Playing from back is overrated

Discussion in 'Coach' started by NewDadaCoach, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Playing out of the back is overrated. I swear every week there is some top level European club that plays it back, loses the ball and gets scored on (or nearly gets scored on).

    Yet everyone keeps doing it. This is not high school, or college. These are the best players in the world who are getting caught playing it back because of the stupid and overzealous emphasis on playing out of the back.

    If I coach again I will tell my kids to blast it as far away from goal as possible. And that's what Real Madrid should have done yesterday.

    Starting around the 0:20 mark

    If you play it back eventually you will get caught and scored on. It happens to the best in the world and it will happen to you. But if you clear it then you'll 1) not get scored on 2) still have an ok chance of retaining possession - I like the math.

    Now of course there are times to play it back. But play it safe. Only if you have lots of space, and no counter pressure, then play it back. Otherwise... clear. the. damn. ball.
     
  2. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Oh yeah... AND around the 7:00 mark, they play it back again and give up a goal that they didn't have to. Could have just headed it out, or blasted it to timbukto (which is where the ball originated - was basically a clear from Man City). But hey, let's play it back because we're Real Madrid. Twice in one match.
     
  3. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Problem is that Real, maybe I'm wrong, their DNA isn't about playing from the back. Compare it to Man City—their players are hand picked to play that style. Pep has been in that style since he was a teen, he's been coaching that style for 12-20 years At least. He learned under Cruyff.

    Zidane, hasn't always played that style. I'm sure he knows it but he didn't play that style as a pro. His managers didn't play that style. He didn't apprentice in that style. Courtois is NOT the type of GK for that style.

    End of the day, it was two mistakes. At top top level it's about who makes critical mistakes. It can be any mistake. Real had a few chances that could've changed the game.
     
  4. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    To me, playing out of the back is a rejection of a long keeper distribution every time. When the rule changed prohibiting the keepers from picking up a ball passed to them, suddenly teams needed to be able to play out of the back instead of overreliance on killing the play by passing to the keeper who made a long distribution.

    Now we have all kinds of experts who diagram how teams are supposed to "play out of the back".

    I go by my playing experience. As a fullback I expected the first pass to break the opponent's forward line. No preconcieved "patterns". Just simple combination play looking for and exploiting the open space wherever it came.

    There is still a time and place for a long keeper distribution. It keeps the opponent honest--e.g. forces them to leave larger gaps between their lines.
     
  5. stphnsn

    stphnsn Member+

    Jan 30, 2009
    You will be doing them a disservice.

    This isn't kickball. It's soccer. It's a thinking player's game. Rather than rigidly requiring them to blast it or to pass out of the back, you should teach them to read the game and then decide how to play. Teach them to move into space for their teammates so they have the option to play out IF IT's ON. There are always times where it's the best decision to blast it the hell out of there, but that shouldn't be the rule.

    Please don't take this as a personal attack, but if you're going to continue to coach, I highly recommend you take some coaching education, either through USC or USSF. A lot of your posts show a lack of understanding of player development that getting some training might help with.
     
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  6. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    #6 CoachP365, Aug 10, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    >>These are the best players in the world who are getting caught playing it back >>because of the stupid and overzealous emphasis on playing out of the back.

    Here's the thing. It didn't break down because of a technical failing on Varane's part. It looks like early in the move, the LB didn't come back to give the other defender a wide option. Likewise when the ball went to Varane he had no wide option.

    Take the USSF grassroots courses online, then go to the in person class, where you can have the guys who play kick and chase bootball try to ask you questions to guide you to realizing that they just don't want you to scare away the athletic kids from u5-9, so that they can invite them to their expensive club at u10 when travel starts.....and if you want to continue coaching, most of the states require you to have the courses, some places up to the D license.

    Wait, is today "no internal monologue day" again....darn...what I meant to say was
    on twitter, follow GauchosArg, also look for Gauchos Futbol on vimeo. Every year he takes kids that none of the big clubs in upstate NY wants, and gets them playing attractive possession soccer. They aren't technical wizards, they just play simple, within their limitations - body shape, receive correctly, scan before the ball gets to them, simple passes. His style may not work for everyone and might go against some best practices, seems like he has a lot of turnover in roster, but he does exactly what he says he does and puts up copious video evidence of it, which is a welcome change.

    They would not have made the same mistakes RM made - though to be fair, he rarely encounters a team that has organized pressing like ManCity, but he does face his share of teams with fast kids that can run a lot, you know, the American Press....
     
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  7. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I am not a fan of US soccer philosophy; so, frankly, I don't really respect the USSF. Sure it's good to maybe dip into that to learn the rules; but from a player development and a tactics standpoint, I'll probably pass.
    I watch and analyze the best players and best teams in the world. Why would I subscribe to the US style, which is a failure; they cannnot even come close to competing in the world cup. Why would I not follow the German or Brazil method (or pretty much any country besides the US.)
    The US does not allow for players to develop fully; it's over coached and restrictive. Why are there no super stars on the level of Messi? The talent is here. The problem is USSF.

