Post game comments: Brazil -Argentina sept 3rd (r)

vipnerd · Sep 4, 2006

I know most of you guys will jump on me, but this is what I see.

Messi ... is more of a media balloon than anything else. He IS NOT a playmaker ... he doesn't make others play, he plays alone. His best position is where Rijkaard places him, on the right. To open the field, to use his speed and spead the defense ... to cut inside to his best foot if necessary. When Messi places himself around the box, it is dribble, dribble, dribble until the ball is lost. 1 in 100 he will dribble thru DMs and CBs. He lacks the field vision to use his dribbling skills in a more productive team effort.

Tevez ... the guy has balls, heart and is strong. But his touch for 1-2s with Messi lacked the "sensibility" in his feet. He is more "flinstone". He is useful to open up defenses on 1-1 efforts ... by using his ball control (limited compared to both Messi and Kun) and facing the defender with strength.

Kun ... he is very young still, yet he has all the attributes to make him a real "different" kind of player. His first touch is perfect, his efficiency in front of goal is impecable (forget about the attempt yesterday - there was a lot of pressure on his young shoulders in his debut). Can Kun play an Eto'o role along Messi? Yes he can ... Eto'o is not a great header, he is fast an intelligent to place himself in position to receive the ball once Messi has unbalanced the opponent. Kun has a great finish ...

Is Riquelme comparable to Dinho to cross the ball to Messi or find the CF? Yes ... but the game is limited to his ball placing and not the 1-1s tht Dinho practices at Barza, and which opens up defenses and still leaves 2 monsters like Eto'o and Messi more free to take advantage.

How can the NT find more unbalncing options upfront? With the LB and RB ... Zabaleta played a very descent game yesterday, but he desn't have the speed nor ball control going forward of Zanetti or Ibarra. Clemente had a weak game, mostly for his lack of understanding with Bilos. But he could be the solution for the LB once he has more time to play with the NT and to work with Basile.

Bilos had a descent game too. But he lacks, and has lacked since his days at Boca, of the discipline to chase back in defense. It is no coincidence that El-ano scored twice and Bilos never got back in time.

I did not see a bad game from Lucho ... there are tons of important things he does for the team work that are not noticed, like helping out Masche and also stepping in the other box. Zabaleta should had scored ... and it was 90% Lucho's goal ... by moving towards open space and then that smart backheel.

The defense ... without work, no defense can play a compact game, moreso to talented individualities like Brazil. Ayala and Heinze will be back ... Milito and Samuel could do he back-up for now. But the one who will grow into the place is Gonzalo, once he gets back from injury.

Nothing worries me of this first friendly. The score lies on the chances of goals, which sould be what we should be focusing on. There was little team work in such a short time. And Brazil at least knew the face of their coach. Couldn't say that of Messi and many others who had never even met Coco.

Just chill guys and look ahead. Brazil is no Banfield ... and the time together with this team is no way to plan a serious tournament. That time will come.

.

Pekerman · Sep 4, 2006

so now Messi is a "media balloon". Well I think I have heard it all now. What happened to all the potential that we have seen ? He cannot pass the ball ? Was that pass to Eto'o and the countless times he showed the same kind of precise passing with Barca and the NT just a dream ? Did I mention that he is still 19 ? One bad game and he is the Ortega version 2.

in da soup · Sep 4, 2006

Pekerman said:

so now Messi is a "media balloon". Well I think I have heard it all now. What happened to all the potential that we have seen ? He cannot pass the ball ? Was that pass to Eto'o and the countless times he showed the same kind of precise passing with Barca and the NT just a dream ? Did I mention that he is still 19 ? One bad game and he is the Ortega version 2.
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well said.

Futballer · Sep 4, 2006

Messi is more effective when he plays high on the right wing because there is more space for him.

What do you guys thing of taking Roman out when he disapears in the later stages of the game? It's always like hes not even there at some points in the match. I think at that point Aimar should come in......just to switch it up alittle.

Our attack is to predictable, and it was to slow, i'm not saying Roman held the ball to long. I'm just saying to get down the field it would take like 10-15 small passes, while Brazil would only use 5 passes,they were attacking at a faster pace.

Pekerman · Sep 5, 2006

Messi does not only play on the right for Barca. He has been predominantly used there but this was not even his natural position at the youth system. Rijkaard converted him to play there because other positions were already occupied and Messi made the position his from day 1. During most games Messi rotates to the left and sometimes to the center. You can watch him play wonderfully, both on the left and on the right, last week in the absence of Ronaldinho. You can watch him play as a #10 for Argentina in the game against Angola.

