Playoff Tiebreakers: Stop the Madness

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by The Perfesser, Oct 18, 2009.

  1. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    In this case, this can be applied to ChefJim's explanation.

    Imagine if MLS were just going 1-4 East/West, Dallas would have packed it up awhile ago -- you could say they packed things up and then Cunningham said, "Nah uh!!!" and the rest of the team was all, "Wow" and now they're like almost in the playoffs -- and the meak east would have been even less intense.

    The 5 team fight for so few spots is the source of this problem.

    Every game is relevant this weekend. That's a nice problem to have...
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. jbgeach

    jbgeach Member

    Apr 5, 2005
    Chattanooga, TN
    I will say it goal differential is a bad tiebreaker. Remember when Joe Cannon? came forward last year for a final corner and then Beckham scored from 70 yards. That never happens with a GD system. If you win by one goal or 12 it shouldn't matter. BTW- that is what I hate about the home away CL format. It is really one long game played over two venues.
     
  3. mbar

    mbar Member+

    Apr 30, 1999
    Los Angeles, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Next year with a balanced schedule, you can use goal difference.

    This season, it would be an unfair way to compare two teams with different schedules.
     
  4. Emile

    Emile Member

    Oct 24, 2001
    dead in a ditch
    One of the original points does deserve more merit, after I re-read the post. It's not exactly fair for a team to have had an extra home game when comparing head-to-head results. But, with an unbalanced schedule, it's hard to come up with any tiebreaker that is fair. Clearly, the most fair would be to simply award the tiebreaker to the team who played the hardest schedule.
     
  5. cthomer5000

    cthomer5000 Member+

    Apr 23, 2007
    Raleigh NC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    I would imagine they are simply making short-term concessions (more wild card spots) to accomodate for uneven conferences and expansion. I imagine it's a mixed bag right now because they plan on holding on to conferences long term.

    Agreed that it's not ideal, but I think completely overhauling the playoff format annually would be a bit worse.


    And though I don't think I'd endorse it: I think the excitement of this year's playoff race would be a valid selling point for a single table and simply going 1-8 in terms of playoff spots.
     
  6. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
    And for 2010 it will work exactly that way. This is the biggest reason I was so upset with Don Garber for announcing two more expansion teams in 2011 on July 4th weekend of 2008. If we had stayed at 16, that 30 game balanced schedule could have taken hold, so when they went to 18, MLS could have simply played 34 games. Now that's unlikely. We only get one season with a nice balanced schedule, then it all goes funny. Worst part is MLS is still eyeing teams 19 and 20 for 2014ish. At that point, every club will not visit every city every year. At least for 2010, we can have one of those really cool grid schedules, and be able to fill it in for the entire year. I know it's stupid, but it's one of those little things I dig.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I see your point, but I disagree. Here's why.

    The day is coming pretty soon when MLS teams will play some of the teams in the other division only 1 time a year. By maximizing playoff series within a division, MLS is heightening those twice a year rivalries. NE-Chi has become a rivalry because of the playoffs. Once upon a time, Columbus-DC was a rivalry because of the playoffs. Chicago and Dallas are rivals because of their epic 1999 playoff series.
     
  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hmmmm. They're not making any more Saturdays in temperate weather.

    And besides, MLS is pretty clearly going to 20 teams in the intermediate future. Do you think they would have then gone to 38 games?
     
  9. chapka

    chapka Member+

    May 18, 2004
    Haverford, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like head-to-head as a tiebreaker. It doesn't make as much sense with an unbalanced schedule, but with a balanced schedule I think it's the most satisfying tiebreaker. If my team beat your team on the field, but we end up tied on points, it doesn't make sense that I should go home becaus I beat a minnow 3-0 and you beat them 5-0.

    And don't get me started on the "best second-place team" nonsense they do in UEFA qualifying...
     
  10. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    My point wasn't for keeping teams on one side or another, it was simply to tweak the rankings, so that 1 conference or the other doesn't get to face the 3 worst teams who qualify for the playoffs, it's unfair and doesn't have anything to do with rivalries or not.
     
