Postgame: Canada friendly 9/7

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by eagercolin, Sep 7, 2024.

  1. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    #176 grandinquisitor28, Sep 8, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2024
    '
    I disagree completely with the bolded. Honestly I don't even think that makes sense. If the US best XI is better than Canada's w/the exception of two players, how is Canada's best XI better? Doesn't make a lot of sense, especially in a sport like this where any faulty link in a chain is a problem.

    I would agree w/the argument that Canada's playing better right now, far better, but lets be straight, Canada's GREAT run basically is June to now, and encompasses wins over noone of quality other than I suppose us? Literally just a few months ago they were bounced by Jamaica, like we were nearly bounced by Jamaica. I think Marsch has straightened them out since a post WC swoon hit them in '23.

    The big issue is trying to figure out why both Canada and the US turned to complete --- following their NL Final meeting in the summer of '23. Canada was horrible over the next 9 months, while the US has been total garbage nonstop since they beat Canada 2-0 15 months ago.

    It appears that Marsch staunched the bleeding and got them right. Meanwhile the US is still spinning into the ground, and blowing apart on the desert floor more or less over the past 13 months. They've literally failed to manage a single window since June '23 w/consistency. Not one window has been good consistently. Fall '23 included the step on a rake games against the Uzbek's and later Germany. Early winter '23 involved the home and home horror show against T&T. March '24 had the ---- their pants stupidity of a loss to Jamaica that was turned into a win by kindly injury time, which allowed for another 2-0 beat down of El Tri (which was less impressive than any of the previous matches in '23, and '22, and late '21), and we all know what happened in June. Blown off the field by Colombia, a rebound against Brazil, terrible finishing against Boliva, and then a house of horrors back to back pair of gutless performances against Panama and Uruguay.

    We're left trying to figure out if fall '23 to fall '24 is who we are, or if we are simply playing like total crap and better than this, and w/some health, and the right coaching, this can be set right? I go with the latter because I simply refuse to believe that the kind of talent we can roll out for an 11, and for a 23/26 is this ---. Eventually you probably are the scoreboard or xG or whatever, and if they can't turn this around with Poch, we'll know that's true, but the reality is, Canada's already proven their post WC swoon was illusory with a new coach, and there's no reason we can't do the same, we just aren't right now. Will we? That's what I find myself wondering. I'm not surprised we lost. No Dest and Weah destroys the previous design of the attack on the right, no Adams has really harmed the design of CM, the Ream fall off and Richards completely unable to play competently as a CB....., no Jedi who was one of the 2 or 3 most important attackers the last 3 years? All of that adds up. No McKennie is also a problem, although Bad Mckennie, which is what we got in June, isn't gonna help anyway....Hopefully Poch will introduce the ability to play a lot of different approaches stylistically because one of the problems is SO SO SO much of this team has depended very specifically upon certain players being present:

    Jedi at LB,Dest at RB, and Weah at RWF to make the attack set up function. Adams at the 6 and McKennie at the 8 to make the D function, Reyna at the 10 to make the attack function. Pull out ANY pieces of that set up and an accordian style collapse happens. Weah/Reyna is what makes the right side function, you lack either of them and the attacking flow is disrupted, same with Jedi/Pulisic on the left. Adams allows for errors to be cleaned up both centrally and on the wings, McKennie pulls strings with his long passing, Reyna is responsbile for the passes that lead to almost all the xG that comes from through balls the team is ever able to generate. Each piece you peel off disappears a clear function of the whole. The fact that we were missing all of them? Its why we need Poch to build different approaches to attacking opponents. Guys like LVG, and Marsch AND HUGO PEREZ should not need all of 5 seconds to figure out how to rip apart this system, but they do, it's been easy as pie for any team halfway talented to break what we do, and in El Salvador's case, they managed to break our attack to pieces in every single match we played against one another in '21, '22 and '23 (4 of them). Hopefully Poch can rip up all of this and figure out how to build set ups that aren't so thoroughly determined by the specific presence of a Dest here, or a Jedi there, or a Weah there, or a Reyna there. We need to figure out how to bring out of Tillman, what PSV and Rangers could, but neither Berhalter nor Varas could as an example.
     
