In terms of defenders since 1990 onwards I think Franco Baresi 1990 is another one I might bring into it actually, though he doesn't have the ending of the tournament to match Maldini 1994 or Cannavaro 2006, even if he may have played better on average than either before that point (but if anything I guess had a bit less to do in terms of last ditch defending). Not one I'd add to the 'probably better' (IMO) category vis a vis Messi (and for me Griezmann/Mbappe too), but like I say it's probably harder to compare defensive players anyway. That 'probably better' category maybe only contains Romario 1994 and/or Baggio 1994 then, to summarise, in the period enquired about, though a) even then I'm not exactly clearly in that direction....but b) there are others in a similar ballpark as per my original reply (close one way or the other), and some of those quarter-final exit players would fit in there too. I was wondering if I'd put a goalie from this period in question above Livakovic 2022 also, and it's possible I wouldn't. I think it's a similar case whereby Preud'homme from 1994 could (would actually) be ahead, but the early exit (he went out in the 2nd round game, not even QF) perhaps ought to flip that around - Livakovic's games after that point the predominant ones making his case in general probably anyway. On the 3rd place games issue, I guess France-Germany from 1958 is a spectacular one (more for France than Germany!) from World Cup history for example, and I'm sure Poland were excited to end with the 3rd place in 1974 when they had a game vs Brazil. Whether the game has become less appealing of late I'm not sure - maybe even in 1990 England didn't take it too seriously or perform too well (although Italy did moreso) and ditto 1994 with Bulgaria taking England's role, and Sweden taking Italy's (even 1998 with Croatia and the Netherlands respectively perhaps). Ideally it is best if two still-enthusiastic sides take to the pitch, and perform well, in a relatively open but still 'proper' game I think, but yeah I think myself certainly some of the 3rd Place Play-Off games have been worthwhile and added to the tournament nicely still, over the years (2010's game was decent I tend to think too wasn't it, in some respects?)....
3rd place games are not important(In addition, Brazil conceded 7 goals against Germany) Group stage games are much more important than 3rd place Games Spain 2014 was a disaster in fact, the only big team that Robben played against was Argentina, Which He performed very poorly in that game Maybe Chile can be considered as a big team, but compared to the 1974 teams and Cruyff's performances, it's like a joke You know how to play with numbers, but the truth is something else
The best Italian player for me in the 2006 world cup was Andrea Pirlo. I understand the context that Italy was a defensively very strong team and won the World Cup that way and they chose Canavaro as the representative of that defensive solidity (although they didn't do the same with Mascherano in 2014 guess why?). But Italy's best player in the 2006 World Cup was Pirlo. The best player of the tournament, I think it's up to the discussion between Pirlo and Zidane. But certainly not Cannavaro.
I think you and @PrimoCalcio will be in agreement on this one! Some might throw Buffon in there I guess (or throw him into my discussion I was having with myself about 'keepers that may have had a tournament as good as or better than Livakovic's 2022 one since 1990 - I only mentioned Preud'homme for 1994 and thought it might be hard to say that given when he went out...though some other possible candidates exist too I suppose anyway).
Statistically, Mbappe provided a superior performance to Messi in 2022, including a more spectacular finals performance. For reference: https://fbref.com/tiny/iWIXO
Alas, Messi won the 2022 WC Golden Ball and it was not at all a controversial decision. That was not controversial because people who watched the matches thought Messi deserved it. But even based on pure statistics, the websites that aggregate and weigh those stats (i.e. the same stats that all these websites have/use) had Messi with a better WC than Mbappe. For instance, Messi had a 8.25 average from WhoScored and Mbappe had a 8.00 average (and, in knockout stage matches, it was 8.55 for Messi vs. 8.10 for Mbappe). Meanwhile, Messi had a 8.27 average from SofaScore and Mbappe had a 7.61 average (and, in knockout stage matches, it was 8.53 for Messi vs. 7.68 for Mbappe). Someone is free to look at those same stats and weigh them their own way such that they personally think Mbappe looks statistically better, but that’s clearly against the grain of consensus based on analyses of all those same stats, and is against the grain of consensus from people who watched in general, given who got the Golden Ball. Which is no knock on Mbappe, as he too had one of the greatest WC performances we’ve seen in a long time.
I politely asked you to disengage from replying to me. There is a deep-seated problem here if you feel the need to continue replying at all costs.
It’s for others’ edification, not to engage in any back and forth with you, buddy. You being too toxic to engage with doesn’t mean your ideas or subjects you raise cannot be discussed more generally.
No, it just means that you are so emotionally bothered by the subject raised, that you cannot let go. Other posters are intelligent enough to raise their own objections, conclusions, arguments, and distinguish right from wrong. For you to think otherwise is worrisome.You can throw toxicity as a term around, but the truth is I am the one that asked you to disengage, and you are still incapable of doing so.
