Player Card Waving

Discussion in 'Referee' started by HouseHead78, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is there a consensus among refs for how to handle when a player asks for a card to be shown to an opponent?

    Ian Darke, Adrian Healey, Alexi Lalas are debating this on twitter and I thought I'd ask here.

    I think there should be a distinction between asking for a card for an ordinary foul (which is cynical, IMO) vs. a deserving infraction (which is instinctive and can be seen as protecting the team from risk). As a player, I instinctively plea with the ref and maybe even make the card motion if I see one of two things.

    A clear DOGSO
    A clearly violent tackle attempt.

    I've had some refs tell me to back off and others ignore me. I've never been carded for my plea.

    I don't see this as some major scourge within the game, but some fellows disagree. Where do you all come down?
     
  2. CKRef22

    CKRef22 Member

    Oct 10, 2011
    Washington state
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Let the referee decide when to give cards. While you may think a card is deserved, most of the time the referee knows the LOTG better and knows when to give a card that is needed. On the other hand, I don't consider this dissent and have never carded for it, but it is rather annoying. But I'm sure there are other referees that would card for dissent.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The biggest problem with the waving of the card is that it then looks like the player(s) convinced the referee if he actually does award one. It undermines the referees credibility, even though he arrived at the decision on his own.

    What are you trying to accomplish when you wave the card? Even if you're 100% right... the referee has either already made his mind up to give it, in which case see my point above. Or he's made his mind up not to give it, in which case you are visually dissenting and doing nothing but irritating him.

    For me, it's more frustrating when I'm already giving the card, because there's no good way to deal with the player who did the card waving. If you quietly admonish him, it might look like you're in cahoots. If you publicly dress him down or card him for the gesture, you look like you've lost the plot and are trying to over-compensate for the card you just gave. It's annoying.

    When the imaginary card is waved in a situation where I'm not giving one, I will isolate and verbally warn the player there not to do it again. It's always worked and I've never had to actually book someone for it.
     
  4. oldreferee

    oldreferee Member

    May 16, 2011
    Tampa
    There is probably as much variation in this as with any form of dissent.
    When I'm dreaming (as fan, coach, player or ref), our sport has adopted the sporting culutre outlined in this video.

    In reality, soccer refs have to manage THAT game THAT day.
     
  5. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    So what do you do in that situation?
     
  6. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Why not do nothing and see what the ref is going to do?
     
  7. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    Waving the card makes the dissent more public.

    I would have no problem for a player or captain to come up after a hard tackle and ask "what's it gonna be?" but waving their hand in the card gesture is not directed towards me, it's for everyone else.

    So, just as I would consider cautioning loud public dissent, I would consider cautioning the player-ref.
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No set plan/agenda. I think ignore it as much as possible and act like you didn't see it would be my standing operating procedure. If people don't believe you even noticed, it's hard to make the argument you were influenced.
     
  9. Paper.St.Soap.Closed

    Jul 29, 2010
    I always treat this the way I treat minor embellishment of a foul.

    "You know, that was a foul but if you continue to jump like that I may not call it next time."

    For the card waiving:

    "You might be right, but if you keep doing that next time I may not be inclined to agree."

    or for some humor:

    "I'm confused, are you saying he deserves it or you deserve it?"

    Bottom line for me, it's annoying and calls the referee's authority into question. Never mind the fact that it just looks bad all around. If I were in the middle on this game I would quickly and kindly ask that you cease and desist.
     
  10. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 4, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    If it was a "maybe" card, i.e., not 100% misconduct, the conversation usually goes something liek this:

    "I was going to caution him for that, but I can't now because it looks like I'm giving the card because you told me to.

    Knock it off, let me referee or else you may find yourself in the book."
     
  11. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So from the responses, it sounds like this is an annoyance rather than something refs get all up in arms about.

    I definitely see the point about letting the ref make the decisions, but sometimes you see something egregious and your instincts react before your brain. I think there should be some allowance for that.

    For me, it's far less disrespectful than some of the ref-mobbing I see go on TV every weekend, so I was curious why Ian and Adrian were so up in arms about it.
     
  12. whistleblowerusa

    whistleblowerusa BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 25, 2001
    U.S.A.
    There was an instruction given by USSF at least a few years back to caution this type of behavior. For me it is easy to ignore and deal with the foul/misconduct as I see fit. In some games, players ask almost every time they go down.
     
  13. topspot

    topspot Member

    Jul 13, 2009
    I've often seen arguments in this forum about whether something should or should not have been a YC a RC where one of the referee posters taking the more lenient side will state something along the lines of "player/team X didn't/barely protested!" So, it seems to me that many referees here take their cues about whether something was worthy of a YC or RC from player reactions. As long as that is happening, it's not surprising to me that players will continue to react.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm not quite sure, but I think your egg just hatched a chicken. Or maybe it was the other way around.
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. HouseHead78

    HouseHead78 Member+

    Oct 17, 2006
    Austin, TX
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The announcers made that remark about Saha when he was dragged down by a Villa defender trying to head in a Donovan cross. Saying he could have won a penalty if he would have been more demonstrative about the contasct.

    I thought at the time, "well if he made a meal of it he'd get criticism for that too!"
     
  16. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Often seen", "many referees here take their cues" - nice generalizations, not accurate in my opinion.

    As a referee, I don't take a cue from a player as to whether something is worthy of a caution or a send off - I reach my decisions, often in consultation with an A/R, and act on those.

    Players' gestures for cards (similar to poor sideline behavior from the bench) are generally ignored unless it becomes too annoying or blatant - then it's a chat with them to say "stop being foolish", followed by a caution for dissent if it continues.

