Peru vs CHILE, 13 de octubre en Lima (Clasificatorias 2018) [R]

Discussion in 'Chile: Selecciones Nacionales' started by HeartandSoul, Sep 12, 2015.

  1. Ohiginiano

    Ohiginiano Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    El Teniente Stadium
    Club:
    O Higgins Rancagua
    Para mi lo mas importante era ganar. Cuando se cambio el calendario de las eliminatorias y vi que partiamos contra Brasil y Peru, yo decia: 2 puntos estaba bien. Pero ganamos los 6. Me alegro la capacidad de reaccion de CHile para dar vuelta el resultado, aunque concuerdo con el posteo de arriba: Podriamos haber goleado en el 2do tiempo, haber facil terminado 5-2 en vez de 4-3. Vargas y Sanchez pueden pasar desaparecibidos pero en cualquier momento pueden anotar, quedo demostrado hoy. Valdivia en el segundo tiempo mejoro algo pero sigue jugando muy lento. Vidal estuvo muy bajo en general.
    ALguien sabe si el primer gol de PEru estaba off side o no?
    Creo que Bravo pudo haber hecho algo mas en ese gol y en el de Guerrero.
    Cuando entro Silva me gusto mucho ya que le dio otro aire al mediocampo que estaba siendo superado constantemente. M Gonzalez bien atacando pero en el penal se equivoco ya que le pego un rodillazo a Zambrano totalmente innecesario, merecia una amarilla a mi gusto. PEro no se cansa de correr y luchar.
     
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  2. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    Debo reconocerlo. Antes de jugarse esta doble fecha, yo también creí que se sacaban como mucho 2 puntos.
    Se sacaron 6 de 6.
    Muy bien por parte de este equipo. :thumbsup:
     
  3. posteador

    posteador Member+

    Dec 29, 2006
    Lincoln, UK
    Dicho y hecho, este Peru me recuerda a Chile en la sub20... no tienen la madurez necesaria para estos partidos, con la diferencia de que sus jugadores ya no son nada muchachitos de sub20. Su prensa no ayuda vendiendo la pomada con el 'clasico' que nunca fue.

    Me parece que los dos primeros goles de Peru no eran validos... el resultado final los hace quedar mejor de lo que merecen.

    Aun asi creo que van a jugar mejor contra otras selecciones. No van a estar tan calientes por 'clasicos' y cosas ajenas al futbol.
     
  4. posteador

    posteador Member+

    Dec 29, 2006
    Lincoln, UK
    Una lastima, siempre se farrea oportunidades... es como Guarin. Les gusta mucho disparar de 100 metros. Claro, cuando les sale quedan como reyes, pero nadie habla de los otros 50 tiros que salieron del estadio.
     
  5. chewie4917

    chewie4917 Member

    Sep 10, 2011
    Who else gets tired of this constant, bad officiating? Peru's first goal was a clear offside. Cuevas' expulsion was excessive, to say the least; warnings to both players would have sufficed.

    They scored 2 goals with 10 men, which is unforgivable! Let this happen in Montevideo and see what happens.

    My expectations were high. I expected 6 points. We got 6 points. That's a positive.
     
  6. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    It wasn't excesive.
    It was exactly what the rule book says how an agression has to be sanctioned.
    Direct agressions aren't classified in "slight, moderate or excessive", its only classification is "agression", and so they are sanctioned the same way, always : direct red card
    (don't believe me ?, then ask yourself why Cavani got a direct red card for simply giving Jara a slap on the face on the past Copa America).
     
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  7. Yañez

    Yañez Member+

    Oct 11, 2005
    Santiago, Llolleo
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    My input. We all knew Peru was going to be a very tough rival, especially in Lima, so no surprises there. Guerrero is an awesome player, nothing to say and Farfan always complicates us. As for the game, Peru´s first goal was a clear offside, big mistake by the ref. The penalty was rightly called, nothing to argue there. Cueva´s red card was, as Rick said it, straight from the rule book. There doesn´t have to be blood or an injury for the straight red, aggression is aggression.


