You're right that 10 times better is more of an stretch for sure to be fair! I think I'll leave it at that, as I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm about Messi with any reservations (I think in his own ways for sure Pele could be compared to an alien though - Puskas said something like Di Stefano is the best human because Pele is above that or something didn't he too) - at Messi's best, in full flow, I see where you're coming from anyway - and I don't want to get myself into any long back and forth like I keep saying before adding more comments that could lead to it happening lol (I would expect you'd keep it polite for sure, but yeah I'll go back to trying to keep out of it again!).
If I understand it correctly @Trachta10 has been trying to read all the original game reports and decide which assists seem likely to match Opta criteria.
I'm probably kicking myself for bringing myself back in, but I'll keep it brief and try not to incite further arguments now again. For sure I didn't mean to imply Messi didn't have any creativity or imagination (the goal vs Bayern and Boateng is a good example of him using some off the top of my head for example, whether instinctive or pre-imagined - I guess the former). And I think I have Messi down as a better passer overall than Iniesta (and a better dribbler by a clearer margin, albeit Iniesta I would say is possibly a better dribbler than passer), but it's just that (and maybe some of it is Messi varying in form to an extent) sometimes and in some game situations I think Iniesta did certain creative actions better (a drop of the shoulder following a quick passing sequence, a boot to boot dribble followed by a slide rule pass or whatever) - ones that pertain to opening up the game from a slower pace perhaps mainly, and purely on the mental side maybe he is one with a little more imagination (he was a fan of Laudrup of course, so has it in mind to use certain creative ways to make things open up). I would say that at his very best (when I could be the most inclined I ever could be to think like Dominican or at least for sure both enjoy and admire Messi's abilities) he could be like a combination of Georgi Kinkladze, Oleg Blokhin, Ferenc Puskas (this one would be a stretch in some specific aspects but I'm going with it anyway), Luigi Riva and I'll complete the left footed 5 with Kingsley Black just because he's a favourite of mine lol (so it is a positive in that sense for sure...but it could also be necessary as I'd say he might actually be the best at curling style free-kicks out of these, and maybe even mid range left footed instep passes!). That's for sure very complimentary (though of course I could do similar sorts of lists for other top top players I'm sure)!
@moodiomemo I did notice that nice 1965 pass by Ademir Da Guia though! Nice one indeed, and I understand why you enjoy Clodoaldo as a midfield player for example.
Going more minimalist in terms of numbers maybe I could have just said Kinkladze, Claudio Caniggia (for the dribbling at speed, although he wasn't left footed - note that some of the dribbling prowess can come from Kinkladze too) and Wolfgang Overath. There isn't a prolific scorer there but combine the 3 players (Overath could certainly shoot) and put the creation in a false 9 role a la Guardiola's tactics whereby he's still somewhat a striker and maybe there could be a prolific scorer created. I was thinking, although I for sure think Messi is better than Riva, in some types of goal maybe that one is a stretch too. Anyway before I said aspects of Robben, aspects of Iniesta, and it still was pointed out (though I didn't mean to imply I meant otherwise with 'aspects of') there could be more on top, so maybe with Puskas and Riva it's ok to say aspects of those (but not all aspects - the more on top can be covered by the other inclusions arguably this time though).
whats the motivation behind breaking ones abilities down to slide rule passes, curling freekicks, etc. I agree that in that sense Messi is not using many tools, but having different tools to do the same job seems redundant and doesnt make you a better player. Messi is a creative player but not redundant, which is what allowed him to be this good in the first place..
Just for verification purposes re: the above comparisons: Claudio Caniggia, El Hijo del Viento [Best Goals] - YouTube KINGSLEY BLACK - Forest v Spurs, 92/93 | Retro Goal - YouTube Nott Forest vs QPR 02/10/1994- Premier League 1994/1995 - YouTube (9:52 for a curled goal) (I think he was better with the outside of the boot passes to be fair, compared to Messi, but like I say I'm not able to make a 'perfect match' in every respect!)
