Pires a cheater??

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by arsenlmc58, Jan 6, 2006.

  1. arsenlmc58

    arsenlmc58 New Member

    Dec 18, 2005
    Alexandria, VA
    There is an interesting article about Paul Jewells (Wigan manager) thoughts on diving.

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=354268&cc=5901

    He says its becoming an accepted part of the game. He also says that people either view it as 'gamesmanship' or 'cheating'. I call it gamesmanship, Ive always said diving is part of the game. I think it takes a smart, clever player to know how to simulate being fouled and if its good enough to fool the ref, than there shouldnt be a huge uproar about it. Of couse you hate it though when it happens to you, f'ing Rooney. But when your own player does it, hes considered clever. Pires isn't a cheater, he's clever "gamesmanshiper."
     
  2. Bluto11

    Bluto11 The sky is falling!

    May 16, 2003
    Chicago, IL
    diving is cheating. It makes me sick when players do it, especially Arsenal ones.
     
  3. splara10

    splara10 New Member

    Aug 18, 2004
    San Diego, CA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have to agree - Witness Rivaldo at the last World Cup or Pires' dive at Portsmouth to keep the unbeaten run going or Rooney's dive to halt it - all of them suck.

    Gamesmanship is just a fancy way of hiding the ball: cheating is cheating. I don't like it when anyone does it, especially when a game turns on a cheat getting away with it.

    That said, I do think there is a difference between a dive and playing for the foul in football. I'm not a lawyer (er, Barrister?), but here's my definition:

    1. Diving is the act of decieving the referee when no actual foul has been committed. There is NO foul in this case.

    2. Playing to the foul is the act of putting oneself in a position to solicit a foul from a defender. In this case, the foul DOES happen.

    Scientific, I know.
     
  4. xdanx

    xdanx Member

    Aug 12, 2004
    New York, NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I was always tought when I played that the ref will not make the call as long as you are fighting to stay on your feet, so consequently there would be many times where I was fouled and still could have continued on, or gone down and gotten the call. So for me there is a fine line between diving and getting the call. Rooney last year was a dive, Pires a lot of times is a dive, Reyes seems to go down with little contact sometimes but normally it is after a lot that he tries to fight through.

    I guess you could call it cheating if they could have kept on, but not me.
     
  5. Miles Brasher

    Miles Brasher Member

    Sep 6, 2004
    Coventry,England
    There is a difference between being fouled and going down to get a free kick when because of the weakness of the foul the player could have stayed on his feet, and diving, when there is no contact at all.
     
  6. a-m-a-n

    a-m-a-n New Member

    Jul 18, 2005
    manchester

    where did you learn soccer??? it has to be played fair i hate diving it makes me sick it is a dumb excuse for players who can't bring out their best. i think diving brings out the worst in all players and kills the essence of the game as well as disapoints fellow team mates!!!
     
  7. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the general sentiment on diving being bad versus not staying up when legitimately fouled being okay.

    For instance, would any of us have faulted Henry if he had gone down in the FA final two years ago when the Soton defender was basically trying to pull his jersey off? I would not have. I didn't mind that he fought through it....but it certainly would've been more advantageous if he had gone down.

    In the good guys finish last irony of things....he was later booked in the same match when the ref thought he was diving.
     
  8. jägermeister

    jägermeister New Member

    May 18, 2004
    Hannover
    Could be an interesting thread if people keep an open mind

    My two cents.

    Jewell said it best. Your guy dives and gets the PK, you shrug, it's OK, and people forget real quick. Oh well. Helped us win and it will be forgotten in history.

    The other guys does it and he is scum and a cheater.

    That simple.

    The main issue is how fifferent parts of the world look at diving. It is a sraple in SAmerica and a place like Italy.
    I remember the shock in Germany when Klinnsy starting diving. Well, it became accepted over time.

    Same thing is happening in England now. There is very little refs can do. The game just moves so fast, and players have become so good at it.

    Only real harsh penalties after the fact will change it. 3 game ban?
    Won't happen.

    Here to stay. Not so much that people want it, it just is accepted, and it's so hard to fight.

    Yes, Pires is one of those divers, but I bet if you listed every team, you would find a player like him on each one.
     
  9. johno

    johno Member+

    Jul 15, 2003
    in the wind
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    This situation is not black and white... its decidedly grey and here's why.