    I agree with most of the posters here regarding Valdivia, in my opinion Matias is a lot better at the moment. As for Pipe, I wouldn’t write him off yet, still young and has to learn. The one thing that worries me is the complacency at the end where we assumed we had already won and were walking, until Guerrero´s goal came.

    Great game, Peru has a great team and if they could avoid those little mental mistakes they will complicate a lot of teams. Now with Marcelo Diaz gone versus Colombia, I assume Matias might do the "doble 5" role? Hopefully he does as he has done it a few times in Fiore with great results.
     
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  8. chewie4917

    chewie4917 Member

    Sep 10, 2011
    I get what you're saying.

    However, the main problem is not the rulebook, but the interpretation of the rules. And, the interpretation of the rules can be improved with technology. Get a second referee in front of a computer; let him see the video replay and communicate back to referee #1 via headset. Easy. More time is wasted in players feigning injury.

    The Cavani incident with Jara is an example as to why referees are getting calls wrong. Cavani’s little ‘finger flick’ was not aggression. There are plenty of examples in the game where aggression is evident; the Cavani ‘love flick’ is not one of them.

    Now, if one was to refer to the Cavani incident with the linesman earlier in the game – where, after fouling Vidal, he chest-bumps the linesman – absolutely; that is aggression by Cavani and, if anything, more deserving of a red card than the ‘love flick’ because he used his size and hyper-machismo to intimidate an official.

    Compare Zambrano’s red card at the Copa America; deserved because intention and aggression were evident in his hit from behind. The Fucile expulsion at the Copa America was also justified for the same reasons mentioned above; pre-meditated and violent.

    There needs to be more done to compare the severity of issues. Currently, there is little consideration of (1) context, (2) point of view and (3) severity of incident. The Cuevas expulsion lacked these factors.

    Laws are pointless if they are not enforced with both pragmatism and reason.
     
  9. chewie4917

    chewie4917 Member

    Sep 10, 2011
    I concur with most of your thoughts, except the point on Cuevas. There are degrees or levels of aggression. I don't think that it's right to take such an absolutist view here. Cuevas was cheeky and impudent, but aggressive? There was equal, if not more, aggression in Valdivia's tackle that led to his reaction. I've seen more aggressive and intentional actions receive nothing but warnings in world cup finals.

    I say that also because I wanted to see what we could do in a hostile environment vs. 11. We were robbed of the chance to see that, and will have to wait for other rounds.
     
  10. MetroChile

    MetroChile Member+

    Jan 13, 2001
    NJ; Valpo.
    Club:
    Santiago Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    Gran triunfo de Chile!
     
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  11. MetroChile

    MetroChile Member+

    Jan 13, 2001
    NJ; Valpo.
    Club:
    Santiago Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    Perú 3 - 4Chile

    Goles: 7' y 44' Alexis Sánchez (Chi); 10' y 35' Jefferson Farfán (Per); 42' y 49' Eduardo Vargas (Chi); 90+2' Paolo Guerrero (Per).

    Torneo: Clasificatorias Sudamericanas | Rusia 2018 | Fecha 2

    Estadio: Nacional | Lima | Perú

    Árbitro: Néstor Pitana (Argentina)
    Perú Pedro Gallese; Luis Advíncula, Carlos Zambrano, Carlos Ascués y Jair Céspedes; Josepmir Ballón y Carlos Lobatón; André Carrillo (44' Yordy Reyna [73' Joel Sánchez]), Jefferson Farfán y Christian Cueva; Paolo Guerrero.

