Post-match: Post Mortem 2021 Olympic team

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by EXALIFTIN, Mar 28, 2021.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Okay. The original post (not yours) was simply a "result."

    The challenge is that the US gets a meaningful game against a Top 20 team about once a year.
     
  2. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    We've beaten teams in the Top 20 in meaningful games less than five times in our soccer history. Ecuador was one of such times. Ghana was not a Top 20 when they lost to us in Brazil.
     
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  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The US doesn't have many opportunities against good teams. We did just have a match against Holland cancelled (as well as matches against Serbia and Australia). The best stretch of wins in friendlies was of course during Klinsmann's tenure in 2015. We beat Mexico, Germany, and Holland in a row. I think the Holland game was the last match we won against Euro opposition on Euro soil until the win against Northern Ireland recently. (I think i remember a commentator saying that)

    The biggest such game that actually mattered, of course, was beating the #1 team in the world at the Confederations Cup. Spain.
    Also beat Germany in a Confederations Cup, of course. [When we beat Spain, we were the Unofficial World Champion. :) There's a website that tracks the World Champion as if its a boxing match. So when you beat the #1 team, you grab the belt. They even have a twitter feed! There's a website that's tracked the 148 years of winners.]

    Of course, the USMNT for much of the history of FIFA rankings has been top 25. Average FIFA position for the US since 1992 is #21. We're basically there right now. We're #22, and with some wins at the Gold Cup will probably move into top 20.

    Our lowest ranking from 2002 to the 2006 WC was #11.

    So its other teams that view US as a win against a top 20 team.

    I think what people inherently know is that most of the USMNT games that matter are against CONCACAF opposition. Nothing we can do about that. And with the Nations League schedules, that's even magnified. And we should absolutely clean up against those nations. Not win every single game. This is sports. The Olympic loss wasn't painful because we lost. Sports teams lose games. I don't care what sport it is. The best baseball teams lose ~60 times. The manner of the loss and the quality of the performance (or lack thereof) was what hurt. We have the domestic talent to have done better. I realize we have a built in excuse of missing all of our top players. I get it. That's real. But we still have enough talent in MLS to have done better. The coach got his squad selection and tactics wrong. If you play really well, and lose.................we can accept that. That isn't what happened here in this Olympic qualifying tournament.
     
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  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    That's the theory. In theory, a ssRNA+ virus should never be able to integrate itself into our genome. But it may be happening, to the surprise of everybody in the science community. Let's hope not. Because if it is, and we're all getting mRNA vaccines... ouch.

    Anyway, that's the theory. I'm old, I've learned (the hard way) that things that work in theory seldom, if ever, work in practice.

    Factors that can affect what happens, from easier to understand to hardest:

    1. Availability. We get two or three key guys injured, just when everything was planned around them, and it's curtains.

    2. Conditions. One thing is playing on pretty fields with nice locker rooms. Another, in a goat pasture with locker rooms where the toilets won't flush. And when it's humid, hot, and everybody at the airport already looked at you as if you had just killed their mom.

    3. Hype. Yes, USA is a deeply capitalist society and anyone who grows in one such society knows two things: socialism is of the Devil, and money equals quality. So you buy the most expensive TV because it has to be the best, right? But that's not always true. Sometimes the obscure soccer player who plays soccer in some little club in some Costa Rican fishing town may be a lot better than you think. Even if he barely makes enough to feed his family. Somehow he slipped through the cracks and never made it to Europe and the nice, green fields. But, by golly, you don't want to meet him on one of his good days.

    4. Time. The world is not in a static state, but in continuous flux. In short, the 19 year old kid facing us in San Pedro Sula may become a better footballer than any of our guys in a few years, while our hot 22 year old prospect is on his way down to oblivion already, even if we haven't noticed it yet. A ranking, or a price, reflects how the world was yesterday, not how it is today --and much less how it will be tomorrow.
     
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  5. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wins against sut 40 ranked teams aren't really "decent results" I'm sure the U-17s could beat my pub side too.


    Glad to be able to educate you since you don't seem to realize that organization matters. Crappy couching can render a good team toothless.

    Oh, yeah, the failure in this round in olympic qualifying is the only one since all the other failures to qualify for the olympics and World Cup are still moral victories mumble mumble....
     