  2. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very good post.... I don't necessarily agree w/ the negativity towards Tillman though. He has been meh to awful in limited minutes for the USMNT but I thought he was the only solid threat on O in the first half yesterday. Those flashes of skill, technique and creativity are really needed in our MF... Johnny and Musah should have been able to handle the balance on D as double pivots IMO. Now... if Tillman was asked to play as a straight 8 w/ no plan to press/cheat forward then I guess he could have done better. But having him play the straight 8 position for our team in our boring/predictable 4-3-3 is going to minimize his positive traits and highlight his deficiencies as a defending player. IMO, Tillman might have the highest ceiling of any player on this roster but he needs to play a position that allows him to create and his responsibilities on D should really focus on what he does well... E.g. pressing defenders in their own half and stealing/tackling from behind/the side.

    On a related note... I (We) have been complaining for a while that the GB 4-3-3 formation is terribly predictable. GB doubled down after his first tenure to make sure that said formation was used down in the USYNTs as well. Basically killing our talent at the 10 position from top to bottom but also making is so simple for any team, at any level, to prepare for a US team. Just watch tape from one level and you know what they will do at any. Just so stupid. Jesse made a point of letting us know that he knew exactly how we would play and yet again... no adjustments were made... other than what I contend: that Varas (GB) gave Tillman (Gio) the freedom to play a bit more of a 8/10 hybrid position. So in the end, I do agree that Varas should be looking to field a starting 11 against NZ made up of players that are giving 100%... but for ****'s sake, create a game plan that is specific to the opponent and that takes advantage of the strengths of our roster.
     
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  3. S.J. Jim

    S.J. Jim Member+

    Jun 11, 2006
    S.J.
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Props for pointing this out. This is the kind of attention to detail that we need more of in these postgame threads. In fact, we need more discussion of the actual game (specifics) in these threads, instead of having so many posts about the big picture (the player pool, our best midfield, what the next coach might do, etc etc). Not that those other topics aren't important, but there are dedicated threads for those. In postgame threads, I'd rather read more about what people thought about the game we just watched, what went wrong (specifically), and what went right. JMO.
     
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  4. twoolley

    twoolley Member+

    Jan 3, 2008
    Whats your take on the game
     
  5. glutton4Bolts

    glutton4Bolts Member+

    United States
    Mar 18, 2019
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I did qualify that statement. We are missing our best FBs and the drop off in talent/pace from Dest/Jedi to Scally/Lund is substantial... although Lund did well. I also didn't mean that their best 11 would be that much better than ours that it would mean they would win most of the time. Like I said, the difference in depth is pretty staggering. Without Davies or Bombito they become a very beatable team because they can't just throw numbers forward w/o worrying about counters. In short, Canada have two unbelievably dynamic defenders that allow them to play a very effective brand of soccer and when you pair it with what appears to be a roster filled with players that bring 100% intensity I think I would give their best 11 an advantage over ours. But having a coach that can bring the intensity/belief/consistency to our group could make this a moot point in the near future. I still feel like we are a bit of a sleeping giant. I mean, despite one of the worst halves in recent memory from a USMNT, we only lost 2-1 and both goals were self-inflicted wounds. Their coach (and the whole world for that matter) know exactly how we are going to play. Imagine what it would be like if our players had a malleable game plan that took advantage of their strengths and the weaknesses of their opponents? Maybe what I see as a slightly inferior starting 11 turns into a monster?
     
  6. S.J. Jim

    S.J. Jim Member+

    Jun 11, 2006
    S.J.
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In general, I think it's been analyzed pretty well here, and even starting with the televised postgame show where Beas, Dunseth and Martino talked about our lack of energy, urgency, effort, etc. I was disgusted by the first half performance in general. Varas' comment at the half... "I think we were too static"... just made me laugh. Gee, ya think so? As coach, how about DOING something about that DURING the first half!

    Too casual, too sloppy, dig a hole, realize you need to start fighting, and you realize it too late. Beasley said as much. Somebody said that we put out more effort in the second half, and Beas goes "Yeah, but not at the beginning of the second half... more like the 60th minute" (or something like that). I didn't really notice it until later than that, when Morris and DLT were in the midfield.

