@AnamnesisF) January 11, 2025

 

In the end it is the same, what differs is who tells you. If I randomly say Puskás has 400 assists, it is me telling you something false; if the reports tells you Puskás has 360 assists, it is just false as well, because the reports barely told the exact play back in the day. Henceforth, It would be another random amount of data, which is far from being an exact number.

Another thing which makes it a direct conflict is the amount of newspapers. For instance, compare Nemzeti Sport with Sporthírlap or L'Auto with L'Echo des Sports. They barely matched the reports, how would one know which one is the right one or whether both of them are wrong? That's impossible, unless luck blesses you with the right answer.

People who do this type of work tend to believe they found a way of collecting old players assists. I know this take time, etc, but, sorry, unfortunately they lost their time believing they found their assists. They found players (many times not even the right player) who the newspapers said was the last one before another one scored at most, which, again, is far from reflecting the reality.

 

I understand your point, but I'd rather know the newspaper statistics than have no information at all. Anyway, could you help me with my post on the best teams by five years? Maybe you can convince me to correct some of my decisions.

 

Your chocies are very good. Some intervals are so balanced that others choices could be made, especially regarding the 1920s, but that is just based on opinion. However, I will give my opinion on a single one.

Today I have the perspective that the Millonarios side of 1951-1955 would be superior to Bp. Honvéd, especially when Di Stéfano was their centre-forward. This side was just outstanding; having Cozzi, Rossi, Pedernera and Di Stéfano as their main engines. Honvéd was also another great side, but they became more popular with time, just like Torino.

Nevertheless, I could give this as my opinion before the starting point of your list:

1881-1985: Queen's Park.
1886-1990: North End.
1891-1895: Sunderland.
1896-1890: Aston Villa.

The North End side seems to be the best of all teams between 1881-1960, maybe the best of all-time.

 

Millonarios is a great option. It's a shame its team was dismantled in 1953. Other options I really like are Corinthians and River Plate. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think the best football was in the 1950s.

 

Today is 08.09.1925. Exactly 100 years ago Tandler mitigated Orth's career.

I would like to publish his entire run, with each match, his performances, interviews, etc during his time. I just don't know where to post. Can someone help — I don't know which section to put the topic or even create the topic so I can publish?

 

If you like this one I opened for you mate then feel free to go ahead and start posting (otherwise it can be deleted and a more satisfactory attempt done by somebody if necessary - I guess you could do it yourself the same way as I did if you wanted, which was to go to the Players & Legends section and scroll down towards the bottom of the main page and click the Post New Thread button, highlighted in green).
Review: - Gyorgy Orth: Historic Tribute Thread | BigSoccer Forum

 

Yeah. When I posted this:

I was drunk to the ultiimate level. However, promise is promise, especially since PDG created the thread, I am gonna be posting his whole career soon — descending from 08.09.1925 to his very early days.

I am preparing ARFHS's articles, which some are still not available, to post here. Since I said I will do it; I will do it. I am preparing a massive amount of threads.