    Does a ref make the right call 100% of the time? No. In fact, quite often bad calls are made, a player gets a penalty when there was no foul, or no penalty is awarded for an obvious handball.

    In a perfect world when a penalty is deserved it would be given, when a foul committed it would also be given, when cards justified, you guessed it, they'd be given. However the fact of the matter is that refs often get it wrong. Most refs would not give a penalty when a player stays on his feet, as if a foul can't occur unless a player is brought down. While I think diving is bad and is cheating, I also find it harder to despise players who may sometimes go down easier when they know they've been fouled or they've beaten their man. After all, the beaten defender knows he's been beaten and then he lunges, sometimes out of luck the ref doesn't see it or doesn't think there was much in it and no call is made, but in my mind when you deny someone the chance to go past you simply because you aren't good enough to stay in front of them you are cheating as well.

    I hate players who "cant take a beat" when you have been skinned just give up, don't chase, but if you do, if you continually foul and can't admit defeat then don't complain when you swing with malice or with little intent on getting the ball and miss the man, only by coincidence but still get called for a foul. That's hypocrisy and bollocks.

    So, 1. people who habitually dive looking for calls are cheaters, people who go down easily sometimes are also cheaters, but not more so than those who foul cynically. In both instances it goes against the spirit of the game.
     
  10. jägermeister

    jägermeister New Member

    May 18, 2004
    Hannover
    Ahh, but's the issue isn't it?

    When millions of pounds are on the line, people's jobs, a club's future, and your career, the "spirit" of the game really doesn't mean all that much. Does it?

    When FIFA can find away to make it harmfull, seriously harmfull, to club and player, it will not change.

    Great for the papers and fans to complain endlessly when you are on the wrong end of it, but boring in the end.

    Spirit has to do with casula football, fun football, this is business.

    Spirit gets you little. Ask Rivaldo? Biggest stage in the world and what was his punishment? Some ridicule in the press and by opposing fans? BFD.

    He's laughing to the WC title and the bank.
     
  11. arsenlmc58

    arsenlmc58 New Member

    Dec 18, 2005
    Alexandria, VA
    I was laughing when I read the Roberto Carlos was describing in an interview before the last world cup that it is part of the game and that he would dive anytime if it would get an advantage and help Brazil win the game. Players are taking a risk now, to dive or not to dive? When they do and dont succeed, they could be booked or ridiculed by everyone, but if they do and win a penalty, they could go on and win the game.
     
  12. michaec

    michaec Member

    Arsenal
    England
    May 24, 2001
    Essex
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Diving is cheating, there are no grey areas. The fact that you may get a penalty or free-kick for diving and not get one when you have been fouled legitimately and they somehow "even themselves out" doesn't make it any less so.

    Good call johno, if refs could see a foul for what it is, even if the player doesn't go to ground, then maybe the players wouldn't go down like a sack of spuds every time they feel the slightest touch. More refs who were previously professional footballers might help in this regard, obviously from the lower leagues because what multi-millionaire former pro is going to want the grief of being a referee?

    I do think we could go a long way to eradicating the practice using video evidence after the fact. Yellow cards could be retrospectively awarded for diving after reviewing the match video. If that turns into a red on top a card the ref awarded in the game then so be it. A few suspensions later and the players would get the message. We already use video evidence for serious fouls/violent conduct and the dubious goals panel (and who really cares about that?), why not use it to get rid of this disgraceful practice?
     
  13. Fun with Acid

    Fun with Acid New Member

    Mar 12, 2004
    Lake Kinkaid
    Sick.
     
  14. Dr. Guinness

    Dr. Guinness New Member

    Jan 5, 2006
    VA
    I would rather see every Arsenal player always try to stay on their feet than for us to get any undeserved advantages. Diving is definitely cheating, but worst of all it cheapens the game of football, it's embarrassing to the club, and it just makes the player look like a big wuss.
     
  15. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    There is a very fine line between gamesmanship and cheating in sport. It really depends on how you personally play the game and how you would like it to be played. What further complicates matters is when you look at things from the perspective of the attacker and the defender. When I have discussed the topic with some players from my local club, I got the following definition from a central defender guilty of that type of play. He stated that gamesmanship is the act of subtle cheating. I would agree to an extend, although that definition does not cover the psychological aspects of gamesmanship. So like I originally said, it all depends on how you view the game, as the two are clearly intertwined. It's not something I think we could all agree on.
     