    When we note whether someone didn't protest a decision, it's usually just confirmation that the player agrees with the decision and it won't be controversial. Don't read causation into this.
     
  17. JoseP

    JoseP Member

    Apr 11, 2002
    I'm curious. Would you, also, consider carding a player who raises his hand hoping for an offside call?
     
  18. ColoradoRef

    ColoradoRef Member

    Jul 10, 2011
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even if MrPerfectNot has overstated the point, it seems it's a bit naive to think that referees do not take cues from players. Of course we do. I know I do. Indeed, how the players react to fouls is often instrumental in determining how a referee reacts. I'll give a simple example to make the point.


    Within any single league, there will be great variety in how different teams react to different fouls. During my state maintenance assessment, I refereed the two most aggressive teams in the league. I promise you there were fouls in the game that I did not caution but would have cautioned had two other teams been playing. Why is that? Because the players on both teams tolerated (even expected) the rough play, with the result being that there was no retaliation and the game remained competitive, fair, and in control. Had two other teams been playing, retaliation would surely have resulted from my failure to caution on the first foul.

    My point is not that I let the players issue me instructions on when to card and when not to card on individual occasions during the game. My only point is that players' expectations matter. They matter in terms of how tight a game is called, in terms of man management (a$# chewing versus cards), etc. And first and foremost, we referee for the players: Their safety and enjoyment, so their justified expectations matter.
     
  19. uniqueconstraint

    Jul 17, 2009
    Indianapolis,Indiana - home of the Indy Eleven!
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, and after the third warning, I did.
     
  20. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fine fine - make me accept a bit of nuance in my overstatement....
     
  21. chwmy

    chwmy Member+

    Feb 27, 2010
    ha! good question, although it is a bit of a stretch from asking for a call (possession or offside) to working the referee once a foul call is made. no, i don't caution such hand raising.

    2009 ussf directive excerpt (my rationale for how i see the card gesture):

    "In deciding, among a range of options, which response will be most effective in
    managing a player who protests against a decision, the following criteria should
    be taken into account:
    • Public
    Are the player’s actions public in nature? How widely can the player’s
    language be heard and/or the gestures be seen? In general, stronger
    measures are needed as the message is spread wider. Consider the volume
    of the comments and who can hear the comments (other players, spectators,
    television)....."
     
  22. timtheref

    timtheref Member

    Aug 23, 2010
    This is also a little different if a coach does this. In high school, any coach asking for a card from me will see one, directed at them. I have zero tolerance for coaches at the youth level to be screaming this kind of stuff. In a USSF youth match I verbally warn the coach on something like this, then he's packing.
     
  23. MOREFFIN

    MOREFFIN Member

    Sep 5, 2008
    Kansas City
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is my favorite approach.
     
  24. constructor

    constructor Member

    Dec 21, 2007
    Out in the sticks
    I had a high school match recently where there was a foul that I had decided as I was blowing the whistle, a card was forthcoming. A nearby opponent (team captain) was screaming for the card. I got the situation sorted, gave the card, did the proper NFHS stuff associated with it. Before allowing a restart, I went over to the captain, stood beside him and the conversation went something like this-

    Me- We have something we need to discuss.
    Kid (annoyed with attitude)- About what?
    Me- Let me tell you what you did just after the foul looks like from my point of view.
    Kid (quiet, still with attitude, but confused)- ok
    Me- When I blow the whistle for a foul, I've already decided what is going to happen. When you start waving your arms around and screaming for a card, it looks to the fans and other players like I'm letting you do my job. If they really start down that road, this match will get really ugly, really quickly. Some refs will make it a point to do the opposite of what you are asking....
    Kid- but that should be a card
    Me- I agree and look it, there was one, but you don't know who the ref might be. Another guy might have changed his mind to avoid that problem just because you're screaming at him. I'm one who will do what is right based on play. You can make my job easier by waiting to see what happens and then asking in a conversational manner, like what we're doing right now, as to why card/no card. Please bear in mind, I will give you a brief explanation, but not a long form discussion and my decisions will only be affected by what the other guys wearing my color jersey have to say. So best path as a player is wait and see.
    Kid (realizing I'm not chewing him out)- Oh, okay, makes sense.

    We went back to the match and things went well. Kid at a later stoppage when one of his teammates was screaming actually told me that, yeah it does look bad from the outside. So I got a couple players on my side for the match, the coaches were people I knew so they were cool and the match proceeded without further incident.

    Sometimes you can talk with the appealing player, sometimes they are trying to play you.

    At another high school match. Kid was diving more than a twitchy U Boat captain. Since it was HS, I really didn't want to card him for simulation. I just told him several times to stay on his feet. At a real foul that caused the ball to go out, he was appealing for the foul and a card. He was close enough so the conversation was not heard by anyone else. I told him that he was diving so much that it was getting to the point where I wasn't sure when a real foul had been committed and that his best course of action was to stay on his feet as he wasn't much help to his team flopping around on the ground. He grinned a bit sheepishly, and said, ok. No further flops from him, I avoid the card, and the kid learns a lesson.

    These methods don't always work, but sometimes a quiet conversation, or sarcasm, can work wonders in putting a stop to the monkey business and gets the match moving smoothly.
     
    1 person likes this.
  25. Errol V

    Errol V Member+

    Mar 30, 2011
    Good stuff, constructor. I think we give up too soon on the instructional side of the job. Some guys weren't given strong gifts in that regard, but sounds as though you have them and are using them on older kids. Well done.
     

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