Perspectives on the 2019 WWC (that may be overlooked)

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by thegamesthatrate, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Some items to take away that are not being discussed.

    First, the USWNT has long transcended partisan divides. That was what made the team popular initially. It seems that some of the ads and post-game commentary instead want to delve into partisan divides. That is a mistake. This team represents the country, not just those who vote a certain way or espouse certain views.

    Second, what continues to be overlooked in this cycle (and the last cycle) but was not overlooked in '99, yet still remains true today, is that this team is popular because men follow it. The genius of the '91 and '99 legends was their ability to get men to watch their sport (and several pans of crowds and examination of demographic data will show that this is a team that is more backed by men than women). That, by the way, is something that Billie Jean King (no flag-waver for male chauvinism) once said would be the sign of true arrival of a women's sports team - that men follow it passionately.

    Indeed, for a woman on the USWNT to inspire a girl to want to be like her is no big deal. Inspiring a 12-year old boy to emulate a USWNT player's work ethic is a big deal.

    Third, the rest of the world is investing in this sport. Remaining the top team will be really hard, and likely our best players are going to play their club ball in Europe for the next decade. This is because women's leagues in this country market women's club soccer as if oblivious to the realities of First and Second above, ensuring that their market consists almost entirely of 12-year old girls. The big question, then, is will the top European clubs' women's teams' games be telecast in the US? Who is asking that question?

    Fourth, what were the TV ratings for today's game? Did the audience surpass that for the '15 final, the most widely watched soccer game (not just women's soccer game) in US history? Did the worldwide audience surpass '99? Before you reflexively say yes, remember that over 100 million Chinese watched the '99 final. I doubt that China had those kinds of numbers for today's game.

    These are the questions one must ask to determine the true lasting impact of this WWC and final.
    jnielsen repped this.
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    If the views are racist, sexist, and homophobic the country needs to Change, not the team.
    ytrs, Bob Lamm, threemileallan and 4 others repped this.
  3. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Even before that final, the TV audience blew away previous numbers, that’s why Infantino says FIFA will double the prize pool next cup.

    As to those 100 million Chinese who watched the 1999 final, they weren’t so much the consumer audience the sponsors look for, back then. It was a different time. This cup drew record audiences in consumer markets.
    McSkillz, sitruc and jackiesdad repped this.
  4. jackiesdad

    jackiesdad Member

    Apr 13, 2008
    So please tell me... since you're all about not catering to "partisan divides"... y'know the recent July 4th celebration in DC funded by ALL of our tax dollars? How do you feel about the White House, (which "represents the country, not just those who vote a certain way or espouse certain views") giving choice tickets to the RNC to distribute? I assume that you have logged onto other websites bemoaning the partisan nature of that event?
    taosjohn, ytrs, Bob Lamm and 2 others repped this.
  5. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    The sanctimonious tone of the above post is exactly what has irked me about this year's WWC. It is an incantation meant to deflect from real analysis. It is also meant to suggest that if I do not subscribe to whatever current political views to which the most outspoken members of the team subscribe, then somehow I am flawed as a human being. Metaphorically, I spit on that attitude.

    First of all, racism is not an issue really at the fore when it comes to the USWNT.

    Second, for nearly two decades millions of fans (more men than women) have followed this team. And, remember that the mantra of this team from its early days has been, "come watch us play once. We'll make it worth your while." Doing so was based on playing winning entertaining soccer. That is, frankly, as a sports fan, the only reason for a team to be worth following. It continues to be the basic reason for watching. Put differently, I don't need to watch this team play in order to prove I am not appropriately an "@metoo" target.

    Third, criticizing the juvenile choice of Rapinoe as Golden Ball winner does not make one homophobic. Rapinoe, after all, is hardly the first athlete to win a finals MVP that she did not deserve. Tom Brady and Eli Manning each have Super Bowl MVPs they should not have won. In addition, one need not slavishly embrace Rapinoe's off-field antics in order to prove lack of "homophobia". Again, metaphorically, I spit on any notion to the contrary, and I resent anyone who seeks to tar me with epithets because I have different approaches to analyzing what I saw on the field.

    Members of this team are as free as anyone else to try to persuade others to adopt their outlooks on life. But they are no more entitled to a guarantee of success in that than anyone else. If they want to push for more money to be paid to them, they have every right to muster whatever legal and psychological ammunition they can. Those who think the members of the USWNT have a reasonable potential argument that they should be paid more than members of the USMNT because they generate more revenue (assuming they can prove it) but think that their argument that they do the same work as the men's team and therefore they should be paid equally is flawed do not have to change their outlook to avoid being "branded" as sexist, racist and/or homophobic.
  6. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    The White House is not the USWNT. And whatever views I hold about the White House have nothing to do with women's soccer in America. Nor do I choose to express any views about the White House here. The fact that we both enjoy women's soccer does not require me to affirm your world view or express an opinion on a subject that may be galling to you but is not one I have chosen to waste an iota of time pondering.
  7. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    As I awakened this morning, I tried to put my finger on what irks me about the feel of this year's WWC that has been different from other years.