  6. Guinho

    Guinho Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes, bless their hearts
    Estonia
    May 27, 2001
    San Francisco, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, it was "decent result."
     
  7. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    None of the 5 ccl clubs had a player on this roster. Which makes you wonder if they weren't releasing players, and outside Atlanta who already earned a rep, the USSF were just covering their asses.
     
  8. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Matt Freese.....................................but he's a backup keeper that Philly can do without.

    Comments after the fact out of POrtland sure suggested that they were surprised/unhappy that Ebobisse wasn't picked. So I don't think so. Williamson of Portland has admitted that he had a poor camp.
     
  9. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #284 thedukeofsoccer, Apr 6, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
    Public spin from the orgs, diplomacy via E-Will. Managers shouldn't be making their decisions from offseason training for guys who had recent injuries anyway.
     
  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    A result, quite literally, in soccer means a win or a tie. A tie against Mexico in a competitive match in the Azteca is at least decent.

    As for the rest, yes, coaching and the such matter.

    But a comparison of the Olympic team to the senior team makes little sense at this point because the talent disparity matters more.
     
  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    And a tie against Mexico in the Azteca is not decent? In what world?
     
  12. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think Atlanta was the only one or they would have let us know different. One DM to Twellman by Boca and the news gets out.

    NYCFC players were not included or discarded long ago. So, I doubt they were held back. Portland was willing to release. Philly only had one player, they released him. Nobody on Columbus was wanted.

    Kreis/Berhalter seemed to limit themselves to a very narrow player pool. We really don't know why or how limited they made it. Did they just not care, is that why they didn't get Konrad or Booth or Mendez. They didn't seem to want to bring many of the U20 type players at all. Harper was in MLS, not even considered. Bassett was discarded. Who even knows about Ritaccio or Vassilev? Roberts was available I would think. Did they try to get Kelman, Gomez, Hawkins? They brought U20s to Guadalajara, but these guys who are 21ish seemed to not even be considered.

    We won the last two U20 CONCACAF championships. The U23 team should be made up of those cycles but with the postponement, many of those players went to Europe. So, wouldn't it make sense to fill in with the U20 cycle that was next, whose tournament was cancelled?

    Of course, USSF hasn't had a U20 camp in an eternity, so maybe they forgot these players existed?

    It was very strange that they ended up with such an unbalanced and ineffective roster. Yes, filled with Berhalter favorites. Maybe Berhalter just overrated guys like Lewis, Djorde, Yueill, Araujo, Vines. It is the kind of player he seems to think is better. I don't think Kreis had much say in the roster and said as much.
     
  13. Brotheryoungbuck

    Jan 24, 2015
    parts unknown
    Miles Robinson was very good last night. I hadn’t realized how much better on the ball he had gotten. He was dribbling out of pressure and making progressive passes. I don’t think I have a clear hierarchy of the CB position, but I think there’s a decent chance Miles Robinson will be with the MNT at Qatar and play in Europe.
     
  14. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    at the very least he demonstrated why he wouldve walked into the xi for this batch of u23s
     
  15. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Best player on the field last night. I see no reason he couldn't play in Europe right now, except that Atlanta seems to not like selling except for exorbitant fees.
     
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  16. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It would have been an even better game if he'd finished that header in the first half.

    I'm not sure Atlanta has been in a position to sell with many of their players other than Almiron.
    Josef Martinez, but he made his willingness to stay at Atlanta clear. He called Atlanta "his Barcelona."

    I'm glad all three of the guys held back from the Olympics started that match.
    There are some positive first signs from Heinze with regards to young players.
    The willingness to bring on George Campbell in that setting said something to me.

    To be honest, I don't think having Robinson on the Olympic qualifying team would have moved that needle. Its in the midfield where I thought a different group of selections could have made a difference.
     
  17. Tactical Hipster

    Dec 23, 2014
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that Atlanta probably would ask too much to sell Robinson, but I'm surprised we haven't heard any rumblings of European clubs sniffing around. I think he needs to be like Aaron Long and get more USMNT caps before Euro teams really notice him.

    I'm glad Campbell got some minutes, but Alan Franco is coming in supposedly, so I doubt Campbell gets many minutes this year. I would love to be wrong though.
     