Well, on the curling free-kicks, just to clarify, I was thinking possibly only Kingsley Black out of the ones I chose could be somewhat comparable to Messi (in a positive sense), as Messi has for sure become very capable with those (I even posted a Messi vs Zico comparison in my Goal vs Goal thread lately), and that I was including someone at least with a similar style of shot in his locker from free-kicks. On your wider point I get where you're coming from and agree to an extent, but on the other hand if Messi had all his own abilities, all of Zidane's too, all of Ronaldinho's too etc etc then I guess it would have been more likely he'd have put in a World Cup superior to Maradona's from 1986, let alone equal to it! The more tools a player has the more he can call on in certain situations, including in difficult games, and the harder he would be to read and stop for opponents, I'd say. There is no such thing as a perfect player, but I guess in theory the closest it's possible to get wouldn't be a showboater but nevertheless would have many many ways to be effective too. That doesn't mean I'm saying I think Messi is nowhere close to the best ever or something - I'm just saying that the more quality capabilities a player has the better it can be (which in a way is why Messi is superior as an overall player to all these ones I mention, at least when he's playing very well...so that's why I'm mixing them together, and in the same way you mixed Silva/Hazard etc and others including me talked about Robben + Iniesta). Anyway, hopefully nothing really needs to be argued about by me here anymore. My recent posts have been very positive about Messi - I don't think they could be seen as otherwise (look what a fantastic player Kinkladze was capable of being for example, and I'm saying that's not enough, let's combine him with others with excellent qualities too of course!).
Ive never seen you post something stupid or hateful towards Messi or in general so thats not the issue. Dont bother with that. But i am curious, what do you think Messi could have used more to optimize his playing style (without going into physical changes, like become stronger, jump higher).. given who he is as a physical specimen? On the other note, who would you argue to be the most balanced in his playing style while being very effective at utilizing all of its tool? What would perfect playing style look like? To clarify.. i am not asking who is the most complete player (whatever that means) because that would bring few familiar names inro cobversation, I mean in terms of playing style / decision making.. it could be someone like bergkamp etc.
I think you have a point re: the physical side, in that it will always be a limiting factor in some respect - Messi cannot have 'all of Van Basten's attributes' and Van Basten can't have 'all of Messi's attributes' in any case for example because some of the attributes relate specifically to the size of the player. I tend to think Pele could have been the closest to having most stand-out attributes it's possible to have, when at his own very best level, but on your question about who optimised their attributes the best and most efficiently yeah maybe Bergkamp is an option (he's one of those players whose absolute theoretical peak was perhaps never shown, as I think he slowed down a bit since his early days at Ajax, when he was already very capable technically and had already good vision/ideas/passing skill....but like Messi himself and various other players I think he did develop on that side during the 90s). Maybe Kenny Dalglish is a good option that comes to mind (he had little pace, but was a star player based on technical quality and efficiency, vision and decision making) Scotland 3-1 Spain [11-11-1984] - YouTube I'm not one who tends to think of Xavi as really really high up on an all-time list (as hard as it is to try to place all the great players in positions for any of us anyway - maybe we all disagree less than we think about what we think of the players in general), but I think especially in his prime phase he is an option here too that comes to mind, among midfield players. From 'old' players I guess if Nandor Hidegkuti played like this quite often then his name could come into it Nandor Hidegkuti vs England (1953) - YouTube I realise you're feeling Messi is a good option too, and at times at least I would see where you're coming from (like I would say Cruyff also had games where he was playing in an 'optimal' kind of way for example).
As for the question about what if anything Messi might have chosen to do (or worked on more or whatever) - it's difficult to know if he'd tried to go with a more imaginative style whether it would have had better results or not I think, but it's possible (hard to say one way or the other - he could have ended up playing an un-natural style, losing the ball more or whatever). I know that some, maybe including yourself, might feel he's not been far away from 'Maradona combined with Puskas' or perhaps a good compromise between them both, in any case (that particular combination probably is a bit of a stretch though in literal terms but combining all great attributes of two all-time great players always would be - Pele was probably not quite able to say he combines everything of Zico and Van Basten for example, even if arguably close to it!).