    It's not the ostentation of the celebrations by the players. Pantomiming the holding of a cup of tea or raising one's arms in celebration is not, in fact, that ostentatious. My issue with Alex Morgan is not how she celebrates but that she has scored too rarely after the Thailand game to celebrate.

    An exception might be to the celebrations of the late goals against Thailand. There is an ethos in the current king of American sports articulated by the greatest wide receiver ever to play the game that in celebrating a touchdown "act like you've been there before." Now, in fairness to the USWNT, they are not bound by that adage. If they want to act like they have not been there before, that is their prerogative. But is scoring the 11th goal against a haplessly underwhelming opponent something that really deserves a celebration like, say, scoring the opening goal in a WWC final?

    This leads me to conclude that the celebrations of the Thailand goals (and probably Morgan's tea salute) may well have been deliberately calculated for the purpose of generating social media buzz. Personally, I don't care for it, but that is not a reason for opprobrium directed towards them, either. Just don't get on my case as "sexist" when I refuse to be manipulated.

    I would much rather see comment on the celebration, say, of Lavelle, who, while scoring the biggest goal of her life, was turned around and could not actually see it go in, yet managed to exult. Now THAT was a celebration worthy of discussion - particularly how she managed to maintain that awareness as she was spun around by a combination of her defender and the sheer force of the shot she unleashed.
  8. jackiesdad

    jackiesdad Member

    Apr 13, 2008
    I just wonder what possessed you to think that anyone here cared about your narrow and misogynistic views. Because I have a news flash for you: You should keep them to yourself.
    ytrs, Bob Lamm and McSkillz repped this.
  9. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    The fact that you deign to assume that because I do not share your views that therefore I have narrow or misogynistic views is precisely the flawed approach to dialogue that prompted me to write what I did.
  10. sitruc

    sitruc Member+

    Jul 25, 2006
    Show your work.
    Auriaprottu repped this.
  11. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Real Madrid
    I like reading woso international scene than most; from what I gather from those posters(who are now from all the loosing teams) is

    good job lets make the the more important business of broso
    (well,if not in exactly those words, the feeling is there)

    that there's still criticsm of Jill Ellis despite two dominating WC performances, just shows how seriously or high standard we set for ourselves in woso

    or Dutch poster's comments, well our girls grow up playing with boys, but what an interesting concept maybe our girls(when growing up) can have their own league(so apparently no rec or select girls teams to join in Holland/ we're definatley way advanced at this stage)

    even the NWSL proved to be the best league in the world as it had by far the most players at the WC(73 domestic & internaiotnal players)

    though we proved to be the best, guess we can improve our selves even better,. I've been a critique of Ellis cuz I feel there so many more players that making the USWNT(considering the lack of good pay anywhere else) as so many really good talent that don't make the NT, retire in their prime. ut I was shot down by this that it's the USSF allocation system that only allows a certain amount to pick up

    it be nice, but we can't force the public to watch the very weak TV ratings & attended NWSL games(compared th the 70K crowd that went to Atlanta U/Red Bulls game yesterday
  12. #12 feyenoordsoccerfan, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
    In physical strength there's no difference between boys and girls till about 12-13. So there's really no need to separate them from boys.
    Women/girls soccer is the fastest growing sport in the Netherlands after the 2017 run of the Orange Lionesses, which made it necessary for the KNVB and amateur clubs to facilitate it like boys/men soccer.
    This omni sportsclub Kampong (Malayan for Fenced Turf) with over 5000 members has set up a structure for girls and women soccer. Use google translate if interested.

    Dunno where the impression originated from that we're virgins in women soccer, because that's not the case.
    We just donot use the college system, as that is non existent over here. Education is rather cheap to attend so you can match your brains with the education for it without the need of scholarships via sports in colleges. Sport in the Netherlands is a communal thing done via all generations membership clubs organised like foundations, so no pay to play, but modest membership fees.
    The members run the club.
    Girls now go through a similar development track as our boys and when good enough go into the selections of one of the Women Eredivisie clubs.
    Feyenoord hasnot got a woman Eredivisie team yet and therefore has launched a development track to get a team ready in two years.

    In fact the way we're going for women/girls soccer is the way we do it for our male players. Up till a certain age there's no need for separate tracks and girls in fact profit from the decades of experience with development of boys.
    After that the separation into pure recreational women play and professional development for women takes place.