  18. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's been smooth on the ball for a while. It showed up last year to those who paid some attention to him, and was backed up by the metrics. He became a more well-rounded cb, even if he may not have been as consistent defensively. But Atlanta was giving him nothing to get motivated by. He's been a man who rises to the occasion, like in CCL.

    It's good to see more people are coming around to my perspective. I think he should be a serious candidate to start next to Brooks, until Richards actually develops mentally & physically. Miles is a much tougher & more trustworthy individual right now. He's also faster & more aware.

    But I expect Gregg to put him more on the B-team track thru the GC, with a chance to get redirected onto the A in time for qualifying. Inshallah.
     
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  19. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Robinson had a bit of rough year last year under de Boer. He has improved his dribbling and even his passing, but he had quite a few more defensive breakdowns and could be characterized as inconsistent.

    I think he'll be far better under Heinze but he's older than most MLS youngsters, so if he wants to move, it should be reasonably soon. His skills are still a bit behind his physical assets and with his age now 23-24, I do wonder what the interest will be.
     
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  20. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By rough year, you mean just not great like his first season, but didn't have a lot to play for because Atlanta were in a transition year, and he actually became fantastic on the ball between the dribbling, & short + mid-range passing.

    I wonder what the interest will be. But that's not reflective of him not being an excellent cb who rises to the level of his competition. He kind of dragged his feet going thru the college system for a couple years. Then Atlanta slow-played him as well, since they view themselves as a big club. Plus they've contributed to limiting his int'l showcases.

    A good nat'l team manager gives him shots to audition for the spot next to Brooks and savvy UK club from lower to mid tier EPL to upper Championship offers Atlanta 5m+ for his services. Whether they'd even sell for that is a question, given what NYRB turned down for Long, for example. Turner is in a similar situation with NE where his value to them may exceed what they could receive in return, in their eyes. But ultimately they should do right by players.
     
  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Yep. But he's past the "we'll coach him up" phase of player acquisiton, where Miazga, McKenzie, etc., left MLS for clubs. Rightly or wrongly, he's already 24, which means we are beginning the enter the phase of "he is what he is" to most scouts and teams.

    I think Robinson has a bit more upside than most 24 year olds because of his slow development, but a team like Genk is banking on the 2 years difference between McKenzie and Robinson to create value.

    So having a mediocre year in MLS as a 23 year old -- now 24 -- isn't Aaron Long space, but it is in that sort of "you're at an age where you better be Best XI" to really get a significant offer as a CB out of MLS.

    Whereas McKenzie with a Best XI year at 21 ... they were smart to sell. A bad year for Mark -- even a bit of inconsistency could have dropped his value to basically not worth selling. And a great year doesn't increase his value that much because CB.

    So Robinson needs to crush this year. Best CB in MLS / Defender of the Year type conversation. He can do it, and if Atlanta goes far in CCL, that will be a huge boon.

    I'm there on the dribbling, not quite there on the passing.
     
  22. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Atlanta will get revenge against Club America and at least get to the final of CCL. Miles Robinson will be one of the main reasons.

    He has a lot more to play for this year. Atlanta has a superior coach and supporting cast. They should go back to being contenders in MLS.

    As far as the passing, outside of long range, it's already there for Robinson. He hit line-splitting passes during last season and last night. For the previous campaign, it's backed up by the metrics:

    Passes attempted per 90: top 11%
    Pass completion %: top 15%
    Progressive passes: top 13%
    Progressive carries: top 13%
    Dribbles completed: top 21%
    Progressive passes rec.: top 11%

    He will put that together with elite defense to be the best cb in the league. Then it's up to other orgs to recognize.
     
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  23. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Well, you've sold me. Of course, I'd like it to be true. :)
     
  24. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1382154424496324608 is not a valid tweet id
     
  25. Thundering165

    Thundering165 Member+

    North Carolina FC
    United States
    May 1, 2017
    Raleigh
    Williamson was one of the better midfielders in ball progression in MLS last season. This was public knowledge. Compare who was available with who was brought:

    [​IMG]

    This is number of passes/carries for each progressive pass/carry.

    Lack of players who can create space to turn and move upfield was an obvious issue start to finish. Dotson and Tessmann actually looked ok in the tournament but this was not their comfort zone
     
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