Pork, Corruption, and the Military Budget - BushCo Style

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by DoctorJones24, Nov 21, 2004.

  1. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=1&u=/washpost/20041120/ts_washpost/a63815_2004nov19

    "By R. Jeffrey Smith, Washington Post Staff Writer
    Air Force Secretary James G. Roche asked a lobbyist for Boeing Co. to use the company's Washington contacts to "quash" a deputy undersecretary of defense and make him "pay an appropriate price" for objecting to the Air Force's decision to lease Boeing 767 tanker aircraft, according to e-mails released yesterday by a Republican senator critical of the tanker deal

    Roche also pressured independent military cost analysts who questioned the high price of the lease, described other internal Pentagon (news - web sites) critics as "animals," and ridiculed executives at European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co. (EADS) and its Airbus division, the consortium that offered a competing plan, the e-mails show. He told his top public relations aide to "blow . . . away" the EADS chairman for raising questions about the Air Force decision to work with Boeing.

    At one point in the three-year Air Force campaign for the lease, Roche e-mailed a friend at Raytheon Co., "Privately between us: Go Boeing!"

    Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a statement hailing Roche for serving "our country capably and with honor.""
     
  2. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Must have been a Friday.
     
  3. topcatcole

    topcatcole BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 26, 2003
    Washington DC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I noticed you didn't link to this story
    http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/10239069.htm?1c
    about McCain where he goes after "Pork and Corruption". Is it just the Pentagon that is worthy of your attacks? Or is it possible that the whole system needs an overhaul?
    Just a question. Have you read the original memo? Was Roche asking that an appropriate price be paid for the aircraft, or was he saying the official in question should pay a price for his opposition. I know which way the Post writer has spun it, but I would be more comfortable seeing the whole memo. I have worked with journalists before and they, like most people, sometimes see what they want to see.
    If McCain is right, heads should roll. But if it turns out that we are getting a bunch of statements taken out of context, I think he should be man enough to apologize.
     
  4. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Totally agree. The whole system needs an overhaul. Thanks for the link.

    Not that this is why I only posted the military link (it's just the only one I saw at that time early on a Sunday am), but I do think the military budget is more pork laden than other areas, from my past experience. It's just a lot easier to get stuff passed when it has the veneer of "defense" even if noone really believes it to be legit.

    I'd say a good 1/4 of the "defense" (idiotic Orwellian name) budget is nothing but pork, and another 1/4 pretty close to it in the form of keeping open redundant overseas bases and/or purchasing duplicate and triplicate weapons systems (usage-wise).
     
  5. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    I've had just th eopposite impression. Defense is subject to human nature and hence has it's share of dumb ideas. However, since every few years thye have to put metal on target, they tend to correct their bad decisions. DOE, NASA, NIST and EPA on the other hand rarely have to face the reality of their decisions and will throw good money after bad.
     
  6. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I highly doubt the waste is anywhere near that high of a %. You may want us to have a European style military, but that's another discussion.
     
  7. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Well, by "redundant bases," I was referring to our silly imperial presence in over a hundred nations--way overkill, IMO, and I think much of the rationale to keep them (and even expand, recently) is due to the various contracts that interested parties want to get to support them. So that's not exactly "pork," but it is in my estimation. I'd put SDI in the pork category too.

    Anyway, regardless of whether the military budget is bloated by 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever number you want to argue, what do you mean by a "European style military?" As opposed to a Asian one? A South American one? I'd just like us to have a SANE military not beholden to a corporate-government complex that uses it as economic muscle to secure greater and greater profits for a very few corrupt peope.
     
  8. tcmahoney

    tcmahoney New Member

    Feb 14, 1999
    Metronatural
    Hold the phone. Is this including or excluding the presence of Marine guards at our embassies worldwide? I'm just curious. If it's excluding, I'd love to see a list of the countries where we're at.

    Oh, and I love your signature. (EDIT to add it.) "In hindsight, perhaps it was a mistake for the Yankees to raise a "Mission Accomplished" banner above their dugout after Game 3."

    :D
     
  9. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    No, embassy security not included.

    I'll see if I can find it. I know I came across the number recently, and was surprised at how high it really was--I think it referred to a dozen or so new ones in the Middle East alone. It might have been from Chalmers Johnson's new book, "The Sorrows of Empire," now that I think of it.

