Don't know if you're really a POW if you're killed on the spot, but the executions are now confirmed. From CNN: Top U.S. official: Iraq has executed some POWs Gen. Peter Pace, Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, confirms that soldiers were executed as they were surrendering with their hands up Sunday. And when discussing other atrocities, the following was mentioned: I don't even know what to say about this, it just really aggravates and frustrates me so much.
Sadly, as I just mentioned on another thread, these guys have proven to be such liars by this point that I can't believe this until I see it coming from sources other than U.S. generals.
Saddam or Aziz will tell you the truth .... Who do you believe .... Vince Brooks or Tariq Aziz? better yet - do you believe the embedded reporters or Al Jazeera?
The first casualty of war is the truth Doc's point is "How do you choose which of two proven liars to believe?". I know this can be difficult to grasp, but just because one side lies doesn't mean the other side isn't also lying. This is yet another instance where the Bush team's decisions to lie in the past are now causing reasonable people to doubt what they say until independent confirmation is available. Don't blame the skeptics for this. Blame the people in the Bush administration who decided to cry wolf.
Re: The first casualty of war is the truth So BG Vince Brooks is a liar? I know this may be a difficult concept for you to grasp Joe - but war is not an easy state of affairs and desparate regimes will resort to desparate measures. Given that the regime is on its way out and there is no place for them to go - do you honestly believe anything they have to say? Given that Bush and Rumsfeld and Franks and Brooks are responsible and accountable to the American people (and which the press will hold them to what they say) - a government/country which will survive this war - who do you seriously believe? (I know the answer already but just want others to know where you stand). Because now you and Doc have subscribed to the point that the Generals are all lying - just like you believe the entire administration is lying. Geez - the entire US military are a bunch of liars ....
Re: Re: The first casualty of war is the truth I don't know and neither do you. I'm sorry that I have offended your desire to believe that America is an unblemished white hat good guy incapable of immorality, but that's just not a realistic view of the universe. I'm beginning to detect whiffs of desperation from the White House. Also, please go back and re-read my last post. Aw, hell, I'll quote you the relevant bit: "...just because one side lies doesn't mean the other side isn't also lying." Yeah, we can pretty much assume that Saddam's newsboys are spinning like CATO Institute researcher. This still, however, does not necessarily mean that ipso facto our media isn't also spinning. Like I said, I know this can be a difficult point to grasp, especially for people who live in a black-and white world with no room for shades of gray, but if you don't understand it then you have no realistic basis for judging any political situation. Please also notice that I'm not asserting categorically that the report isn't true. It might well be true. All I'm saying is that I'm suspending final judgement until this is confirmed by a credible independent source, just like I would do with anything almost anyone says about this war. That reasonable people now take whatever Bush and the mainstream American media say with a grain of salt is the price Bush pays for crying wolf in the past and the Amercian media (particularly Fox) pays for not calling Bush on his previous aforementioned wolf-crying.
Re: Re: Re: The first casualty of war is the truth Yes I do - I know Vince and he is a damn good man. You are a liar far beyond Vince's capability to think about one. I will put it this way Joe - Saddam is going to be killed and he and his top leadership are going to say and do anything to stay alive. I dare say - Bush's motivations are far more moral.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The first casualty of war is the truth You sir, are no Vince Brooks. Well, I suppose I shouldn't let you completely dodge the argument and try to distract us from it by dealing in cheap general rhetoric that does not address the point. Luckily for you, I think I've made my case and explained the reasons for my suspension of final belief in what either side says to the satisfaction of a reasonable person and see no more reason to waste more time if you're not going to address the point.
If the US were under attack would you show the enemy mercy? I wouldn't show mercy if someone was in my country, especially a force superior to our own. Kill all you can when you get the chance. Nothing to do with good guy/bad guy. It's 'the dark side'.
"No Quarter" is not only a rockin Zeppelin tune, it is also not allowed under the Geneva Conventions of 1949. However, it should be expected that Saddam wouldn't play by the rules. We didn't when we invaded. http://www.amnestyusa.org/icc/factsheet_5.pdf If you read down a bit, you'll see that Saddam's boys have broken a lot of rules.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/iraq03262003.html I don't think "No Quarter" and bombing tv and radio stations are comparable.
Back in 1991, some of the capturned airmen reported that the Iraqi footsoldiers tried to kill them as soon as they were captured. The Iraqi officers had to beat back the footsoldiers to save them. The officers knew that the airmen were more valuable alive than dead. Bush Sr and the Coalition was not going to topple him. The POW was his bargaining chips. But this was 1991.... Iraq does not need alive POW this time around.... George W. Bush wants his head. he won't be bargaining with the US at the end of the war. The 5 alive on TV was all he needed for propaganda. And if you read about what happened to Iranian POWs during the Iran-Iraq War, you would learn the executed American POWs got the easy way out. Amen.
An AP story of interest on the matter of executed POWS. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030327/pl_afp/iraq_war_us_prisoners_1