    Expulsado: 23' Christian Cueva. DT: Ricardo Gareca

    Chile Claudio Bravo; Mauricio Isla, Gary Medel, Gonzalo Jara y Eugenio Mena; Arturo Vidal (65' Felipe Gutiérrez), Marcelo Díaz (54' Francisco Silva) y Jorge Valdivia; Alexis Sánchez, Eduardo Vargas (81' Fabián Orellana) y Mark González. DT: Jorge Sampaoli

    http://www.prensafutbol.cl/79368-peru-chile-fecha-2-clasificatorias/
     
  12. BMxJoga

    BMxJoga Member

    Feb 27, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Peru
    Felicitacions ganaron bien. No se si la roja a Cueva era excesiva o no pero ya cansa de jugadores que no se pueden comportar. Que jugador es Alexis la csm, menos mal que es del Arsenal. Cada vez que jugamos (Sea clasico o no para ustedes) suelen ser partidos atractivos por que los dos queremos atacar, y ni mencionar lo caliente que se pone. Suerte para ustedes, yo no odio a Chile (si era mas pendejo me haria un tatuaje de Victor Jara). Mas bien, si Chile le gana a Colombia creo que nos favorece eso, yo no veo tan bueno a Colombia y por ahi les podemos superar en la tabla. Saludos.
     
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  13. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    #88 Rickdog, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
    It seems you are not really getting it.
    A direct agression leaves no room for interpretation.

    As up to now, to act out as if you get injured over a foul, that really happened, is part of the game and is not sanctioned in any way. Smart players always exagerate some situations, so they do get called.
    Only if you fake out something that hasn't happened gets sanctioned, as it is an anti sportsmanship atitude, which is clearly written about in the rule book of the game.

    About the possibility to use an extra referee watching video images for doubtful calls with a headset, might seem to be a good idea, although it may turn out to be horrible for the evolution of the game, as we know it, because it is fact that lots of plays even with the use of video recordings, don't come cristal clear after watching them many times. Sometimes even more doubts arise about any call. So in my case, I believe that if ever they get to this point, whatever comes out of it, must be kept in total secrecy about how referee's decide to make the call.

    Cavani's and Jara's "finger incident" is a direct agression, and Jara could have got the red card over it. He didn't get it, because none of the referee's saw it. Same as the chest bump over the linesman, which according to the main referee, he didn't see that action and the linesman didn't report it (Cavani got away with this one, as he perfectly could've got the red card for that action, lots before the whole finger incident happened).

    Sometimes the referee's can act as they didn't see anything, and lots of situations which should get direct red cards, simply pass as if nothing happened. But in the case of Cuevas's red card, he did it right in front of the referee's face at no more than 20 feet away from him. Cuevas, the dumm ass hole, left no options to the referee.
    What do you want the referee to put in his report ?, that he didn't see anything, when everybody knows that there will be camera's all over the place. If he ever says anything like that, he wouldn't be the judge of any other match ever, for the rest of his career.
    As no matter how much he doesn't want to call it, he has to do so, as it is his job.

    Zambrano got the direct red card not for a direct agression. He got it for the excessive unnecessary use of force in a play that ends in a foul over another player. In this case it is an indirect agression (over the dispute of the ball), in which case the judge has the last word, if he gets the direct red or if he decides to give a yellow card instead. The referee took the first option, as Zambrano already had a yellow card together with the fact that he already had received a warning over his violent atitude in a previous play, where the referee decided to save his ass by not showing him the second yellow, for what that would have meant. This time he used a direct red card.
    Same as for the case of Fucile.

    Nope, I disagree with your opinion
    An agression without anything at play, is a useless agression only meant to produce harm on someone else.

    No matter how little they can be, they should be erradicated from the game for good (this is my opinion) and sanctioned with the worst possible punishment for whom decides to use them. For a match that is still being played, the direct red card, comes handy.
     