That’s an incredible task that Trachta is doing, and he is doing fantastic work. But, as you allude to when using the term “likely,” it’s definitely a very inexact science which is dependent on whether exact details happen to be provided in the game reports (and, of course, whether they’re accurate). I do think @Sexy Beast is right that we can’t really blindly compare apparent assist totals for Pele (or other players from that sort of era) with more recent players as if they’re fully accurate, because they probably aren’t. And while Trachta can improve the accuracy of what we know, there’s only so much he can do here, since we’re inherently limited to the information in the primary sources.
I think Messi could head better if he trained. Romário was shorter than Messi and headed better. Could hit pk better. It could help more on defense as well. Messi is so dominant in attack that teams have always left him with minimal defensive responsibilities. Messi best number of tackles is 1.6 (wc 2014), Pele made 2 tackles per game in WC 70 aged 30, Maradona in his prime made 3.0 tackles in 1986. Messi also had a attitude problem during part of his career with the Argentina national team. He tended to hide in adversity. Bad/average performances in the 2015, 2016 copa america finals and 2014 world cup final. But in recent years he has overcome his demons. Messi played good in wc 2002 final. But Messi also improved throughout his career. He's a much better free-kick taker than he was at Guardiola, his football IQ got better with time I don't think he could have more magic because it's a matter of personality, estilo de jogo.
Yes. For example this situation: It was 2017 yet it takes many different angles, HD resolution and rewatching to realize it wasnt a pass towards Alba by Messi but a deflection. No assist. This would be almost 100% given as Pele assist and I imagine that would have happened quite a few times for Pele and there are many more situations like that How are original reports written? Through watching a footage that is overly zoomed in or by watching it from stands.. either way it is prone to mistakes. It is not crossed checked. By inertia Pele would be credited more than he did given who he was.. I wouldnt be surprised if he was wrongly credited more than 50 assists in that all time stat. We cant know for sure and never will despite the efforts.
Heading was where my mind went. Despite the size it cna be a very valuable tool.. maybe if he had influences amoutside Barcelona at some point. I strongly disagree about defensive effort I super strongly disagree about his performances being bad/average, especially in 2015, 2016 finals.. His football iq did got better over time which is why he was so effective in wc at the age of 35. Personality perspective is an interesting one.. Cruyff is famous for saying that you are in the pitch the same way you are out of pitch so he would urgue players as a manager to be aggressive in everything they do like eating for example.
Yeah, Messi was definitely not bad in those Copa America finals against Chile. For instance, in the 2016 finals, Chile basically couldn’t stop his dribbles at all without constantly hard fouling him, and they got a player sent off pretty early for a double yellow (both on Messi on dangerous dribbles) because of it. That by itself would’ve likely ended up being determinative/decisive, except that an Argentine player went and got himself sent off soon thereafter too. Messi actually was legitimately really good that match (leaving aside the missed penalty in the shootout of course). And I don’t know that anyone is really arguing otherwise, but Messi did actually improve quite a lot over the course of his career in a bunch of ways. He’s naturally gotten a good deal less athletic with time, but he’s offset that by improving a lot in other ways. For instance, he went from not even being his team’s free kick taker, to being one of the best free kick takers of all time. He was always a really good passer, but he definitely wasn’t always at the level where he is clearly the best final ball provider of his era. I think it was around 2011 or 2012 where he started to look like that, and I initially thought it was just an anomaly, but he’s now been over a decade like that (and has actually improved even since then). A good comparison I’ve seen (maybe it was here, I forget) is to compare him to Michael Jordan—who destroyed teams with explosive athleticism in the 1980s and early 1990s, but by the late 1990s he was fairly mortal in terms of athleticism but was still the best because he’d developed other stuff (fadeaway jump shot, most prominently).