    Just to mention the rise of women soccer is the fact that the KNVB is in steps implementing equal pay for female national team players by 2023 with their male colleagues.
    jnielsen repped this.
  13. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Do players not make the team because they are black? Do fans not root for Dunn because she is black? There may be issues about black children's opportunities to participate in soccer in America, but that is not an issue particularly of focus for the USWNT.
  14. McSkillz

    McSkillz Member+

    United States
    Nov 22, 2014
    Los Angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Might want to blame Donald Trump for the political nature of this WWC
    ytrs, Bob Lamm, Dundalk24 and 2 others repped this.
  15. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    I'll leave others to sort out and apportion the blame, and I don't intend to level opprobrium for those who wish to try do to so.

    For decades plenty of people with the widest range of political views have rooted for the USWNT because they play great soccer. I merely seek to avoid those with different outlooks on certain issues but who cheer for the USWNT becoming branded outcasts or heretics. My sense is that those who built what the USWNT is were not "small-tenters."
  16. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Real Madrid
    I got to use the Dutch as comparison since they've prove twice now their Europe's best team. But I've written so many articles & player bio's from the other top countries like England, Germany, France & Australia that most of their current NT's came up playing on boys. You could say playing most of their youth with boys might of made them better players. But it reminds over here of American Football where their almost nothing for girls in their youth but join a local boys team. Now there could all girls football leagues in this country(maybe in a large metro area) but than it's gets clobbered in high school which also recognizes boys team(but which is where football emerges s our national sport) & while a girl is allowed to join a boys team, only about a quarter of one percent due make up high shcool football

    Hence, a key ingredient & vastly underrated reason for US success is that due to starting all girls soccer from about u6 & up/ you can find in any town USA(or about 50K population).So maybe not as strong quality as boys/male soccer, but it's made the women's game highly popular to a point that somehting like 3 million active players per year(from youth till adult).

    So while it's great that Holland finally starting all girls soccer leagues at an early age, you, along with the rest of the world will find yourselfs over 20 years behind(when the woso craze started to shape up over here)
  17. #17 feyenoordsoccerfan, Jul 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
    In another thread I posted this as an answer to the "they're bigger country than us, so they will be better" reasoning.

    "Those numbers are interesting, but in my eyes irrelevant. You only can select 23? players for a tournement and put on the pitch 11, aside from subs.
    So with increasing importance of the CL for women football, raising the pressure levels to play under and the need to improve as a player to stay competitive in that tournement, the rising level of club competitions in England, Germany, France all add to up the level of the quality players. So although individual countries may have lagging numbers in total players, the quality of those players that matter are going up too.
    It's as simple as that. Make sure your system is excellent in sifting out true talents, make sure they're in a development trajectum to extract that talent and turn it into class, give that talent a stage to get battle hardened using that talent and you're ready to take on the world.

    That's the reason why we Dutch are for decades a constant force in the male soccer world despite our limited population."

    That same MO got us joining the top of the women pyramid within 5 years and is going to keep us there. Simply because we're an organised bunch with a nation wide supported philosophy on football as to how it should be played. This sets us apart as a soccer nation and is the source of our presence on the top floor of male soccer and the source of our rise to it in women soccer.
    It's this cultural football heritage that other small/medium sized nations lack to overcome the numbers disadvantage and thus not the constant factor in soccer like the Orange teams.

    Remember how everybody had a good laugh after we failed two consecutive tournements and were written off to the scrapheap of history? We even were written off to be relegated in the UEFA Nations League with 2014 and 2018 World Champions in the group. We started off with beating fresh European Champions Portugal 3-0 in a friendly and ended on top of that NL group with Germany relegated. Since the 1960ies we have been a force in football despite our low number of people. There's a reason for that and that's what I described in the blue part. That same thing is going to do a similar job to our women soccer.

    The USA has that engrained women soccer culture, which will produce top quality players to keep the USA a top contender in the WC and Olympics. Simply because of the high quality competion and those numbers to fish in.
    But the systems in use in male soccer in Europe are being used/implemented now in women/girls soccer and it's unlikely that it's not going to pay off.
    With a rising competitive club environment in England, Germany, France and Spain the fitness advantage for the US women will diminish. The Dutch Women Eredivisie isnot much of a challenge for players, but our best are sought after abroad and will benefit from the rising competitiveness in those leagues and the Women CL with higher fitness and stamina.

    Ellis didnot make a futile remark about Europe catching up.
  18. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Real Madrid
    keep in mind, that Dutch success didn't happen yesterday, they made it to the semis of the 2009 Euro Championship. small/big pops still don't seem to be a major factor, Sweden(10 mil) & Norway(5 mil) were there for 1991 & still prove to be major powers. If anything, big nations have falling to the wayside abit(China, Russia, Brazil Japan, Germany, France).

