Placar greatest footballers (1981 & 1999)

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by PuckVanHeel, May 15, 2013.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'm also interested in whether some well-known journalists were consistent in what they responded. Does someone know whether Glanville, Batty, Green, Vernon (as example) had the same/similar response on other occasions?

    Other instances of polls like this are also appreciated.
     
  3. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting finds Puck :thumbsup:.

    As you know, Glanville did do a top 100 (around 1997 I think) as comme posted on the 'Is Platini top ten all time?' thread - at first glance that selection in 1981 does seem pretty consistent with it but I'd need to double-check to see if there are differences - actually the reason comme posted it was because Glanville had placed Matthews ahead of Garrincha then later changed his mind I believe, so it's interesting that in 1981 he seemed undecided between them (seems like he was choosing Garrincha or Matthews for his XI but that does leave only 10 players so I wonder if another name is missing, perhaps Cruyff or perhaps a defender or midfield player...?).

    World Soccer's top 10 in 1999 might have coincided with their Player of the Century poll then (obviously those 10 were all part of their guide list). The final results based on readers votes were slightly different with Maradona and Cruyff above Di Stefano and strikers Van Basten and Eusebio into the top 10 instead of wingers Garrincha and Matthews who were put in the magazine's top 10 as shown by you but placed 20th and 17th respectively in the readers vote.

    As expected there is some national emphasis, but I noticed that although Meazza was placed 5th by Guerin Sportivo in 1999, not many of the Italian journalists included him in their XI in 1981 - of course he was an attacking player in competition with the 4 above him in Guerin Sportivo's top 10 anyway, but the teams do seem fairly attack oriented and with players moved out of position at times anyway. The Uruguayan magazine strikingly had Scarone at number 2, with Nasazzi and Schiaffino also in the top 10!
     
  5. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    And no Cruyff!!
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting that Bobby Charlton is included in a few 1999 top 10's but not the World Soccer one. He is 10th ranked overall as shown. I know that he came 12th in the World Soccer readers vote, behind also Lev Yashin.

    Is it stated that those shown with their numbers of votes mentioned (eg Puskas 23, Bobby Charlton 20) in the 1981 article were the ones making the overall XI? Without counting up the votes myself that seems feasible - there are a wide range of players getting some inclusions in the 70 journalists' selections I noticed.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    PDG1978

    Glanville had him on fourth place behind Pelé, Di Stefano and Maradona. So that he isn't included in his 1981 all star team (with Maradona coming of age in the future) is a bit strange, especially because he thought that Cruijff was in 1977 and 1978 still the #1 player of the world (he wrote a few times in his Sunday Times column).
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/platini-top-ten-all-time.619847/page-10

    Also strange is that three out of four Mundo Deportivo (Barcelona fanboy paper) journalists do not select him in 1981 although I heard from Vegan10 that they took in general a negative/critical stance towards him from the very first day he arrived (and later on too ofc), also in interviews with him. Had something to do with club politics.
    The supposedly 'neutral' Don Balon had him on #2 in 1999, ahead of Maradona, Di Stefano, Kubala and Puskas (Kubala over Puskas - why?).

    Did anyone notice that the Batty guy selected two goalkeepers :D
     
  8. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    I hadnt noticed! I though the German and the Dutch publications were the only ones ranking Cruyff over Maradona...
    Anyways, I dont think Cruyff can be left out of the top5 spots. Not having him in a top10 is criminal.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    David Lacey's team had changed by the end of the century:
    http://www.englandfootballonline.com/TeamHons/HonsAllTimeTmsEng.html
    Not to say that he is contradicting himself alot or he changed his mind much as obviously Baresi and Maldini and understandably Platini too played themsleves into his chosen XI after 1981. Maybe Ocwirk over Neeskens could be a choice based on formation (often all-star XI's don't overly consider this but it seems like his year 2000 all-time XI has a diamond midfield with Ocwirk at the base and Maradona at the tip, wheras he listed Neeskens, Cruyff and Gerson in a midfield 3 in 1981). Djalma Santos is chosen instaed of Vogts at right back in his year 2000 selection though.
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Also Maradona.

    To clarify, in 2000 he was choosing a rest of the world selection not including British players as he did seperate British XI's, so I am comparing his rest of the world XI as of 2000 to his overall XI as of 1981. Quite possibly Banks and Best would still have been in his overall XI (more doubtful for Best maybe due to new inclusions, wheras for Banks he'd have to change his mind to leave him out like he did with Vogts/Djalma Santos).
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Question for you and Lucas Gomes.

    Is there any reasonable explanation why only one Brazilian publication (out of 10) picked Djalma Santos while the same Brazilian player is a default pick for many other nations? That is very odd, with 36 selections he ranks among the best.
     
  12. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
  13. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    That is an absolutely superb find by the way Puck. Fascinating stuff.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks!

    Unfortunately the World Sports one of 1970 doesn't specify it by journalist and country. I think I found/copied the wrong issue. Only have the A team (with votes) and B team (without votes), sadly.
     
  15. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    As i said in another threads, Scarone was seen by most old contemporaries and uruguayan experts as the best Uruguayan player ever.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I remembered you saying that when I saw him listed by that magazine at number 2.
     
  17. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Particularly interesting to be the selections of Pinheiro Cabral.

    He picked Eddie Colmann (of United, killed in the Munich Air Disaster) and Gradim, someone I can't find any information on but who managed Vasco between 1958-60.

    msioux75 any information on Gradim?

    Also interesting was Domingo Janeiro who picked Francisco Olazar (manager of Argentina at the 1930 World Cup), Della Torre (played at that World Cup), Isola (who I've never heard of in goal).

    Three Italians picked Castigliano, who I'd never seen put in that company before.