    I know that is a bold thing to say. But that is what I have arrived at from viewing the world soccer scene objectively.

    Will I coach again? maybe not... but I will personally train my son. I study how the best players grew up and the paths they took. I will try to emulate that for my kid.

    As far as blasting it. I agree it is not always the answer. But the thought process I would teach is:

    if you have time and space... then relax... reset... find open man...

    But

    if ball is near our goal and opponent is close = oh sh*t = blast it!

    (just think - if Zidane had taught his players this simple thought process, they wouldn't have lost!)
     
  8. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    @NewDadaCoach Watching competitive senior professional games will only help in the sense that you will understand how the senior game should be played. It won't teach you anything about youth development coaching.

    Most licensed coaches understand team tactics. Most also are experienced players. But being a skilled player does not translate easily into knowing how to teach fundamentals to youth. Fundamentals are general athletic skills, soccer specific skills, and principles of play. With the pressure to win matches, many coaches overemphasize team tactics at an early age at the cost of fundamental training.

    When I surveyed my own coaching knowledge, I decided that I needed additional knowledge in athlete development, mental training, coaching methods, and soccer skill training. I also decided that this was a weakness in most US youth soccer coaches, so I wasn't alone. There is so much to learn besides team tactics. I identified materials in those areas by leading experts and did my homework.
     
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  9. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #9 elessar78, Aug 10, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020
    [QUOTE="NewDadaCoach, post: 38861310, member: 340411"
    (just think - if Zidane had taught his players this simple thought process, they wouldn't have lost!)[/QUOTE]

    that's oversimplified. You think his players don't know to boot the ball? Just like any number of u6—u10 I've coached, we get them to resist that urge.

    BECAUSE while nothing bad happens when you boot it. It's very unlikely anything good will happen either. Trust me, I've watched it play out over years and years: long balls the ball is bouncing, bouncing everywhere, everyone is heading and booting it. Eventually one of the able kids is able to control it near goal and scores. In fact, our first lesson in any part of the pitch, is to not mindlessly kick the ball.

    While it wasn't good enough to win a CL round of 16 match, it was good enough to win la Liga.

    Pro-level and youth aren't the same thing. Playing out of the back isn't a strategy to win, it's a tool to teach. Who gives a rat ******** if they lose some youth league game on a back pass?

    Our rule is the only time you clear the ball is if the goalie is beaten and the ball is about to roll in the goal. Otherwise, all the training is for naught.
     
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  10. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    #10 NewDadaCoach, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    I think they (Zidane's players) feel pressure to not boot it when they in fact should. They feel that booting it is perceived as a "low skill" move, so to feel cool they play it back.

    It's not just this one game/team. I literally have seen it every single week in the Premiere League. Every. Single. Week. I'm not joking. I see it and shake my head in bewilderment.

    I came up with some sayings that will make it easy and fun to remember my rule.

    "if opponent comes near it, best to just clear it!"

    "if the striker can attack, don’t pass it back!"

    "if it's too tight to pass it, don't worry just blast it!"

    Take your pick. Feel free to use! And please pass along to Zidane!
     
  11. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    #11 NewDadaCoach, Aug 12, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2020
    There were various points of fault. The keeper should have cleared it when Sterling was approaching. A keeper should not be trying to play keep-away from one of the best strikers in the world just a few yards in front of his goal. The keeper also had the option to pass to the right mid.
    But he plays it to Varane. This is with 3 Man City forwards circling near the box.
    Then de Jesus presses. Varane should have taken one touch, then either 1) cleared it, or 2) switched field to the left back or left mid.
    He took one touch, then two, then tried for a third. why? one touch and blast it. threat gone. You're really going to try to build from the back from within your own box with 3 hungry forwards circling?
    Plus Varane is tall, Jesus is short and quick and agile - ie he has advantage to pick Varane's pocket.
    This had to be Varane's worst game ever. 2 goals he gave up, cost them the game.
    I personally don't care who won; I just find it interesting - a clear example hubris leading to huge errors.
     
  12. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Bravo. Your kid and players will fit perfectly for US Soccer.
     
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  13. rca2

    rca2 Member+

    Nov 25, 2005
    I will be sure to explain to Zidane the right way to play soccer, the next time I see him.
     
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  14. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There's also some irony, because the team that lost, won their league playing from the back, and the team they lost to plays out from the back (and also won their league with record points last year). The guy who coaches that team also has coached 2 other teams to multiple league and champions league trophies playing from the back.
     
  15. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I don't really follow Real Madrid. I follow EPL and every week I see teams get caught when they play it back. It's not like you either play it out of back or not. You should do it sometimes and don't do it sometimes. It just depends on the situation. All I'm saying it's that there's an overemphasis on it to the point where now every team in the every country (including high school USA) feels they need to do this because everyone wants to be like Barcelona.
     
