Portland funding gap more like $26 million (not an April Fools thread)

And there I was, talking about more than that. Or meaning it, one. The reason these buildings get torn down is because of economics.

Plus, the Kingdome was about the ugliest structure (and most depressing inside) I think I've ever seen.

And the fact they got more out of that plot of land and the ancillary benefits of it seems to be a chit in favor of that strategy, right?

Depends. I haven't penciled it out. Depends on what you're going to repurpose it for. Something that generates $X through sales taxes or other taxes versus a venue that generates $X through sales taxes and creates jobs (such as they are)? I don't know. Other people, economists can do the math. If it makes sense to do it one way, you'd think they'd do it that way. Not that governments always make the 100% most efficient, correct calls on things.

Eventually everything gets torn down, doesn't it? Even though it's being used, it's been, what, 13 years since the Rose Garden was built? Isn't the clock ticking? If they can find a use for it, that'll be more than can be said for most buildings built in that era, right? (Not all of those are downtown, I grant you.)

Would that it were so. Hopefully people will think this way.

Danger may be a strong word. But these things that are contingent on lots of money almost always get done when it's for an NFL team or suchlike. We soccer fans have learned to be less than optimistic.

 

But they're going to renovate it a lot, right?

PGE is in a good location, isn't it?

Wouldn't do any good. I'm just yodeling.

 

MC isnt used for anything that cant be put 100 yards to its east in the rose garden. seriously, the ONLY people who give a flying ******** about memorial coliseum are old timers who had a moment there some 40 years ago. the place is a disaster that needed to be razed 10 years ago. its decrepit and a major cost to the city of portland. it looks like shit and needs to go. hell, i would rather there be a parking lot there to ease the ridiculous pain of going to blazers games than the MC. as far as it acting as a memorial to war vets, are you f'ing kidding me? a crap stadium as a memorial? what a joke, they deserve more than a 40+ year old run down building as their memorial.

there is no more need to have memorial coliseum. maybe ill start a website saying how useless the place is.

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/memorial_coliseum_advocates_we.html

And if the building is gutted and refurbished/repurposed, it can be used for so much more. The argument that it is "falling apart" is disingenuous as the city hasn't been keeping it up. If they are willing to consider building a tiny baseball stadium in its place, they could at least consider how the existing structure can be used to benefit the city.

Weigh the costs and benefits of each side of the argument:

- cost of baseball stadium, cost of demolition, wastefulness of a perfectly usable structure (not green at all), local minor league team gets their own minor-league-quality baseball stadium

- cost of refurb, plethora of possible uses that can benefit the city as a whole, local minor league team can still site their own minor-league-quality stadium across the street that could be expanded for MLB

As for Paul Allen's stupid "live" zone, that ridiculous development is going up around the periphery of the Memorial Coliseum/proposed baseball stadium site. Knocking down Memorial is not contingent at all on him going forward with those plans. Furthermore, a refurbished Memorial available to the community at large dovetails much better with the intention of bringing people to the Rose Quarter on a regular basis. A minor-league baseball stadium is so myopic compared to all the potential uses of Memorial. Does anyone really think a tiny 9,000-seat minor-league baseball stadium is really going to liven up that area? I sincerely hope that Portlanders force the city council to re-think these plans and come back with something that is smarter and works for everybody.

 

Marquis, why are you doing this either/or thing? PGE Park can be renovated for the Timbers, the Beavers can get a minor league baseball stadium that can be expanded for MLB, Memorial Coliseum can stay, and Paul Allen can build his "live" zone. It makes no sense to knock down Memorial, nor have such hatred against it. I bet you wouldn't be so gung-ho about tearing it down if it wasn't all part of the MLS package. Take a step back and realize that this package can be re-tooled to be a better deal for everybody.

Also, in terms of Sam Adams' political fate, he can take this as an opportunity to create win-win-wins. If he continues down this path and creates more political opposition, then he is really toast. He might be toast anyways, in which case future governor Randy Leonard should be thinking about his political future. They are both increasingly looking like corporate toadies. Maybe they're getting all their advice from Fat Greg Nickels.

 

I'm sure somebody does. Else they wouldn't consider it.

I'm sure you realize that right now there are people in Portland (and lots of other places) who either are saying, have said, or would say "WTF? A soccer stadium? That gets used 20 times a year? I should pay for that? Soccer is boring and effeminate besides."