I’ll turn briefly to Messi’s finishing—where it’s been questioned whether he outperformed xG throughout his career as much as he did in the years there’s data for it on FBref. There’s a source that lists xG overperformance from prior to FBref data has it. See below. The data on that is actually slightly different than FBref in the years they both have, presumably since they measure xG slightly differently and/or include different details in the equation to calculate it. They’re close though, and this goes further back so is quite informative regarding Messi’s freakish xG overperformance throughout his career. It’s a really important element of his game, because, as we can see, he really wouldn’t look like quite the same goalscorer if he was only matching his xG. By this measure, he’d have averaged about 8 fewer league goals per year in his prime years if he’d simply matched xG on average (which, let’s remember, is what most players roughly do—even really top goalscorers, such as Lewandowski). We have not seen any other player consistently outdo their xG like this.
Regarding Messi as a playmaker, there’s some interesting info here from OPTA relating to World Cup 2022: https://theanalyst.com/na/2022/12/lionel-messi-world-cup-stats-argentina-2022-final/. Note that this data comes from prior to the World Cup finals (meaning the raw number of shot involvements for Messi is lower than it ended up)—but I think that the percent after the finals would probably have gotten even higher, given how the match went. First, we see that Messi was involved (i.e. through shooting, creating the chance, or being directly involved in the build-up) on a higher percent of his team’s shots than virtually anyone in World Cup history—and similar to Maradona in 1986. But it’s not just in WC 2022–he had very high shot involvement in Argentina’s other World Cups (WC 2006 aside, for obvious reasons): As we can see from the first image, anything above 40% shot involvement is rare, and anything approaching 50% (let alone above it) is extremely rare. Yet Messi was near or above 50% in the last three World Cups and well above 40% in the other (Note: the graph above seems to be mislabeled as it pertains to its label of Messi’s World Cup 2010–based on this info, that data point is actually World Cup 2014). It appears that there’s really not anyone in World Cup history who was as consistently involved with his team’s attacking sequences through multiple World Cups like Lionel Messi was—exactly what you’d expect from a playmaker. Is this just because Messi is taking lots of shots (like for instance Eusebio was with his involvement in a World Cup he took 66 shots in)? No. It’s because he’s involved in all ways. Messi was the most involved player on his team, even taking shots out of the equation—because he is very obviously a playmaker. And let’s back this up with some further info. If Messi were a playmaker who was effectively an attacking midfielder, we’d expect him to receive a good portion of his passes in the middle third of the pitch, and not so many passes received near the goal. Well, what do we see? As we can see, in this data (which, again, was from prior to the finals), Messi had 61% of his passes received in the middle or defensive third. And the passes he did receive in the attacking third were disproportionately received in the deepest part of the attacking third. This is once again exactly what we’d expect from someone who is more of an attacking midfielder playing a playmaker role. Which is actually pretty remarkable in a way, since by my estimation he played a more aggressive role in WC 2022 than he typically had in prior World Cups (which we don’t have this kind of data for).
On the question of Messi being clearly the greatest progressor of the ball of his era, I’ve already posted some data on Expected Threat—a statistic that measures how much a player’s passing and carrying of the ball moved the ball to more dangerous parts of the pitch. This is a really great measure of ball progression. I posted info I found for this on a couple specific seasons—I believe it was 2017-2018 and 2020-2021—where Messi was #1 amongst all players in this metric. But below is a report of more complete data—from the 2017-2018 season through to January 2022 (so, a 4.5-year timeframe). It’s a tweet from a random person, but does attribute the info to an entity (soccerment) that I know does xT calculations, so I’m assuming this person’s data is legitimate (and I note that it’s also quite consistent with the single-season xT data I was able to find). See below: This indicates once again that Messi is the best player of his era both at progressing the ball with passes and at progressing the ball with dribbling, as he is pretty easily #1 in both (with only Neymar even being particularly close in either). The combined ball progression that Messi provides is clearly in its own league—getting the ball to more dangerous areas substantially more than any player. This ball progression provides immense value to his team—value which is not accounted for by his goals or assists. Clearly indicative of a player who can and does have great games without scoring or assisting, though it just so happens that this same player is one of the greatest of all time at both of those things.