Barca is a stable powerhouse, Argentina was completely clueless yesterday. Barca plays total football, their rhythm is fast and thunderous. You will not find a Riquelme there to disturb the quick flow of the game with his slow play. Barca has one of the best striker of the world in Eto'o. Argentina did not even play with a striker, Tevez goes wide most of the time and no one is left inside the area. No one is stretching the defence of the opposition. Shutting down Messi was rather easy whereas marking him at Barca would have been very problematic. How can Messi's talent and vision be questioned only after one game where the entire team performance was horrid.

Why is Riquelme considered as an irreplaceable piece of the puzzle ? Can someone tell me when was the last time he played well for the entire game ? I am not talking about few good passes and 40 minutes of doing nothing. I am talking about a remarkable overall performance. I will tell you when, it was against England last year. That is about 8 games ago. So he is averaging one legitimately good performance every 9 games! We should at the very least try other options before writing them off.

mariealus · Sep 5, 2006

I really hate myself at the moment, realizing I don't know a damn bit about anything about this stupid game.

Castroman · Sep 5, 2006

Wanted to make something clear guys

Bilos to Messi should have been a goal
Lucho to Zabaleta should have been a goal
Aguero to Insua must have been a goal!

we failed to connect thats about it the coach did a wounderful job they are actually attacking not defending, remember Brazil vs Argentina last yr during the qualifiers we only attacked 4 times and scored 3 :> same thing happened to us on Sunday :>:>:>

we need D'alessandro, Belluschi, Messi a fast midfield guys plzzzzzzz no slow players u guys seriously dont understand slow football is for england cause they cant run not for Argentina! Riquelme should retire int level!

and for those who think aimar already got his chance well at least when hes around the midfield plays better football! and he links the midfield with the forwards! same thing D'alessandro!

and u know what combination i'd like to see played up front? i wanna see either Rosales, Tevez or Palacio, Millito or Saviola, Cavenaghi and Aguero i'd play him behind the strikers cause this kid can pass balls better than ur Riquelme that has been dissapointing for a yr and a half now just plz bring back our D'alessandro and Rosales that was our prime time!

RacingGirl · Sep 5, 2006

After reading this thread, im kind of glad i didn't get to see the game. It sounds like it was pure torture

bsas · Sep 5, 2006

RacingGirl said:

After reading this thread, im kind of glad i didn't get to see the game. It sounds like it was pure torture
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No, it was a nice game to watch, with moments of genius from both sides. Argentina almost scored a "back-heel" goal like the one against S&M. The only problem was that they couldn't score shite, while Brazil rushed a few times straight to our goal and scored 3.

ilovefotball · Sep 5, 2006

argentine soccer fan said:

Maybe Messi is best in midfield, maybe Messi can be an effective striker, but I wouldn't conclude that he cannot do it based on this one match. Messi was not very effective as a striker, mainly because he was forced to track back. Maybe that's the way he plays, he is more confortable tracking back to get the ball. But in this match at least, he did it because he needed to do it. If he stayed up he wasn't getting the ball, except for the occasional centers by Bilos, which really didn't play to his strength. Neither Riquelme nor Lucho were finding him. It was the same with Tevez.

Both Messi and Tevez were getting a bit frustruated and trying to do too much on their own, I thought. Part of it was the lack of movement by their teammates. I don't think it has to do with their failure to have the capacity to play effectively as a forward.

.
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ASF, my comments to Messi is not based on this one game. I mean i have seen Messi play in Right/left wingwe, as an attacking midfielder and as a striker. In Barca Messi rotates to Right and in center with Eto and Ronaldinho, and the worst he plays is in Center. he plays great in left/right wing, he plays great as an attacking midfielder(well not yet Midfielder as nr 10 though) but he is completly useless when he is in center. I have seen him play against Netherlands,too. and as someone previously told that Messi don't stay too often in the box and neither does Tevez, they both get too back on the field and believe me it's not because they are not getting the ball, but it's because they both play that way. to be honest there are some reasons i don't want to see Messi as a striker:
1. He plays better on other position.
2. He is short and he don't even try to jump on air balls.
3. He don't have that great finishing.
4. He can't use his right feet as he does his left.

we have other players who have this 2 to 4 qualities and they are better than Messi on this. and Messi is also Better on other position, this is how i think we can utilize all the talents we have and not just waste them. that's why i want to play Messi as a Left/right wing or Midfielder and play Tevez and Aguero as strikers.