    Has the CL helped? most of Lyon's either domestic or international players had a poor tournament(similar as well at the Euro 2017). The two big German clubs are destroying the rest of the Bundesliga by stealing the best players from others. . Now the bigwig English & Spanish clubs are doing the same, perhaps even worse, as apparently the Dutch GK(golden glove of the WC) wasn't even good enough for Arsenal(not to give her another contract.

    perhaps the biggest mistake made was thinking that works for mens soccer will work in woso, it simply didn't!
  19. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Sweden bunkered and countered against the USWNT in 2016 and beat them. JE then spent three years coming up with tactics and personnel to defeat a bunkered opponent. Then in the WC the draw was dumb and we actually didn't play a bunkered opponent until the Final. Sweden didn't even try and duplicate their game plan and sent out a B team and played open.

    The draw we got was "harder" than most, but France and England played straight up. In some ways, playing good teams in an open game is easier for the USWNT than playing average teams that bunkered. Even the opponent in the Final is not one that has probably bunkered against superior opponents, as they have a good amount of talent for their region.

    In a sense then, the dominance shown by the USWNT in this tournament is actually a product of other teams getting better and trying to compete.
  20. First of all the women leagues in Europe of the countries with modest populations like Sweden, Norway and Denmark were better than the rest of Europe, hence their Nat. teams were succesfull too. However in that time frame up till 2015 the USA women competition in quality and in competitiveness was on top of the mountain and the rest in the valley. The Dutch werenot even seen at all.
    I donot know why in England, Germany and France the women league made the jump forwards in professionalism (=taken seriously and funded properly) which was noticeable in their national teams too. The plus side of that development was the top clubs needed top players and our national team players made the jump from our low standard women league to those pro clubs and into the CL competition.
    You ask if the CL has helped? I did put in the Dutch forum the notion on the table that our players came from a low standard environment in pressure/endurance/speed into one that in every aspect was several levels higher. The adaptation to that intensity hasnot been possible in one season and especially the players that went into the CL final of our team simply werenot recouvered from that assault on their physical possibilities. The transition from a leisure like league into a domain with several competitions to play in at top level was too much to stomach in one season. Next year in the Olympics I expect progress will have been made with this experience in the bag.

    The biggest mistake you mention isnot a biggest mistake. It catapulted the Dutch in 5 years from nobodies into European champions and challenger of the USA in the WC final. This result in 5 years time is impossible without the approach in the Netherlands I described. Without it we simply donot exist as a soccer nation on the Women world stage.
    For a Yank it may be hard to understand, but the system that makes the US women flourish is unique to the USA and non existent in Europe, especially in the Netherlands. Simply as I already posted for kids there's no such thing needed as a scholarship via a sport to get the education you want. Education is cheap and accessible for everybody. From college like institutions up to university. Sport is a club matter over here and compared to the States rather cheap too. The prices I've heared people have to cough up for Pay to Play clubs are outragious in comparison to what's being charged as member fees over here.
    So no, it's not a mistake as other/USA options simply donot exist.
    It's either this way or no way.
    On top of that I've no clue what makes you think it does/didnot work.
  21. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Real Madrid
    sorry if sometimes my writing is so confusing, but in simpliest terms, my own opinion in starting all girls youth leagues is better than having girls play in boys leagues, because more girls would likely join(all girls leagues)

    the getting a scholarship while playing soccer, is not all it's cracked up to be. In fact I've I understand the figures, only about 6K out of 39K currently playing college soccer are on fulltime scholarships(tuition, plus room & board). Below is a complete list of every college & how much in scholarship is avaiable for their soccer programs(over 1000 teams)
    Soccer Scholarships & Chances of Playing College Soccer

    TITLE IX biggest success is not handing out full scholarships but it forced most colleges to start programs for females in various sports(and since then our women have been dominating the Olympics in several different sports).

    another important thing to mention is that many of these colleges come with top notch athletic/training facilities(since it's for all sports) I've read Euro posters mentioning that these college facilities are often better than the one's at even the richer pro soccer clubs in Europe(or at least afforded to their female teams)
  22. Dunnoabout other Euro countries, but that wouldnot be the case in the Netherlands.
    It's trumpetted by the KNVB that women soccer (especially the influx of girls below 18) is the fastest growing sport in the Netherlands, but that's based on the growth rate of female soccer players compared to the number of them a couple of years ago.
    In fact other sports are far more popular amongst girls.
    Field hockey is number one and gymnastics are number 2. Soccer is 3d.
    With women it is worse. They get more into individual sports like running and tennis. Soccer drops there to 6th.
    In contrast to expectations after the successful Euro campaign numbers dropped slightly.
    Girls are accustomed to play in mixed teams in the Netherlands. We've invented a completely new sport that is based on mixed teams, Korfbal.
    Making girls play in completely girls restricted competitions would have a counter effect. It would make it much more difficult to find a club to play in and it would also make for more travel time to similar clubs. That's for sure going to put of girls, as over here most girls do multiple sports and if a sport becomes cumbersome to be able to do (especially in combining it with the other sports) it gets dropped.

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