  14. toepunt

    toepunt Member

    Aug 24, 2003
    North America
    Soccer has turned into a contact sport which is not. The officiating by allowing contact to permeate the game without severe curtailment only result is an escalating of contact with the intention to win balls, push, grab and trip players in the process. In refereeing training and courses it is accepted that contact does exist in games and much of it is to be considered trifling and tolerated. The referees then become the sole judges of degrees of aggression to administer sanctions. The more competitive a game is the more "contact" exists. Should the letter of the laws of the game apply one will end up with many players sent off and the game reduced to a handful of players left and possibly the game suspended when one or both teams end up with less than 7 players. Aggression either physical or verbal towards players and officials equally needs to be sanctioned more severely than it is at present. Many times it is said that escalation and bad calls are the responsibility of officials it may be true in some cases, but my contention is that is the training of referees that needs to be improved. As players training progresses nowadays the referees training is falling behind.
     
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  15. Yañez

    Yañez Member+

    Oct 11, 2005
    Santiago, Llolleo
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    #90 Yañez, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
    Gracias por las buenas palabras. Si en algo ayuda, yo quiero que Perú vaya al mundial y que Guerrero se retire en la U...de Chile. Sin duda van a retomar porque mal no han jugado,
     
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  16. chewie4917

    chewie4917 Member

    Sep 10, 2011
    No; I understand the rules as they stand. And, as they are right now, I consider some to be obsolete. Laws should be respected, but they are not above critical inquiry. The problem right now is that FIFA has no leadership and direction – how many members have been suspended, banned, voted out or submitted to investigation? No formal inquests into the laws of the game. No change. No progress.

    The aggression argument is dead weight. As a rule, it lacks gravitas because it is ineptly enforced. If FIFA wants to continue to see the matter in absolute, black-and-white terms, and treat every ‘love touch’ as deserving of an expulsion, then it has to ensure that it applies to every player on the field. Introduce the measures to hold every player accountable.

    That is not the case, right now. Some incidents are spotted; others are not. Calls are handled discriminately and incompetently.

    For the record, I think that it is insulting to many fans that the words aggression and annoyance are used synonymously. FIFA is out of touch with reality, and that is why football remains the most vexed sport in the world.
     
  17. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    The rules of the game is not on the competence of FIFA to aprove or reprove them (they can think whatever they want to think about them. They don't decide anything here).

    They stand as they are, as how the IFAB (International Football Asociation Board), dictates them to be. Only they decide if they want to make changes to it. Since international football begun, they've made lots of changes to it.
    But the essence of the game remains the same, as how it was created from the beginings.
    So simply said, this issue is ruled at the United Kingdom, as they invented the game.
    ;)
     
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  18. Yañez

    Yañez Member+

    Oct 11, 2005
    Santiago, Llolleo
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    #93 Yañez, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
    Bueno, a Schiappacasse lo bañaron en escupitajos....No es bueno generalizar, más aun conociendo a grandes y educados hinchas peruanos para la Copa América, pero eso simplemente no se hace.
     
  19. HeartandSoul

    HeartandSoul Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2007
    The Garden State
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
  20. Ohiginiano

    Ohiginiano Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    El Teniente Stadium
    Club:
    O Higgins Rancagua
    En mi opinion era amarilla para Cueva no mas que eso. Pero no tiene para que reaccionar asi, perdio la cabeza tontamente. Y el penal cobrado a favor de Peru, estaba bien cobrado. M. Gonzalez le pego un "rodillazo" a Zambrano. Hasta diria que era para amarilla.
     
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  21. posteador

    posteador Member+

    Dec 29, 2006
    Lincoln, UK
    #96 posteador, Oct 14, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
    Never understood the pessimism in this forum. I mean, we are by no means at our best but Brazil is starting a new process almost from rock bottom and Peru is not that far better either. There are a lot of new managers in S.America at the moment. Chile is one of the few who have had a more-or-less constant line of work and we haven't lost any players since the World Cup other than Aranguiz.