If I wanted to simply leave others to always come to their own conclusions and whatnot without providing my own input on subjects, I wouldn’t be a poster on an internet forum, and neither would anyone else. That’s the nature of what we’re all doing here. Anyways, I have no desire to have any back and forth with you because you are manifestly abusive, and I am not particularly pleased that you’ve tried to start a back and forth in which you once again engage in personal attacks. You provided a perspective on a topic, and I provided my own, and we need not engage further about it—as you say, others can weigh in on the topic with their own conclusions/arguments and distinguish right from wrong.
Not pressing reply, does not entail that you are not replying to a poster. Your post is an evident reply to mine in spite of the passive aggressive tone - something I have asked you repeatedly to stop doing. There is no personal attack in my communication - I asked you to stop point blank and you are unable to respect that. Further, when I remind you, you throw words like "toxic" and "abusive". Just let me be, why do you feel the need to constantly reply is very disturbing.
You didn't tackle the last portion of his post regarding mbappe having a superior final performance Sofascore has a rating but whoscored also has a another https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...national-FIFA-World-Cup-2022-Argentina-France It's definitely more than OK to think Mbappe had a superior finals performance And of course comparing mbappes performances vs a dynamic team like Morroco(with the Arab home advantage) Morroco that managed to beat both Portugal and spain or even mbappes performance against the youthful 'world class' English team to Messis performances vs Australia, the worst generation of Holland since the 50s or the old pensioner version of Croatia is not serious stuff
I would still give the golden ball to Messi because he won the tournament by the way Carlito, but yes that is exactly my point. Statistically, there is little doubt that Mbappe was the better player, while Argentina's run was bolstered by penalties. The better final performance goes to Mbappe - a hattrick is unheard of, a comeback hattrick in the dying minutes consisting of ultra-high pressure penalties and a second goal of immense penalty vs. a penalty in the early minutes won by the scorer of the second goal, a lost possession leading to an equalizing goal, and a great effort to equalize.
I think it’s perfectly fine to think Mbappe had a better finals. I think it’s close. Mbappe got a hat-trick, so he’s obviously well in the mix for best performance in the finals. But he also was pretty absent from the game for the first 75 minutes or so, and Messi had a really great game (with two goals himself, a crucial part played in the third, and more consistent involvement throughout the game). So it’s a close call. And the fact that it’s a tough call is reflected in WhoScored and SofaScore not being consistent over which one they have ahead. But I do think the overall picture remains ahead for Messi in the tournament. Let’s remember that the general consensus here prior to the finals was that Griezmann had been France’s best player. In any event, the point I was making was more just that analysis of all the available statistical data has been done and generally has Messi coming out ahead overall, so a contrary conclusion based on the same statistics is possible (weighing different stats is subjective after all) but would be against the grain of analyses of those same stats.
Outfield Players aged 30 or above in the Argentina-croatia match Croatia Luka Modric 37 years old Ivan perisic 34 years old Dejan lovran 33 years old Andrej kramaric 31 years old Mislav orsic 30 years old Marcelo brozovic 30 years old Argentina Lionel Messi 35 years old Otamendi 34 years old Tagliafico 30 years old Outfield Players aged below 25 Croatia Gvardiol 21 years old Argentina Molina 24 years old Romero 24 years old Enzo Fernandez 22 years old Mac allister 24 years old Julian alvarez 24 years old Palacious 24 years old https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...ational-FIFA-World-Cup-2022-Argentina-Croatia
Younger players aren’t necessarily better than older ones—though in this case I would agree that Argentina was a better team overall (and that was ultimately reflected in the scoreline). They’re definitely a very good team, though, and Messi definitely had a great game against them. And I also definitely don’t think we should go overboard about Morocco. They were a very strong defensive team, so it wasn’t easy to perform well against them. But they were a surprise semifinalist and certainly considered the least good team in the semifinals if you looked at betting odds and whatnot. Furthermore, their strength in the tournament had been playing really defensively and either getting a goal on the counterattack or winning on penalties. But that strategy was upended when France scored in the 5th minute, and the game opened up and Morocco was actually playing quite attacking football for most of the match. So I don’t think that that match should be rated as one that was particularly hard to perform well in (and Mbappe wasn’t bad—both France’s goals were off deflections of his shots—but he wasn’t great either).
Re the Netherlands Holland's best outfield player Depay wasn't and still isnt even a first team player in his own club Forget about the other guys Weghorst? Manchester United just recently got him on loan from championship side Burnley VVD is past it enough that we can definitely say he isn't even in the top 3 CBs in the premier league right now Mediocrity all over
The Netherlands have an elo rating of 2073–which is 4th in the world. They’d not lost a single match since the Euros (and, indeed, in a sense still haven’t done if you count the penalty shootout loss to Argentina as a 2-2 draw). They’re a good team.