    Here are some passages from an excerpt available online:
    http://www.presentdanger.org/papers/sorrows2003.html

    Re: military pork generally:

    "The permanent military domination of the world is an expensive business. During fiscal year 2003, the U.S.'s military appropriations bill, signed on October 23, 2002, came to $354.8 billion. For fiscal year 2004, the Department of Defense asked Congress for a 4.2% increase, to $380 billion. When the budget was presented, sycophantic Congressmen spent most of their time asking the defense secretary if he was sure he did not need even more money and suggesting big weapons projects that could be built in their districts. They seemed to say that no matter how much the U.S. spends on "defense," it will not be enough. The next largest military spender is Russia, but its military budget is only 14% of the U.S.'s total. To equal current U.S. expenditures, the military budgets of the next twenty-seven highest spenders would have to be added together. The American amounts do not include the intelligence budgets, most of which are controlled by the Pentagon, nor do they include expenditures for the Iraq war or the Pentagon's request for a special $10 billion account to combat terrorism."

    And here's part of what I remember from the book regarding foreign bases, though I think he was more specific in it:

    "The Pentagon has deployed a quarter of a million troops against Iraq, several thousand soldiers are engaged in daily skirmishes in Afghanistan, countless Navy and Air Force crews are manning strategic weapons in the waters off North Korea, a few thousand Marines have been dispatched to the southern Philippines to fight a century-old Islamic separatist movement, several hundred "advisers" are participating in the early stages of a Vietnam-like insurgency in Colombia and elsewhere in the Andean nations, and the U.S. currently maintains a military presence in 140 of the 189 member countries of the United Nations, including significant deployments in twenty-five. The U.S. has military treaties or binding security arrangements with at least thirty-six countries."

    I'm assuming that he's not talking about embassy marines when he says military presence--otherwise, it would be 189 of 189, no?

    Actually, checking on the source that he cites for that statistic, you get this from a Canadian researcher:

    "...the United States maintains more than 800 foreign military installations including 60 major ones. Many current U.S. bases were acquired after previous wars--from the Second World War through the war in Afghanistan. Bases obtained in one war are seen as forward deployment positions for some future war, often involving an entirely new enemy. The Bush administration says publicly that it will leave the Central Asian bases after the "war on terrorism" is over, but privately officials admit they are there to stay. As well as bases, the U.S. is sending in military advisers to a host of countries."

    http://www.fpif.org/outside/commentary/2002/0212milbase.html
     
  10. Own Goal Hat-Trick

    Jul 28, 1999
    ColoRADo
    the best thing about the military is the C-17... a plane that has a HUGE pricetag, isnt as capable as the other cargo aircraft out there, but, we have ordered 300 or so of them, and are taking money away from the other planes... why?

    cause congress loves the 17...

    why?

    cause at least one part on the plane is made in each of the 50 states.



    gives ya lots of warm fuzzy feelings, doesnt it?
     
  11. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    about military presence overseas: If you want to keep the role you have it makes sense though. The Us being in japan and S. Korea keeps N. Korea down and might also help preventing China from attacking Taiwan

    In europe your bases are mainly in germany, Italy, Spain, and the Uk afaik. The Ramstein airbase and the Italian and Spanish ports just make it cheaper to support your troops in the middle east
    Your troops in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Israel(?) are supposed to keep Iran down (as well as they helped to prevent a second Iraqi attack on Kuwait).
    Afghanistan and Iraq is war on terror and cleaning up after making a mess, Balcans is only for cleaning up as well as Haiti, but there someone else made the mess ;-) if you allow me to putt it that way ;-)

    And, there is another reason that your soldiers are stationed in Italy, Germany and Japan, at least historically (besides keeping the comies away):
    All 3 nations were the agressors of WW2, so the allies wanted to keep them low and controlled but be able to defend the commies off...
     
  12. Own Goal Hat-Trick

    Jul 28, 1999
    ColoRADo
    i dont see what the fuss about overseas bases is.

    weve got one in england that we are using regularly, one in germany (they just closed two, and we dont use frankfurt much anymore), two in spain, two in italy, and one in turkey.

    there are, granted, a lot of other, smaller, installations. but theyre really not very primary. and much of the population at these bases are support personnel.


    frankly, we couldnt run the cargo over there without the bases we have in spain, italy or germany.




    and no, counting embassy marines wouldnt make it 189 of 189, because, i dont think that we have an embassy in every nation. i might be wrong, though.
     
  13. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The US does not have any troops in Saudi Arabia or in Israel.
     
  14. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

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