Portugal - 364 years ago

Discussion in 'Portugal' started by Frank Cunha, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. pookspur

    pookspur Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Indiana
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    fair enough. i probably should've phrased it differently, as i wasn't implying that portugal has acted, or should act, tough. i was simply suggesting that the portuguese have steadfastly refused to submit their sovereignty to another people (castillians) - and that i hope they continue to do so with regard to the european mass.

    cheers.
     
  2. JuveleoRules

    JuveleoRules Member

    Jun 8, 2002
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Club:
    Sporting CP Lisbon
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Good point and nicely stated....But in fairness we can not compare any European country to any in Southeast Asia or Asia for that matter. With the exception of Japan, Malaysia and China the rest are not in very good shape and if Manufacturing of goods goes there so be it.. We can not criticize if someone wants to work for want THEY think is a fair wage.

    Too many time we have seen North American and certain European countries lose out on this because the labor force is not willing to work at these types of jobs. This is precisely way the Global Economy now exists...

    If no one wants to work for minimum wage or work in a Factory who will produce the majority of the goods that we all now buy. Who will do the farming, etc.....

    Sorry guys, but we should probably move this to the Political forum.....
     
  3. leafster

    leafster New Member

    Jul 21, 2004
    Toronto, Canada
    We need an off topic forum so we can talk about non soccer related stuff. There are more than enough posters on the Portugal board for that.
     
  4. pookspur

    pookspur Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Indiana
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    very well put. i'd be hard-pressed to argue against it too strenuously.

    but trust me. americans know a thing or two about federalization. brussells is going to accrue more and more power. and lisbon, amsterdam, and copenhagen are going to maintain less and less.

    has it paid off so far? sure. life's good in the low countries, as in most of western europe. but it's going to change. europe's been cruising down easy street because it's been able to channel all of it's productive resources into social programs.

    but mark my words. the US is in the process of dramatically readjusting it's military priorities, and you're going to see alot fewer US troops in europe in the years to come. europe will then be confronted by the issue, and costs, of defense - the very concept of which they haven't had to dirty their hands with in generations. and when four-day work weeks, and 12 weeks of paid holidays for all suddenly become untenable, do you think the big boys in brussells are going to say "oh well, lisbon, carry on."? no, they're going to take your taxes for defense, and your boys to stick on the turkish border. and you're going to be saying, "geez, i never really felt that threatened by my spanish neighbors to my east, nor by the vast expanses of the atlantic to my west. but damn, we'd better get in line to protect franco-german politico-business interests, cause if we don't, how will the crumbs ever ever trickle down to braga?"

    now, this quasi-doomsday scenario may not quite be fair. but all i'm saying is that once you relinquish your sovereinty, it's damned difficult to get it back.
     
  5. ferreirajl

    ferreirajl New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Lisbon, Portugal
    I understand your point and I can say that is a concern that is in the back of everybody's minds, and to be honest... I think we all try to look only at the bright side of things and hope for the best. Cos, really, what else can we, tiny Portugal, do?

    There's really no getting around the fact that Portugal is in a lose-lose scenario here. We're a small country. We have no military power. No economic impact. No natural resources. So what do we do?

    -Stay out of Europe in a renewal of the 60's policy "Alone. But Proud."? (and surely become Albania because now we have no colonies to explore)

    or

    -Get in Europe and take the bad with the good? The good being an elevation of the standard of living to central european standards.... the bad... the implications on foreign policy, wich mean we may have to fight some war that isn't ours (we have had troops in Bosnia and Iraq anyway so....), or lose all iniciattive in conducting our affaires.
     
  6. ferreirajl

    ferreirajl New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Lisbon, Portugal
    A final note:

    France, Italy, Germany and England (I think) have already very capable weapon industries and a consortium to build some aircraft together. Planes like the Eurofighter, the Tornado, are result of that consortium.
    In the same way there's an assault helicopter called Eurocopter (I think). There's the french aviation industry which is quite capable (Mirage, Rafale, etc)
    France and England have nuclear weapons/ or the technology to build them.
    These are all high tech projects, and I don't think Europe would have any trouble deffending it's borders.
    What's more important though... is that I can't even imagine who would the enemy be, now that the cold war is over. Russia? Turkey? Who?
     
  7. pookspur

    pookspur Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Indiana
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    a very nice, concise analysis of contemporary portugal's dilemma.

    not difficult to see why the 'good' of joining europe appears to greatly outweigh the 'bad'. i just hope it stays that way.

    best of luck to portugal - and all of europe, for that matter.
     
  8. pookspur

    pookspur Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Indiana
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    no question that europe has all the technical capacities and strategic nous to defend itself. but the issue in this regard is cost. it's one thing to develop technologies - it's quite another to provide for their sustainence in a practical, operable sense over time. that doing so - should europe be required to - will have a significant effect on european standards of living is beyond question. and this isn't even taking into account the possible eventualities of economic recessions or worse.

    europe's technological expertise, and her economic capabilities are both very impressive - but it's a heavy load.

    and the sentence that i've highlighted, quite possibly, illustrates the problem as clearly as anything. europe has now spent two generations without these burdens - and much of official europe (not just friendly folks on message boards), i fear, has lost touch with what they require.

    for what it's worth, we, too, asked ourselves the same question after the cold war's conclusion. trust me, they'll manifest themselves in due time. sadly, human nature demands it.

    i really don't mean to sound argumentative about this stuff. i find your points very well thought out and articulated, and i appreciate the opportunity to discuss them with you. i genuinely wish portugal and all of europe the best.

    that said, you can't figure out who the enemy might be? well, that, too, is part of the job.
     
  9. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    asweome ;) my fav story form the good ole days when I was trampin around the middle east and losin an eye, is the inez castro story. they should make a movie bout that one.
     
  10. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    sorry money dosnt come before pride.
     
  11. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    every country has had strange bed fellows. In world war II the states were perty chum chum with stalin until the war ended.
     
  12. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    I say we invade galacia as soon as we get the chance ;)
     
  13. Quaresma_10

    Quaresma_10 New Member

    Feb 10, 2005
    let's invade spain by surprise and take the country by force!!!!!!
     
  14. ferreirajl

    ferreirajl New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Lisbon, Portugal
    they have 200 of these

    [​IMG]

    while we have only 20 of these

    [​IMG]

    ... and they're second hand too :D
     
  15. ferreirajl

    ferreirajl New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Spanish EF2000-Eurofighter

    [​IMG]


    Portuguese Alpha Jet :eek:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. leafster

    leafster New Member

    Jul 21, 2004
    Toronto, Canada
    Hey, at least they have nice paint jobs :)

    [​IMG]
     
  17. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    I say we all get juiced up on bang bang and egg there parliment building at least well make the news
     
  18. Hurley

    Hurley New Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    Porto
    wrong. If it was just an Iberian league Benfica, Sporting and Porto would get more revenue so they wouldnt be mid-table teams. At least Benfica wouldnt.
     
  19. ferreirajl

    ferreirajl New Member

    Jun 5, 2002
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Remember me to rep you for this gem! :D
     
  20. LuisCamoes

    LuisCamoes Red Card

    Jul 25, 2004
    Boston USA
    Hey after all I am Luiz Camoes ;)
     

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