  16. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    This is why US Soccer has declined. They are trying to play a style that does not fit them, does not play to their strengths.
     
  17. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member+

    Money Grab FC
    Apr 26, 2012
    You realize it's a catch-22? If they don't try it at the youth levels, even when it fails miserably, that style will never fit them? I realize HS won/losses matter somewhat to the administrations, so not a good place for development. But even there, if the HS coach has some sway over JV and the MS programs, lets say 4 years (7th-10th) grade should be time to teach it.

    It's not a matter of technique. You can't just drop 5 technically competent players and 1 technically competent keeper out there and say "play from the back". It has to be trained/choreographed, from the young ages, so that IF they get in a system that wants to play that way when they are older they are familiar with it.
     
  18. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    But why do they need to do that style in the first place?
    I think the problem is deeper. It has to do with culture and geography. We have more space. Most countries have less space, so the kids grow up having to learn more technique. When you have smaller spaces you do more footwork and less running. Think of futsal, how long are the sprints in futsal? Very short if at all. We are nation of runners. We have space so we run. And running can be a weapon in soccer. Unless our kids start playing street ball and futsal I don't think we'll ever get to a point where we have the foot skills as other countries. But also I don't think that means we can't win. Different styles can work and can win. We can focus on physicality and running and crosses and shooting and defense and counter attacking. We don't need to win the possession game to win.
     
  19. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    #19 NewDadaCoach, Aug 18, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2020
    Yet another example of forcing "play it from the back" at the highest levels - the Champions League semi-finals:

    The Leipzig keeper tries to play from the back and holds ball too long, makes bad pass, PSG gets possession and scores.

    See @3:50 mark

    With PSG pressing and essentially shutting down the passing routes (though right back was sorta open), keeper should have just cleared it 50 yards to remove risk.

    "if it's too tight to pass it, don't worry just blast it!"
     
  20. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    oh give it up. First, pros are not your youth team.

    you're missing the 99% of buildups that don't end up in a counter attack goal.

    (just like your views on COVID) you're cherry picking data and are guilty of confirmation bias instead of looking at the massive amounts of data.

    by all means, teach your players to "blast it". They'll be better for it. /s
     
  21. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    #21 NewDadaCoach, Aug 19, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
    I don't believe that playing out of back is bad or anything like that. I'm just saying there is an overzealousness about it which leads to players not properly managing risk. A lot of defense is risk management. A lot of youth (and adults) hear "play it out of back" and they don't really understand when and why to do it. I play a lot with adults and most of them don't get it. It's also about space management and how to manipulate the other team (how to spread them out to create space). But the fact remains that in no case should you be holding the ball really close to your goal while several strikers are near. There is a time to clear it. Manage the risk.

    To believe there is not a lesson to be learned from this game, I mean I think that is willful ignorance. It is a scenario to be studied. Valuable lesson can be learned.
     
  22. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    Listen to the commentator: "What a terrible mistake that is, trying to find little intricate passes like that, against a team as clinical and as sharp as PSG."

    Do you not agree with him?

    Now... yes I actually like to play out of the back much of the time. But first, you need the right players who can do it. And you also have to see who the opponents are that are neaby. Weak players trying to play out of back against high skill players... bad idea 90% of the time. Not worth it.
    It also depends on your downfield options.
     
  23. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Leipzig lost in a CHAMPIONS LEAGUE SEMIFINAL to a team with arguably two of the four best attackers playing right now. They got to the semifinal by playing a certain style which involved building out of the back. In the quarters, they beat one of the best defending teams in the past 30 years by building out of the back. Playing this style, they have finished 3rd in the Bundesliga 2 years running (behind Bayern and Dortmund). So, in the aggregate, NOT booting it long every time there is pressure works for them. Six of 8 teams in this years Quarter finals do not employ "boot it long under pressure" as a tactic.

    Even in the example you show. There's no reason to panic, because there was acres of space for each attacker. The GK just made a bad pass.
     
  24. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    You are misconstruing my premise. I did not say that you should always boot it. Yes playing out of the back is good much of the time. But it depends on the situation. It should not be done always. You seem to think so. Risk management. The overemphasis on playing out of the back leads to wrong decisions; bad risk management.
    Also, you make it sound like playing out of the back is the reason they have done well. No that is not the reason. No team boots it long every time. The reason some do better is that they have bigger budgets and buy better athletes, and better managers, for the most part.
     
  25. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    There is risky play (risky moves, risky passing). And there is conservative play. Generally, the closer you are to your goal, the less risky play you want to do. The further away the more risk tolerance you have.
    But risk is influenced by space, and pressure, and by the quality of the players, so it is somewhat relative.
    But in any case, if you find yourself in an "oh sh*t" situation, I maintain that best to kick it out or clear it and allow your team to reset. You don't always have to play from back.
     

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