Not better than Julian alvarez Alvarez has a higher whoscored rating and Messi even stole one of his goals(the penalty that alvarez earned) If we take whoscored as a reference Messi was neither the MOTM in the SF or the final
Same Netherlands team that could not progress past Round of 16 at the Euro. Lost decisively 2-0 against... Czech Republic - and this isn't a team that later on went on a hot streak - they capitulated to Denmark the following round.
We had a discussion earlier about Messi being an AM who scores at the rate of a world-class goalscorer. If we take a look at secondary chances provided - that is a reflection of participation in plays leading to a shot on the net - a statistic that is often very reflective of the role of the playmaker, for 2017 (only year I can find this statistic), we find the following: He has nowhere near the volume of participation in this sequence of play as dedicated playmakers. Rather, his profile is most similar attackers. IF this was adjusted on a per game or minute basis, it would be even more telling.
Or if we instead looked at the official man of the match, Messi was man of the match in all four knockout stage matches Argentina played. For reference, Mbappe was official man of the match in one knockout stage match. And even if you thought Julian Alvarez was better in the semifinals (which is a perfectly valid opinion—Alvarez was great in that match!), Messi’s performance in the semifinals was still great. The fact is that Mbappe had a great WC and was great in the finals. But the general consensus—among viewers, Golden Ball voters, and stat aggregation websites—is that Messi was even better overall in the World Cup.
The players with the most open-play chances and secondary chances created last season: This is extremely interesting because Messi still completed a large volume of passes and progressive passes. He also played a more withdrawn role at PSG, combining with elite attackers at his disposition in an easier league. Comparing Benzema and Messi's passing stats: We find that Total passes Messi 2109 Benzema 1468 Progressive passes Messi 349 Benzema 237 Messi also had more dead balls, which are a source of chance creation Benzema does not get. In fact: In terms of dead balls leading to chances: Messi 9 Benzema 0 What we see is that Messi passes a great deal, but is not converting those passes in to as much goalscoring opportunity as a player who actually gets less touches and sees the ball less. This is the strongest indication of lesser efficiency in possession. In other words, Messi has a distinctive passing profile - he likes to get involved and get touches on the ball, but his productivity is not as high as a striker who sees less of the ball and was therefore far less efficient in terms of playmaking compared to say, Benzema - another playmaking forward. When we compare numbers closer to Messi's peak, he is nowhere near the numbers of the best playmakers in terms of secondary chances - he clearly does not fit the same positional / role profile.
L'équipe player ratings for the final: Mbappe ahead of Messi. And Messi tied with Di Maria (who did not even play the full game owing to injury) and Martinez.
I’m finding it hard to understand why someone who just insisted only about an hour or two ago that he didn’t want me to engage with his ideas and suggested that by engaging with his ideas I must somehow be “so emotionally bothered by the subject raised, that I cannot let go,” has now turned around and made two posts addressing a “discussion” that “we” had previously had (which was not presently ongoing until his posts), in which I was the only person here arguing with him (or arguing the other side in general), and he is now trying to present further evidence against the views I’d expressed. It’s honestly breathtaking. It basically comes down to saying: “You are an ‘emotionally bothered’ crazy person if you engage with my ideas, because I said I wanted to stop engaging with you, but it’s totally fine for me to immediately turn around and engage with your ideas from a dormant discussion, and I’ll surely act like you’re a totally out-of-line nutjob if you substantively respond to that.” It’s an attitude tailor-made for someone who just needs to have the last word and will be as much of an emotionally-abusive bully as possible in order to get it. And of course it gets crazier when one realizes that his request for me to stop engaging with him came not after misbehavior from me, but rather after this individual had had an absolute meltdown of personal attacks aimed at me when I pointed out that a stat he’d reported was objectively incorrect, followed by me asking for an apology for the personal attacks (which he refused, engaging in further attacks in doing so, and gaslighting saying he no longer wanted to engage with me because of my “behavior” in the exchange). So, it’s more like: “I will abuse you, refuse to apologize, gaslight and act like a victim when you request an apology, then act like you’re a crazy person and I’m a victim if you later engage with my ideas at all, and then immediately turn around and attack your ideas, assuming I’ve now bullied you into not responding to it.” Just shameless stuff. I will not be engaging at all with the substance of what this person is saying, despite it plainly being meant to refute arguments that I had made earlier in this thread. However, I do feel the need to make this post because, while it’s possible this person may get away with this sort of behavior in real life (or with others here or elsewhere on the internet), I simply don’t let people treat me like this anywhere (real life or internet) without calling out the individual doing it.