  11. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you favor moving a team from the East bracket to the West bracket in order to balance the brackets, right? If that's what you're saying, I don't see how I got your position wrong.
     
  12. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I guess what I'm saying is the system is broken, and no solution is going to work out how it currently is. When you're already moving western teams to the eastern or eastern teams to the west, moving those teams again to make the seedings actually mean something doesn't seem to matter all that much to me.
     
  13. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
    We should keep it simple. MLS' conference setup isn't much like standard conferences in the American sense of the word. Why have Conference Finals? Just play a quarterfinal round with 1/8, 2/7, 3/6 and 4/5. Have 1/8 meet 4/5 in one MLS Cup Semifinal, and 2/7 and 3/6 in the other. Give the regular season conference winners an advantage for the following season, like a one season 5% or 10% salary cap bump. If RBNY was known as a 2008 MLS Cup Finalist, that would be something to be proud of, instead of the 2008 Western Conference Champions, which is a bigger joke than Jon Gosselin's new day care center opening in Philadelphia.
     
  14. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because you increase local rivalries that way.

    LA-LA will draw better than LA-some team 1000 miles away. Vancouver-Seattle would be epic. Etc.
     
  15. canammj

    canammj Member+

    Aug 25, 2004
    CHINO, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All this tie-breaker is traditional american style sports league crap....
    Single table next year, take the top 8.
    Why don't you want he best 8 in the playoffs? Who care about west vs. east balence? TV ratings are small, traveling fans are small in numbers. We should put he best 8 on the field for the playoffs and see how that works next year and every year there-after.. it should not matter the leage is 16-18-20 teams.. Best 8.. make it mean something to make the playoffs... thus,making the regular season really mean something... Playoffs should be cut to 3 rounds- home and away total goals right to the final. A single game final at nuetral site is , too NFL boring... Need to get the home teams into the finals... add some excitement..
    -
     
  16. BSGuy321

    BSGuy321 Member

    Sep 2, 2008
    Agree.

    Just keep it simple.
     
  17. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Simple" is not a synonym for "better."
     
  18. Mucky

    Mucky Member+

    Mar 30, 2009
    Manchester England
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Just thought I would throw this out there as an alternative tie breaker since it has not been mentioned.
    How about the team with the best disciplinary record goes through?
    It could be used as a second tie breaker at least.
     
  19. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    Rule #6.
     
  20. Nick Katz

    Nick Katz New Member

    Nov 22, 1999
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    How about no playoffs. The best regular season team wins the MLS Cup. (And I'm only half joking.)
     
  21. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah because no soccer leagues ever had to break ties. And none of them use head-to-head, well except Spain, Russia, Portugal, the UEFA Champions League, etc.

    Yes, clearly "traditional american style sports league" crap :rolleyes:
     
  22. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    [evil]

    This would all get solved if they just brought back the shootout. After all, they could use a 3/1/0, and give the team that wins the shootout gets a tenth of a point (basically the tiebreaker). The odds against three or more teams go past W/L records, shootouts, and head to heads, would be astronomical.

    [/evil]
     
  23. edwardgr

    edwardgr Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 6, 2006
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For those saying that all final weekend games should start at the same time fine. Tell me how you do that with an uneven number of teams?

    Chivas has two matches this week, they are very much in the thick of the playoff chase albeit the top of the Western conference as opposed to a potential last spot tie breaker, but still.
     
  24. RerunStubs

    RerunStubs Member

    Dec 8, 2006
    At a glance, it looks to me that if Columbus and Chivas tie on 49 points, the Supporters' Shield will actually come down to fewer league disciplinary points (Columbus lost at Chivas 2-1, and Chivas lost at Columbus 2-1). Is that correct?
     
  25. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First tiebreaker is head-to-head points, which would still be tied.

    Second tiebreaker is overall goal difference. Columbus is currently +11 and Chivas is +5. Columbus wins here unless the margins are large in the final games.
     

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