You and I don't feel that way, obviously. But lots of people do, unfortunately for us.

To be fair, there are people who are against baseball stadiums, too. There are people who are against anything. Yet history shows us that getting a baseball stadium built is a hell of a lot easier than getting a soccer stadium built.

You're closer to it than we are: is Portland's MLS team contingent on a stadium solution? At what point?

 

(I should add that if there's a reasonable way for everybody to get everything they want - PGE gets renovated, Portland gets an MLS team, Memorial Coliseum either gets help or gets repurposed or whatever, the Beavers get their stadium and Allen gets his live zone - that would be the way to go, in my mind.)

 

Bright ... no time to respond so I'll just say this: one of the events Memorial Coliseum holds every year is the OSAA HS Dance & Drill Championships.





You're telling me THAT is something you want to cling to? We can't hold THAT -- whatever that is -- at ANY other place? Or better yet, can we just cancel it altogether?


The reason I'm posting this is, many of the 160 events the MC hosts annually are just as stupid as this non-revenue HS event.

 

It's just a jump to the left....

 

Asprilla, you said that there were no events held there. I posted an article that refuted your claim. Now you are straw-manning the pro-Memorial argument with that picture? I have to remind myself that I am posting to a sports forum where some posters aren't going to take the time to consider the bigger picture, even for the city they call home.

If you sincerely believe that Memorial Coliseum should come down under any circumstances, please explain exactly why and how this is a benefit to the city. Keep in mind the costs of demolition, and the fact that your mayor ran on a "green" platform which includes refurbishing old structures rather than tearing them down.

If you sincerely believe that the minor league baseball stadium cannot be located anywhere else other than the Memorial Coliseum site, please explain exactly why.

Once again, Memorial Coliseum is an innocent bystander in this whole stadium package. There is no fundamental reason why it must be demolished. Anyone who is arguing for its demolition should also make an honest attempt to refute the arguments that 1) the baseball stadium can easily be sited across the street, where it can potentially be expanded for MLB, 2) the school district will save money by vacating those buildings, and 3) Memorial Coliseum can be refurbished and/or repurposed for other uses. If you cannot refute any of these arguments, then you are merely being spitefully short-sighted to think it is okay to knock down Memorial Coliseum.

I would also like to add that this kind of attitude is not helpful for political purposes. If you want PGE Park to be Timbers-only, then you have to work with the city including all its political constituencies. Other constituencies won't be impressed by those who say "knock the f'er down, I don't give a damn about it." In turn, the pro-Memorial people might coalesce around a position that goes something like this: "don't fund the $26 million gap, I don't give a damn about your soccer team."

 

Memorial Coliseum's primary mission these days is to host the Portland Winter Hawks. Through most of the years where the Hawks were splitting time between there and the Garden, they averaged double the attendance in the Garden. Attendance has slipped significantly since the last Hawks ownership decided on playing all games in MC. Point is that fans don't think much of Memorial Coliseum. The people who want to save it most are (1) architects and (2) veterans who think the arena is the memorial. One of the sad statements from the second group was long-time advocate Gil Frey trying to sell us that Avenged, Sevenfold, and Buckcherry were a big deal to be playing in MC.

As for the architects, their contention is that the arena is distinct in its design... a glass exterior with a bowl shape inside not connected to the outer structure. I don't think it's ugly (at least not in its day, meaning years ago), but the architects' comments + proposal to restructure isn't exactly compatible, no? Furthermore, if you think the city is going to pay for THAT with the Garden next door, then reason and personal responsibility dictate that you share the drugs.

Most of all, do you think "repurposing" involves a cheap renovation? Does that include taking down the glass temporarily? What's THAT cost? I suspect more than either the PGE renovation (and that was recently renovated with primarily retrofit to seismic standards) or the ballpark proposal. Maybe even both.

Doug Piper is the Winter Hawks GM, he says the Hawks are being included in this process now... he knows it's coming down, and they seem to want that. I think that's telling all by itself.

 

Marquis, you and others are not listening to what I have been saying. Why must Memorial Coliseum be demolished? Your primary concern is that PGE Park is ready for MLS. Correct? Memorial Coliseum is an innocent bystander. Are you telling me that if the Timbers weren't heading up to MLS, and there was no minor league baseball stadium to be built, you would still ask your government to demolish Memorial Coliseum? What purpose does that serve?