  16. SF Gooner

    SF Gooner New Member

    Apr 21, 2004
    tri state stunna
    Jeez I dont know why Pires has this tag on him. It's really the only blatant time that I can remember him doing it. I've seen some of our other players do it and it's not tagged with it. Vieira last year in Liverpool, even Reyes against Man Ure on teusday. It's not like Ruud where I can think of many cases.
     
  17. Mr. Bee

    Mr. Bee New Member

    Feb 2, 2005
    Buzzing Around
    Club:
    Wolverhampton Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I blow hot and cold on it... its tough to judge. Rooney's dive against Arsenal last year was one of the ones that I can't fault as much, because the intent was there on Campbell(?)'s part. Rooney took a dive against Arsenal on Tuesday that was embarassing, on the edge of the box, where he was turning his head to the ref as he was falling. Most of CRonaldo's dives are embarassing as well.

    Pires I wouldn't even classify as the worst on Arsenal anymore. That's gotta go to Reyes.
     
  18. Cannon

    Cannon Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Sep 2, 2001
    Washington, DC metro
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Got to agree with this. Diving is cheating. Not a bit of grey area.
    I'd love to find a good way of getting rid of diving but I'd worry about the use of video evidence after the fact. I have seen too many players called divers just because they went down with no contact. The press ignores the fact that player running at full speed can actually trip. With their poor record on getting other aspects of video review correct (think about the dubious goals that are clearly wrongly given/taken away) and the fact that it is very unevenly applied, I'd prefer to let refs deal with it during games.

    Some players will get targeted based on reputation while others get off free. Think about how rarely Chelski players are accused of diving (hello Cole and Robben) or the fact that Mido does it at least once a game with little mention while Pires is still called a diver all the time mainly based on an incident well in the past. No thanks. I'd rather keep it the way it is then give the FA yet another way to unevenly apply the rules after games are over.
     
  19. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I don't know...I guess it all depends on the players involved and intent. Sometimes we see Cesc for example giving freekicks away for "fouling" players as large and strong as Heskey, to be honest if they can't survive alittle muscle from a 18 year old boy they are out of place. Is it cheating...by the letter of the rules no, but to me as a player I would say yes. Every player should do everything in his power to keep on his feet.

    But, to me diving is no different than drawing a foul, to dive you must be presented with a situation or create a situation in which a dive could be mistaken for a foul. In most cases diving is everything drawing a foul is without being touched.

    You should take this all with a grain of salt though since i'm they same dirty midfielder who's "accidentally" run into the opponents bench, and kicked balls at defenders to get a corner kick or thow-in...
     
  20. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a good idea in theory, but it's a slippery slope that we shouldn't start down...

    Diving is cheating.

    Oh, and I hate not having the moral high ground over certain countries and clubs. :mad:
     
  21. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really don't think there is any moral high ground to be had by anyone.....as no one could claim with a straight face that no one on the club they support has ever taken a dive.
     
  22. Mr. Bee

    Mr. Bee New Member

    Feb 2, 2005
    Buzzing Around
    Club:
    Wolverhampton Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am seriously, seriously trying to think of a Fulham dive this season. Andy Cole, Steed Malbranque, Luis Boa Morte (against Arsenal), and Collins John come to mind from last year... but I don't honestly remember a true dive from a current Fulham player this year.
     
  23. Ian Lozada

    Ian Lozada New Member

    May 29, 2001
    The Pick Four Pool
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not our Super Bob... a diver? Never.

    Oh dear, could someone go prop him back up again?
     
  24. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But they have in the past so my point still stands. I can't think of an outright dive by Pires this year (not that he doesn't hit the deck easy after contact) yet Rob is still pilloried for a "dive" from two seasons ago.
     
  25. Mr. Bee

    Mr. Bee New Member

    Feb 2, 2005
    Buzzing Around
    Club:
    Wolverhampton Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yet I could name some dives from the small number of Arsenal games that I've watched this year, whereas I can't from the insane number of FFC games I've seen. Its not exactly a pandemic, it seems to be more prevalent with certain teams (MUFC, Arsenal, Bolton, Chelsea, Spurs even with Davids and Mido). Of course, they're successful, so maybe they're onto something.
     

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