    The Portuguese appear the most biased. Between them they picked Travassos, Germano, Coluna and Coelho as well as the more understandable Eusebio.
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Roy provided a good profile about Colman not long ago - so I understand he was a creative wing half in a WM system for United, probably playing more to the right side as Edwards was left wing half (he was selected in that XI as a right back it seems which equates slightly more to the old fashinoned wing half position a the 2-3-5 system I think).

    On Gradim, hopefully msioux or someone can provide more but here is a translation of a Polish Wikipedia article about him I think:
    Francisco de Souza Ferreira [edit]






    Jump to: navigation, search





    Gradim




    Name and surname


    Francisco de Souza Ferreira




    Date and place of
    of birth


    June 15, 1908
    Vassouras, Brazil




    Date and place of
    the death of


    12 June 1987
    Rio de Janeiro, Brazil




    The Position Of


    striker




    Career




    Years


    The Club


    (G)




    1931-1933
    1933
    1933-1935
    1936-1947


    Bonsucesso
    Flamengo
    Vasco da Gama
    Santos



    5 (3)




    National team




    Years


    Representation Of




    1932


    Brazil


    1 (0)




    Coaching career




    Years


    Club/national team




    1955-1956
    1957-1959
    1959-1960


    Fluminense
    Vasco da Gama
    Brazil U23



    Francisco de Souza Ferreira, known as Gradim (born June 15, 1908 in Vassouras-– June 12, 1987 in Rio de Janeiro) is a Brazilian footballer who plays as a striker.






    Table of contents
    [Hide] 1 early years
    2 Internatonal career
    3 coaching career
    4 Bibliography
    5 External Link



    Tavriya Simferopol [edit]


    At the time he played career Gradim in Bonsucesso of Rio de Janeiro in the years 1931-1933, Flamengo of Rio de Janeiro in 1933, and Vasco da Gama of Rio de Janeiro in the years 1933-1935. Vasco da Gama of Rio de Janeiro State Championship-Campeonato Carioca in 1934. In the years 1936-1947 he also played for Santos.


    International career [citation needed]


    Brazil national team debut on November 27, the Gradim, 1932 in a 7-2 game against Athletico Andarahy Club. on December 4, 1932 in a 2-1 match against Uruguay, whose stake was the Copa Rio Branco, 1932. A few days later, he appeared in matches with Peñarol and Montevideo, Nacionalem, in which he scored his only national team goal.


    References [edit]


    After retiring from the Gradim was head coach. In the years 1955-1956 led Fluminense of Rio de Janeiro. In the years 1957-1959 he led Vasco da Gama of Rio de Janeiro, with whom he won the Torneio Rio-São Paulo in 1958. In 1959-1960, ran the Olympic Brazilian team in the successful qualifying for the Olympic Games in Rome.


    References [edit]
    Miniencyklopedia Soccer No. 1/2004, roz. History of the Brazilian national team matches, 1914-2004, part 2 (1930-1940), publishing house, 2004, TRUMP ISSN 1644-8189, pp. 78-79.

    Also, http://mamvs.narod.ru/BRAZIL/g/Go/Gradim_Rui_Francisco_de_Souza_Ferreira.htm
    gives an indication of his career.
     
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  19. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you know about his standing?

    Here the NT games
    http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/ital-intres1940.html

    I know that he was on the shortlist for the 'Great Britain versus Rest of the World' game in 1947.
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Not much, just I'd never seen him renowned as an especially good player. Obviously very good, but not an all-timer.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I'm almost finished but back in 1981 there was some big variation in how 'stars' were rated. Some countries had a soft spot for a player while almost totally neglected in other ones.

    That was in the pre-internet age. It seems that the British view of history has prevailed.
     
  22. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I may regret this, but how do you mean?
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The number of times a player is selected aligns with how most modern day (positional) all time lists rate them.
    This doesn't mean I (totally) disagree with the Brits but as example: Di Stefano is funnily more or less overlooked by his own countrymen. Puskas is overlooked by the Germans, Argentinians, Italians and Brazilians (of his 23 selections, 7 are from England).
    George Best is totally ignored (although one Brazilian lists him), who is in modern day lists seen as possibly the best left winger of all-time (and generally put over Gento for example).
    Then also the likes of Ocwirk, who is selected by some Englishmen but not to the same extent by the other European nations.

    That is an interesting feature of this list - it was before the internet and globalization age. Which has from a normative point of view both advantages and disadvantages. An advantage of globalization is that a Spaniard might know more about George Best and say "hey, he was 'better' as Gento [or other name] after all."

    This, the differences in how countries rated players, will become clear when the specification per country is finished. I signal that of all journalists in 1981, the British ones align the most with modern day rankings.

    And why "I may regret this".
     
  24. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    When you say "most" positional lists do you mean?

    I'm only aware (and this probably shows my lack of awareness) of mine, Peru's and Dearman's. One from an English perspective, one from South American and one from Asian, but all three on English language websites.

    The may regret this means I don't want to get into an acrimonious argument about biases.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think you remember how many Argentina fans have said over the years that a number of forwards were considered to be better as Di Stefano (Pedernera etc.).
    I'm not saying that they are right or wrong; or that the British (whoever) are right or wrong but it is interesting that such subtleties are to an extent visible in the lists.

    The various lists that appeared in 1999 (rsssf has a number of them) already took place in the internet age, and I spot a greater overlap/congruence in that respect.

    When the European Cup existed 50 years various attempts were made as well.

    You can also see it as a compliment: of all 1981 nations the British made in modern day eyes the most accurate one (so not a lowish 2 or 1 selections for Puskas like Italy or Germany did).

    I think if you would do a poll today, Best would end much higher and Puskas obviously too. Esp. because in 1981 some journalists selected more than 11 names.
     

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