    In terms of the starters, I thought Pulisic was pretty good, Lund was decent, Schulte was mostly fine, Tillman was mostly good, and that's about it. Cardoso was poor, Ream had a nightmare game, Scalley was so-so, Aaronson's only contribution was to successfully cut inside and switch play a couple of times, Musah was very disappointing, and the same for Balogun. FB often seems to be a step behind in terms of anticipating where he needs to be (often late in getting to crosses), doesn't hold the ball up very well, doesn't choose passes all that well, and I hated the way he ruined his angle by taking a touch toward the end line as he was in on goal. Most of the subs were an improvement, but too little too late. Our goal was nothing to write home about, and may have been offside to boot.

    Anyway, I've already posted several times about some specifics that bothered me from a particular player. Perhaps because no one else seems to have really noticed him as a problem (maybe understandably, due to the terrible performances of Cardoso and Ream), I made several specific criticisms of one player who scares the hell out of me in our back line: Chris Richards. I did not like his performances in the pre-Copa matches, or in the Copa matches, and I still don't like what I'm seeing. In this game, he demonstrated poor instincts and positioning (almost gave up a goal in the 4th minute after failing to track a runner by drifting in the wrong direction- toward Ream's mark); while under NO pressure, gave the ball away in our end at least twice (had to make the "my bad" hand gesture, which is never a good sign); and nearly put the ball into our own net when trying to pass back to Schulte. THIS is one of our best CB's? Dear god. If so, I think we may be in serious trouble.
     
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  7. S.J. Jim

    S.J. Jim Member+

    Jun 11, 2006
    S.J.
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good post, and I agree with just about all of it. But... I'm surprised that you (or anyone) would suggest that "we can play out of the back". Can we? Consistently? Against strong opponents? I'm just not seeing that most of the time, and this latest sample of our ability to do so gives me very little to no confidence. As I've said here already, even without the glaring giveaways by Ream and Cardoso (granted, not a regular starter), we saw Richards spraying the ball all over the place- even when under NO pressure (giveaways, loose passes missing their target, and even a near own goal- from distance!). Naturally, we would have likely looked far better with our more experienced midfielders in there, but it still begins with the back line. And our back line really worries me.
     
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  8. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The weirdest thing is people acting like two things can’t be true at the same time. How do you all handle life?

    Berhalter was a problem and our player pool is a problem.

    It’s not one or the other.

    The level of discourse here is pretty poor and just weak attempts at saying my side was right.
     
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  9. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When railwayman Jim Stringer is assigned to drive holidaymakers to the seaside resort of Blackpool in the hot summer of 1905, he thinks he's struck lucky. But his dreams of beer and pretty women soon fall away - when his high-speed train meets a huge millstone on the line. In the months that follow as he hunts for the saboteur, Jim is drawn into a beguiling but dangerous world of eccentrics, conmen and cowards. From ventriloquists to funfair salesmen, ticket clerks to dandies, everyone is a suspect in this captivating adventure.

    I gotta say this sounds roughly 10 times more interesting than the match I just watched.
     
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  10. TrueNorth

    TrueNorth New Member

    Arsenal
    Canada
    Feb 1, 2022
    Canadian here.
    The US Men are over rated. A lot of the better players simply aren’t playing enough quality minutes for their club teams. Watching your team also it’s evident there’s a lot of negative (disinterested???) body language. Look at the tackles data and it’s clear the US is soft. This is not a golden generation for the US. It’s an over hyped and inevitably will be viewed as a potential wasted generation. We could have been easily up 3,4, at half. We made some subs, you made some subs and game levelled.
    Our starting 11 is better than US starting 11. Depth the US has over Canada.

    Last night Eustaquio and Choinere bossed your MF. Bombito owned Balogun and CP.

    WCQ last cycle - drew US in US. Won in Canada. Winning CONCACAF was no fluke.
    Herdman accomplished ONE thing - got guys to feel like a brotherhood and they play for each other and country. Easy to see. Now, Marsch is sharpening the knife, tactical improvements.

    I look at the US and man, these guys just don’t have each other’s back. It’s a bad culture. You’re mistaken if you think Poch is somehow going to change things significantly. The culture of the team is bad. That’s One of Canada’s strengths. They’d die for each other.
     
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  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    It's in large part because simply "going to Europe" was never a recipe for mental toughness. Mental toughness is often built through failure and persistence. Being told you were amazing, then being recruited by the top clubs or sold for $20M, then getting paid big money, and then when you aren't starting or dominating, being told by anyone and everyone it's the club's fault and forcing a move and complaining about PT rather than improving ... where does mental toughness come in there?