Agree with all this, but there's a couple areas where he is most deficient imo - mentality being a big one of course.. but: 1. Two-footedness. He has / had a massive dependency on his left foot which hampers his playmaking especially. Playing outlet passes with right foot foot, crosses, etc. 2. Decision-making. His play is extremely stereotyped so dependent on system / set plays / runs. Needs specific style of play. There is an extreme rigidness to this which is one of the more disappointing aspects of the player. Especially younger, it was worse. Often ignored outlets and potential overlaps on right wing as he would cut in on his left foot. Sometimes prone to overdribbling when passing is better. 3. Crossing. Related to style. But he virtually avoids crossing. Stylistic rigidity 4. Work-rate. Causes tactical imbalance.
Playmaker performance references: Zidane vs. Brazil 2006 Average position 3 players in more advanced positions. 54 accurate passes. 17% of team's accurate passes Xavi vs Netherlands 2010 Average position Identical to Zidane's positioning. 90 accurate passes 17% of team's accurate passes Modric vs Russia 2018 Average position Identical to prior two - hugging centre circle - 3 attacking players ahead. 89 accurate passes 15% of team's accurate passes Messi vs. France Most advanced player. In a match where he is highly rated by Sofascore but has an assist so presumably a more playmaking role, his avg. position is still the most forward player on his team, and he is less advanced than here (clearly moreso than the other maps shown) 46 accurate passes 11% of team's accurate passes (overperformance / statistical anomaly as his tournament avg is around 7%) What Messi ends up being most similar is a more advanced version of Totti 2006 for example. The team's playmaker contributes to anywhere between 15 to 20% of the team's passes, and the positioning is invariably more deep both on the pitch and relative to teammates.
Hi, yes..It could be said that the criteria is "Opta," since I consider only the last pass to the player who scores the goal as an assist Actions like -GK rebounds -Post rebounds -Own goals assists -Pens won (scored by teammates) are easily identified and are not counted as assists But the problem is with "deflected assists," if the pass is deflected by another player, something like that wouldn't come out in the descriptions, at least I don't remember reading that ever. The game reports usually describe it like "Player A passes/crosses the ball to player B". Looking at the stats in https://www.messivsronaldo.app/detailed-stats/all-assists/ The number of deflected assists that both Messi and Cristiano have represent around the 7.5% of the total (Opta assists+deflected) Messi 350 opta and 28 deflected Cristiano 234 opta and 19 deflected So it could be roughly estimated, that if I have counted 366 assists for Pele, that number could be inflated by 7.5% The same for the 378 assists of Puskás, or the 358 of Cruyff, or those of any player whose assists were counted using newspaper.