even though Aguero played 15 mins, he showed me enough quality with his pass to Insua where not only the Brazilians were surprised but Insua and Messi both were surprise to get that Ball. Aguero is quality and this guy is going to be great,so use him. he is going to be atleast as good as Messi , and i am saying this from the first day i saw him.
play Aguero as much as we can.
i want this line-up

-----------Tevez--------Aguero

Riquelme/Aimar ---------------------Messi

-------------Somoza/Gago/Demischelles-----Mascherano

----Heinze-------Milito-----Gonzalo(if uninjured)-------Zabaleta

---------------------Barbosa/our 3rd keeper in the WC-------------------

in da soup · Sep 5, 2006

bsas said:

No, it was a nice game to watch, with moments of genius from both sides. Argentina almost scored a "back-heel" goal like the one against S&M. The only problem was that they couldn't score shite, while Brazil rushed a few times straight to our goal and scored 3.
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brasil were the infinitely better side.

i was at the game in my argentina shirt and even i can see that.

it was blatently obvious.

they attacked with pace and purpose and possessed a real cutting edge.

the same cant be said for us.

therein lies the difference.

for a period in the second half we reacted to being a goal down, but it was a long time coming and it wasnt enough.

messi and tevez didn't get a look in.

they came deep to collect the ball because they were totally isolated.

roman played in front of the defence rather than behind the strikers where he could hurt brasil.

we missed a centre forward.

yes we had two or three chances but they had far more.

some may say thats because we were chasing the game and leaving ourselves exposed.

who cares?

brasil went a goal up on merit by scoring a great goal that derived from intricate teamwork exercised at pace that cut our defence to ribbons.

the first goal is often the most important as it dictates the rest of the game.

by virtue of scoring that goal, brasil earned the right for the game to pan out the way it did.

hurts me to say it but its true.

DCFAN96 · Sep 5, 2006

I though Argentina looked the to be the better team for long stretches of the game, but Brazil was a lot more clinical in finishing and creating chances.

Seriously though why is Riquelme given a free pass on this team, teh guy play great for his club but hasn't shown much for Argie team. The guy was invisible all game, why aren't other options being tested over this guy?

vipnerd · Sep 5, 2006

Pekerman said:

Messi does not only play on the right for Barca. He has been predominantly used there but this was not even his natural position at the youth system. Rijkaard converted him to play there because other positions were already occupied and Messi made the position his from day 1. During most games Messi rotates to the left and sometimes to the center. You can watch him play wonderfully, both on the left and on the right, last week in the absence of Ronaldinho. You can watch him play as a #10 for Argentina in the game against Angola.

Barca is a stable powerhouse, Argentina was completely clueless yesterday. Barca plays total football, their rhythm is fast and thunderous. You will not find a Riquelme there to disturb the quick flow of the game with his slow play. Barca has one of the best striker of the world in Eto'o. Argentina did not even play with a striker, Tevez goes wide most of the time and no one is left inside the area. No one is stretching the defence of the opposition. Shutting down Messi was rather easy whereas marking him at Barca would have been very problematic. How can Messi's talent and vision be questioned only after one game where the entire team performance was horrid.

Why is Riquelme considered as an irreplaceable piece of the puzzle ? Can someone tell me when was the last time he played well for the entire game ? I am not talking about few good passes and 40 minutes of doing nothing. I am talking about a remarkable overall performance. I will tell you when, it was against England last year. That is about 8 games ago. So he is averaging one legitimately good performance every 9 games! We should at the very least try other options before writing them off.
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How much faster is Deco compared to Riquelme? Or Xavi? Both Barza players certainly have a double role in defending, which Roman lacks. But to create football at the speed needed there is certainly a similarity with both of the players that generate the football in Barza's midfield.

Back to Messi ... I read what I wrote and realized that the way I wrote it could be (and probably was) interpreted differently from y intent. I wrote and then took off to play a footie game myself without checking again.

What I meant of a "media balloon" refers to this "saviour" role that the media has given Lionel, not that he is worthless. Yes, Messi can do wonders if he plays his role IN A TEAM. Messi doesn't have the characteristics of a playmaker yet, he could develop them in the future. He does not have the field vision to maximize his 1-1 on the opponents ... he ALWAYS holds the ball way too long, as if it is a highschool game.