As it stands, the only purpose demolition serves right now is to accommodate the baseball stadium, which could easily go across the street on a better site that can be expanded for MLB.

Also, I am not sure that the Blazers will get control of the land in 10 years (something I have only heard from you, no offense) if Memorial Coliseum ends up on the historical register.

Paul, the costs of refurbishing Memorial Coliseum are of course unknown. It depends on what designs are decided upon. That will take some time, and it looks like a couple of your councilmembers are not interested in examining this option and instead are trying to fast-track demolition. I sincerely hope that the people at tonight's meeting put the brakes on this short-sighted venture and implore the council to examine ALL possibilities. They can still have the baseball stadium across the street, plus whatever they think can be put inside the glass structure. A large indoor public area is a great asset for downtown Portland, and it will only add to whatever plans the Blazers have for the Rose Quarter.

 

Nobody needs to prove this to you. But anyway, how is the status quo a benefit to the city? Redundant facilities exist across the street, while the MC would need very expensive upgrades. Maybe you should convince all of us how doing nothing (or further investing in the MC) is the best thing for Portland. Will you take the aesthetic tact (it's a benchmark example of brutalist architecture) or will you rally for the economic benefit of annual cat shows?

Nobody has the burden to explain this to you either. People looking at the big picture (that neither you nor any of us have privvy to) have selected this site from among other candidates. You may claim that these people don't represent everybody in Portland, but nobody does and somebody will ALWAYS be unhappy with any change. However, the people proposing this DO represent the only people in the position right now to make a baseball stadium happen so there's your 'exactly why'.

Innocent bystander? It was an unsafe dump well before the the MLS talks began and Vulcan is just one of many parties that have been eager to see it go.

Why again do you qualify as an expert on Portland politics? I think I recall that you guaranteed the council would vote the bid down and that MLS would never select Portland.

Not liking your track record at all.

And since you only became interested in Memorial Coliseum when it presented itself as a potential hurdle for MLS in Portland (or have you been working in your spare time to have MC placed on the historic register for years now?) you probably don't know that there have been calls to demolish the eyesore for some time. This isn't a Timbers thing, friend.

 

I think for bright this has always been a Dance & Drill thing.



He doesn't want to see it go.

 

my high school graduation was held at the MC.

tear that shit down.

 

My father proposed to my mother during Cat Fanciers '78 at the MC. Jumbotron shots and all.

 

</thread>

 

It costs the city 500k more than it brings in to keep it usable. In order to keep the MC from being condemmed in the near future a large ammount of money will need to be dumped into it. So in a situation where there are limited dollars to go around keeping the MC means significant costs in maintenance and refurbishing. This means it is not merely an innocent bystander.

 

Also in play is that the Convention Center is losing many events to the MC that really are better suited to the Convention Center. One of the cities high priorities is getting more events in the convention center because it has the facilities and recent construction to be a true gem.

Even with 160 events the MC still loses money.

P.S. I went to the MC twice in the past 6 months, the first time my seat was broken, the second the roof tiles started leaking on me. Not to mention the big screen froze when I went the season before.

 

H5 and Marquis, thank you for expressing your opinions in a civil manner. H5, the article I recently posted had a quote from Isaacs about Memorial making/losing money. He said that some years it makes money, while in others it loses money.

Fenerbace and Asprilla, think whatever you like. Just because I have a strong opinion about Memorial Coliseum does not mean I am against the Portland bid. Also, Fenerbace, I think I was correct about everything I said about Portland's bid not being a good idea for MLS compared to the other bids that were in play at the time. Portland is now in because of attrition in the bidding process. But all the negative things about Portland that I pointed out at the time -- bad economic outlook, difficult political process, resistance to corporate welfare, an owner not willing/able to put up enough private money, lack of corporate base to push the bid through -- are all still true. I still would like to have all three PNW cities in the league despite that, and I am glad things are working out.

I don't have any hard evidence such as polls to back this up, but from what I hear from friends in Portland, most people are very upset about the prospects of Memorial Coliseum being torn down. I can only assume that the opinions expressed in this thread to the contrary are in the minority. I could be wrong, though.

Did anyone attend the open house tonight? Would be interesting to get a personal perspective.