Worth noting that in league + CL/Europa play since 2017-2018, Messi has only completed 0.03 fewer crosses into the penalty area per 90 minutes than Cristiano Ronaldo and only 0.01 fewer crosses into the penalty area per 90 minutes than Luka Modric. And that’s largely on the back of tactical changes asking Messi to do it more in one particular season (2020-2021, though to a lesser degree the prior season too), and he responded by completing twice as many crosses into the penalty box as Luka Modric completed in any season in that timeframe. More generally, leaving aside crosses completed into the penalty area specifically, WhoScored data tells us that Messi had substantially more accurate crosses in that particular season (42) than Cristiano Ronaldo had in any season from 2009-2010 onwards (his most was 26). And he had more key passes from crosses that season than Modric or Ronaldo ever had from 2009-2010 onwards. He’s never been Kevin De Bruyne or Jesus Navas or something with regards to crossing a lot, but I think that season suggests he did have the tactical/stylistic flexibility to make plenty of crosses if the tactics asked him to—which isn’t a surprise, since he’s typically been his teams’ set-piece taker for corners and indirect free kicks for years, something you don’t do unless the player is great at crossing. Not to mention that that set play where he cuts in slightly from the right side and then makes a lofted pass to someone making a run on the left wing is basically a cross. ________________________________ As for those average positions, anyone who reads that post should please note that that last picture in the second to last post above provides false information. That picture is of France’s average positions, not Argentina’s. So that #10 player who is way further up on average than everyone is Mbappe, not Messi. In any event, if looking at the correct thing, Messi is basically level on average with Julian Alvarez in that game, despite not tracking back a lot and also not defending set pieces (which can affect average positioning a lot). He’s also clearly got an average position further back than Lautaro Martinez when Martinez was in. That’s suggestive of him not being as far up as those two on average in attack. And, despite the set piece and not-tracking-back stuff, he wasn’t the furthest forward on average position in the semifinals. Ultimately, anyone who watched these games knows he was not the furthest forward player in attack on average. And the fact that his average position is nowhere near as far ahead of everyone as Mbappe actually bolsters the point here that Messi doesn’t play as a dedicated forward. As for the percentages of a team’s passes, anyone reading that data about single games should please note that I’ve provided extensive data in this thread showing that, in league + CL play for the past 5.5 years, Messi’s percent of his team’s passes in the middle and attacking third is at the very top end of where attacking midfielders end up and is indeed only very slightly below CM’s like Modric. That is obviously more pertinent to this question than looking at a single game or any much lower sample size of matches. Like to that post here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/p...6-vs-messi-2022.2123982/page-43#post-41169510. In any event, no one is calling Messi a “playmaker” in the way that someone like Xavi is (or even Modric). He’s not the midfield controller. Nor is he a deep-lying playmaker. No one is suggesting that. There’s different types of playmakers, and the point I’ve made has always been that he plays as more of an attacking midfielder playmaker (something akin to a classic #10—Totti isn’t even a terrible comparator actually, but aside from a brief period of time Totti was an attacking midfielder). So the point isn’t that he’s Xavi. He’s not. It’s that he’s not a striker, and is more of a classic #10 who happens to score a ton. The data is strongly supportive of that—in terms of everything from heat maps, to complex statistical models of roles, to percent of his team’s middle and attacking third passing, to his involvement in attacking sequences, his progressive passing numbers, etc. It’s also supported by watching him play.
Amendment, pasted the wrong picture: Messi's average position as the most forward player on his team, and significantly ahead of the positioning of playmakers - so the team's designated forward as you would expect of course In other words, he is the focal point of the team's attacking sequence, the one playing closest to goal, the player that takes the most shots. If he is not scoring, he does not fill the shoes of dedicated playmakers - who cover far more ground and contribute far more to other phases of the game beyond the final third.
Across all of his World Cup games, Messi’s “average position” was only the furthest up of his team in 38% of the games. And every single time he was the furthest up on average, it was barely. And that’s despite the fact that his average position is heavily biased by not defending set pieces, which get other players touches deep in defending areas that can massively pull their “average position” back, especially if they’re attackers/strikers who don’t get all that many touches (which means that a few touches in the defending areas would drag the average position down a lot—see for example, Giroud having an average position only barely ahead of Tchouameni and Rabiot in the WC finals for an extreme example of this in action). And of course, those sorts of players are precisely the people who we’d expect to have higher average position than Messi, so heavily biasing those particular players’ average position is a really big deal for this analysis, and given that Messi is only ever the furthest ahead by a tiny margin, that’s highly suggestive that he’s actually probably never been the furthest forward on average on attack. And either way, when he’s furthest forward in average position, it’s nothing like what we see from a dedicated forward like Mbappe (who can often be massively ahead, as we’ve seen from the mistaken image), which is quite telling. None of this should be surprising to people who have watched him play—especially for Argentina. Messi does not play like a dedicated goalscorer. He plays more like a trequartista or classic #10–who are clearly playmakers.