When Messi is used on the right ... wide open, he is maximizing his team's offensive chances, as he is automatically spreading the defenders, most times even 2 that have to be worried on him. With his speed and ball control, there is a lot more space for him to cross or cut in to his best foot. The arrival from behind of either the RM or RB are important to free the CF. It is simple football, the way Basile sees the game btw.

It is obvious that Messi will float around the front of attack at Barza for periods of the game. But he does so to appear by surprise and can maximize it, not because it is his best position.

In the same note ... it is a different story a game like against Germany in the last WC. Then Argentina was ahead of the score, was being pushed back by Germany and needed speed in the counters. It was the right time for Messi.

I don't see Messi as the playmaker. Not yet, if he ever does. I see him as a second forward ... unbalancing the opponents in the last 1/4 of the field ... assisting the best placed teammate once he has dribbled, and scoring when the opportunity appears.

Basile likes Riquelme. But he won't hesitate to try other players in that position, like Insua, D'Alessandro and Aimar. He needs time to try players ... and he has always looked inside the Argentine tournie for fresh faces. Belluschi, Gago, Diaz, Ibarra, Higuain, Castroman, Lavezzi ... even Veron have the door open. It seems that on October 8th, the day of the superclasico, Basile will take players away from Both Boca and River to the NT game. The power struggle between the NT and the clubs will start soon.

.

andywhat · Sep 5, 2006

I think Basile didn't take this game seriously, but Dunga did. From what I saw, Lucho needs to be out, and in that place if you don't want Crespo who will finish the play and score then put in Chelo Delgado. Lucho missed several opportunities, one being right in front of goal by himself and kicking way the hell out. I liked him but his time is up. I also see that we need Heinze, him and Colocinni are perfect defense, also we lacked the mystery player which is Sorin, who can be up top and all the sudden be down in defense, he throws the defense comletely out and suprises them. I think Riquelme could be switched out with Tevez without a problem. It was a sad day but I didn't take it seriously either b/c i saw Basile was just putting in players that never had an opportunity and presenting their talents to everyone. We need to tighten up the defense, I can't believe the second goal from Brazil, Elano was sorrounded by 4 or 5 players and he still got through.

Aguero · Sep 5, 2006

Messi vs Brazil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5gGKouXDYA&eurl=

RacingGirl · Sep 5, 2006

If anyone has the torrent to this game, i'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

KesOne · Sep 5, 2006

Brazil vs. Argentina Torrent

RacingGirl · Sep 5, 2006

kesone95 said:

Brazil vs. Argentina Torrent
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thank you, Keso

maxpepper · Sep 5, 2006

Simeone para la seleccion

nyosi · Sep 5, 2006

Messi is not a playmaker.He plays better on the right and i believe Roman still has a lot to offer.Lucho was also a disappointment but to say his time is up is ridiculous.

Castroman · Sep 5, 2006

One more thing guys we need defenders like Palleta, Diaz, Garay, Heinze guys who can actually run not barely catch up with kaka! did u see Samuel? its really sad he use to be a good defender now hes wack! and 2 goals Pato didnt even know where to jump! the guy is out of form the ball goes right he goes left! u can tell me he made a good save when Fred kicked the ball at him yeah of course the ball was straight in his face middle of the goal! he should save that!

and seriously Robinho, Elano walk through the center defenders like that! that defense wasnt good at all i like clemente's speed and attack but he needs to improve on defending and zabaleta was good but the center guys were just out of the game Millito didnt play well but he tried, but still he's not a starter we need something better than that its time for Lux, Ustari to take their place

although im not a boca fan! but Palacio is a must cause the kid can finish! he can score! thats a fact

KesOne · Sep 5, 2006

RacingGirl said:

thank you, Keso
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Your quite welcome. Eventhough you know the result, looking at the whip in your avatar I figured you were up for the torture.

Borussia · Sep 5, 2006

Do you know a site where I can find pics of Insua in the albiceleste top against Brasil? Thanx.

ElGaucho · Sep 5, 2006

nyosi said:

Messi is not a playmaker.He plays better on the right and i believe Roman still has a lot to offer.Lucho was also a disappointment but to say his time is up is ridiculous.
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greetings nyosi! welcome to the forum... btw, what happened in the angola game??

nyosi · Sep 6, 2006

We got the usual beating but the worst part is our first choice goal keeper lost his life 11 hours after the match.Anyway if Basile can make Argentina play like the '94 team then i'll be happy.Why is it that if we don't play well Roman always takes the blame?