    Furthermore, and probably more relevant, I think it is developed / shows up far earlier in life. All out guys with the dog in them showed that dog before they got to Europe. Pulisic, Adams, Morris, Sargent, etc. Pulisic was single minded at like age 4. Adams talks about his step dad guiding him at like 12.

    I think developing that in your 20s is far less common than people think.

    And if you are going to make an argument about this generation and the mental aspect ... they are the most hyped generation in the full on social media age. It's clear to me that many of them drink the same kool-aid the USMNT fanbase does. The baffling thing is that they continue to do so after being shut down by a Salvadoran left back over one on one.

    It's not the overconfidence and entitlement that baffles me. It's that it keeps happening over and over and over.
     
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  12. Reccossu

    Reccossu Member+

    Jan 31, 2005
    Birmingham
    Thanks!! Glad you could splain it for us.
     
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  13. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #188 EruditeHobo, Sep 8, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2024
    The poster is wrong, unfortunately.

    Johnny, who is not even under pressure, tried to sidefoot one-time the ball inside-out into space. It's just an idiotic play. It was not struck too hard, and is not a mistake by Ream... he did exactly what he did multiple other times in the match, ping the ball through the press in order to give CM a chance to make a smart, not-too-difficult play to put it to a teammate into space.

    If Johnny just traps and passes this ball, which honestly and said with absolutely zero sarcasm is something my nephew could do easily, they're well on their way to another solid press-break. Instead, for some reason he has no idea how much time he has, he tries to over-complicate things, and he completely ********s it up.

    Ream makes more that a couple other passing/possession mistakes during the match... but this is definitely not one of them.
     
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  14. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #189 thedukeofsoccer, Sep 8, 2024
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2024
    "Canadian here", & proceeds to troll. That qualifier is usually reserved for coming in peace & telling people it's not as bad as it feels now. So that was a doubly douchebag post.

    You got 0 points at the WC, when it mattered the most. The US advanced from their group, like they have every time in the modern era on neutral fields (outside Europe & NA). They've won every regional tourney the last several years. There's not a trophy for WCQ'ing.

    2nd cycle managers for the US always suck. We fire them, then turn things around almost immediately.

    Enjoy it while it lasts. It's going to be fleeting. Then I hope when we go back to little brothering you (cuz you're a watered down version of the US), that our fans are classier and more reasonable than going to your forum and saying equally as ridiculous things, like Canada will never beat the US again since they had comparative success for a couple months.
     
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  15. Winoman

    Winoman Drinkin' Wine Spo-De-O-De!

    Jul 26, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Canucksplaining, or perhaps Hosersplaining...
     
  16. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Musah might be the most disappointing player in the top 10 of our pool given his previous trajectory.

    He's got what, 40 caps, a WC, numerous tournaments under his belt and can be entirely passive and complacent. He's the vet in that midfield. Yet no real presence. He hasn't developed any x factor component to his game.

    On one hand the players played like they didn't want to be there under a likely single window interim coach. Whatever. But when Puli started getting hacked down hard by the same team which broke Gio's leg, and the midfield who needs to set the tone had zero reaction- came off as pathetic. Whether you view the game as largely a waste given the transition/interim scenario you still stand up for your boys.
     
  17. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    'Nucksplaining.
     
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  18. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    One, I really like a lot of what Tillman brings. He's a very talented offensive player and he was my pick to start at 10 with Reyna out. Gotta give him the chance because his upside is substantial. He also fits Poch's offense well.

    But I think you've got the rest backwards. Tillman wasn't bad because he was limited in our "boring/predictable" 433 ... the offense gets stagnant and the build up gets difficult because the midfielders make zero effort to get open.

    Now, perhaps that's the plan. Stand here. Don't move. I doubt it. It seems far more likely to me that guys like Tillman who historically get lazy off the ball are doing the same here. Reyna has that rep on defense, but watch him play on offense. He's not great at it, but he actively moves to find open spots.

    It wasn't JUST Tillman. Musah doesn't move much off ball, and Johnny seems to want pressure so he can fight for it. It was a very stagnant midfield until Morris came in and suddenly it looked very different. Because he moves off ball.