    It was the same before Copa America when everyone was going a bit crazy for unconvincing performances in a meaningless friendly against Bolivia when the Chilean players were very clearly not playing at full intensity. I mean I didn't see us winning it to be honest, but I didn't doubt we would go deep. Chile ended up picking steam as it went along, like champions do. You gotta take into account your opponents form as well... Wouldn't surprise me if we beat Colombia in Santiago either as they remain unconvincing. Good chance to experiment without Diaz who has been a bit of a mixed bag lately. Hell, maybe we discover an even better alternative!

    We should take advantage of this start because it ain't going to last. Argentina and Brazil are going to find some form yes or yes. Peru is going to be tougher as the qualies go on, good thing we got them out of the way early. Same with Colombia.

    I think Uruguay might stop our run. Tienen sangre en el ojo, but if we are smart, we can use it against them in the same way we used Peruvian desperation against themselves. Uruguayans said they are going to give us some back, particularly Jara. There are red card opportunities here.

    Hate to be the Machiavellian here, but I see this as an opportunity if we manage to keep our cool. Even better if we manage to score early like against Peru.

    Then again, those matches are a long way away at the moment and we could get more injuries before then. Fingers crossed.

    If we play our cards right we could have an historic start, because many of the opponents we got early are going to get a lot better. Brazil will get Neymar and Firminho back, Peru will get calmer and better, Uruguay will get Suarez back right after we play them, Colombia will eventually find their form again (too many good players to miss out), etc... which means those teams are going to take points from other teams and against each other, which would in turn help us get further away, while we play Bolivia and Venezuela who are weaker than last time around.

    I think the worse that could happen to us right now is... wait... nope I won't jinx it this time! :D
     
  22. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    That's why I thought what I thought before playing these 2 games (in any case, I thought we were going to get draws in both of them).
    Aranguiz's performance always appears to be behind the scenes, but he was a big thing for Chile last Copa America, as he is whom made our midfield work up to perfection. When he got injured and we knew that his recovery will take for a very long time, I thought that Chile was doomed for at least the 4 first match days of these qualifiers, but now I'm really happy to see that the rest of the crew has managed quite well to overcome his forced absence.

    We must recognize though, that we also got a lot help from luck. First confronting a very messed up Brazil which still can't deliver as they use to do it in the past (they have a very strong Neymar dependency, and as he wasn't here, they failed continuedly in their attempts to do some harm on us), and afterwards against Peru, where we got the help coming from someone we never expected : one of their own players who childly got himself expelled, facilitating the job of our players in that match (once again against Peru, when it was 11 v. 11 they were over us, and only lost it, with the one man down disadvantage).
    We were pretty lucky to have luck on our side in these 2 first match days.:cool:

    I hope you are right regarding them, but it is also true that without Rodriguez and Cuadrado they suffer a huge blow against their chances (once again luck will be on our side on this one):thumbsup:

    Unfortunately, we agree. Montevideo might be, maybe the toughest obstacle for our team to get a perfect 12 pts out of 12 possible points, this year.
    Despite their missing players, they seem to be playing as if they were complete (only Suarez will not be able to play against us, but everybody else is playing at top level).
    Against Uruguay there is no room for mistakes. If we don't do them, we can perfectly get a draw from them, although if we do manage to not make them, we can still lose against them. They sure must be the toughest opponent at present times.:cautious:
     
  23. michaelwo

    michaelwo Member

    Sep 23, 2013
    Club:
    CD Huachipato
    De vez en cuando entro a este foro porque saben del equipo, pero pucha Rickdog ... .
     
  24. Rickdog

    Rickdog Member+

    Jun 16, 2010
    Santiago, Chile
    Club:
    CD Colo Colo
    Nat'l Team:
    Chile
    ¿ pucha qué ?
    o_O
     
  25. michaelwo

    michaelwo Member

    Sep 23, 2013
    Club:
    CD Huachipato
    Tu comentario a las 12:48 am. Estaba leyendo la pagina 3 -- pensando que era la ultima y no me di cuenta que tu comentario ya estaba aniejo. Pero igual me pareció feo. En general I follow you porque sabes.
     

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