    Defensively, watch Canada. It's not a great press, but you know why it works? Everyone defends. You can't have a good defense and say "oh, Tillman's a CAM, the double pivot will handle it." That's defensive strategy from like 1988, and it doesn't work anymore. Leo Messi gets to take plays off. NO ONE on our team should.

    Christian works. Everyone else needs to work to his standard.

    There is nothing fundamentally predictable about a 433. There are a million and one ways to run it, and a million and one ways to build up out of it.

    We used to mix it up much more. We have gotten more predictable. But the things that Jesse was picking on wasn't the formation so much as it was the build up patterns, and frankly again, that lack of dynamism in the midfield.

    The way to punish a press is break the first line and go up the gut. But if your midfielders aren't active ... your centerbacks have no one to pass to. And Jesse benefitted from the lack of Dest, Reyna and Wes, who very much transform that build up and midfield situation.

    A 433 is actually fairly well suited to our roster. A 4231 as well.

    The bigger issue I have with the tactics is that our build up was stale. If Varas did come out with the same basic patterns of build up, with little variation and no plan B, then yeah, that's on the coach. That may be true. But also, the players weren't moving. None of them had any ideas whatsoever. This isn't Americans football; it's soccer. You've got to make your own decisions.

    But we have a lot of guys who don't do much unless they are dribbling.

    If you are facing a Jesse Marsch team, then design a build out to punish a press. This was not that. Which is ironic because one of Berhalter's better wins with Columbus was absolutely destroying a Red Bull team (I think Marsch had left at midseason but it was his system) by breaking the press over and over.

    I didn't see any creativity here. And players like Tillman and Scally hurt that. But then they shouldn't play.
     
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  19. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The US should have already moved on from Ream like a full year ago, he wasn't the same last season as he was in the runup to the World Cup. Also he's turning 37 in a month. He would essentially be 39 at the 2026 World Cup... zero shot he makes the roster. Even if he's better than Jalen Neal or Noahkai Banks now, might as well call up those other guys and take a look at them, because they have a much higher chance of being relevant in the summer of 2026.
     
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  20. EruditeHobo

    EruditeHobo Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I liked some of what Tillman did. He's showing flashes of what I'd wish (or had previously hoped) to see from Musah.

    However I still don't think of him as an actual CM. He's an attacker when it really comes down to it. If he gets more settled and comfortable think he'll be a valuable option in the future.
     
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  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Mikey with some parting shots as he heads out the door:

     
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  22. TrueNorth

    TrueNorth New Member

    Arsenal
    Canada
    Feb 1, 2022
     
  23. BMWDeuce

    BMWDeuce Member

    AC Milan
    United States
    Aug 15, 2024
    Was gonna post this and he's not wrong.

    The big thing coming out is how much GGG really shielded the players from criticism. Like aside from him going at Haji after the El Salvador game, Gregg wouldn't really question players or call them out. Now there's a place and a time to do it publicly but it does feel like the program got to the point where there just wasn't accountability
     
  24. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd consider him at the CF position (maybe cut-in WF) because he physical tools, striking ability, & scoring instincts. He does have a history there, before playing CM.

    But from his lack of consistent defensive effort, to off ball movement (he's a very stop-start guy in general), to questionable decision-making on the ball; we're just playing him there out of a lack of imagination.

    Both he and Brenden were miscast yesterday. Brenden should be the CAM w/ work-rate & Tillman attacker with gifts closer to goal. We also may have had a target on the wing to play a longer ball too, instead of an inept FB further back who's just going to back pass. This is the 3rd-4th time CP & BA were played at wing v. Canada, and it's worked 0 times. The one time we played Brenden in the middle, CP on the wing, we won 2-0.
     
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  25. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You don't have to go that far. That's how you alienate the squad.

    It can be kept in house and you can light up individuals behind closed doors. If you want to do it publicly, it can be directed at the team in general.

    How you best incentivize more intense play is benching their ass when they don't bring it. And I don't know if this is the best environment to right that past wrong. They don't lose much, unlike in Copa America.

    I think the next times it could have an effect is for marquee friendlies & the ones leading up to the WC where they fear their dreams will be dashed. It may or may not work at GC. You can bring a few just to sit them for players w/ less pedigree. But maybe de-emphasize players who aren't always going to care. Not a problem for Adams, Pulisic, or Zimmerman.
     

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