Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Maradona 1986

    50 vote(s)
    86.2%
  1. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    There’s a lot of good points in here, and I agree with the stuff at the end for sure.

    Regarding Robben, that was a devastating performance from him, but I think people put less value on that performance because Spain also went on to lose handily to Chile as well (and, while those matches could’ve just been a result of statistical randomness, Spain wasn’t good in Euro 2016 or WC 2018 either). I think it’s hard to deny that Spain was well below what they’d previously been. However, I also think it’s true that Arjen Robben was basically a player with strengths that were perfectly tailor-made to give problems to teams like that Spain team. He just had such pace and dribbling ability, such that he had a pretty unique capability to wreck teams that played a high defensive line like Spain did. To be honest, he was quite devastating against them in WC 2010 (when they obviously were in their heyday) as well—he just couldn’t finish. And he was really good against Barcelona in Bayern’s 7-0 aggregate victory in the 2012-2013 Champions League.
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Chile won back to back copa America titles in 2015 and 2016
    There is no shame in losing 2-0 to this team especially not in a one off game

    And of course 2-0 isn't the same as 5-1

    Brazil did something similar in the 2013 confederations cup but of course no one will pretend as if a confederations cup match is remotely the same as a world cup match

    That was the heaviest defeat inflicted on Spain in real competitive matches between 2008 and 2014
    And robben was the main protagonist(van persie was obviously world class aswell)
     
  3. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah, I mean I generally agree—I’m just saying that the 5-1 victory seemed less surprising after Spain lost 2-0 in the next match (albeit, as you note, to a good team) and proceeded to not really be all that impressive again in subsequent tournaments. Was still a very impressive performance from Robben, and honestly he was similarly good in many ways in the WC 2010 final but just couldn’t finish. I’m of the view that prime Arjen Robben at his best was as good as virtually anyone ever (what brought him down was injuries and lack of consistent form).
     
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  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    With all due respect this is the mindset of a loser

    Germany did annihilate Brazil on their home ground and if anything that should've galvanised Brazil to put on a very strong showing against the Netherlands

    Otherwise you are saying the tears and apologetic press conferences of Brazilian players post match were practically bullshit.
    What is an apology if you dont at least attempt to correct your previous failings or try your hardest to ensure they dont happen again?

    You are projecting a weak mindset on the Brazilian NT with this statement
     
  5. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Without question IMO
     
  6. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Well…I kind of think a team that lost 7-1 at home in the WC semifinals pretty clearly did have a weak mindset…

    In any event, none of this really matters, because the third-place match doesn’t matter virtually at all, and so performances in it are pretty close to irrelevant.
     
  7. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Not necessarily
    Losing doesn't make you weak
    They were just comprehensively thrashed by a vastly superior team IMO

    Brazil was a top 10 team but that's only with their two top players Neymar and thiago Silva and of course they never had them

    And defensive line with Marcelo,David Luis and washed up version of maicon is just a fu*k me as hard as you want for as long as you want invitation
    They will ship in goals by the boatload


    The accusation made by the previous poster however was that Brazil didn't even try or gave up hope after the germany match
    That's a claim that needs to be substantiated

    A 3rd place match definitely is relevant even though it is arguably less relevant than a normal world cup KO match

    Definitely not irrelevant though
     
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  8. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    #958 PrimoCalcio, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    Robben's performance against Spain 2014 was very impressive, as was his WC 2014 overall. But it was not the Spain team of 2008-2012. Spain was ruthlessly exposed by the Dutch as being stale, over-the-hill as a team. The winning cycle was over. It's not uncommon for champions to be shadows of their former selves come the next tournament, remaining loyal for too long to previously successful tactics and players and failing to reinvigorate.
     
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  9. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Not easy to walk the talk in every circumstance in life is it? When Brazil started the tournament at home only goal of them must have been of becoming World Champions. If that doesn't happen be the finalist at the worst. And it wasn't a group stage game where you can still lift yourself up and give your best in the next match. It was a knockout, and quite literally so for the home side. Also utterly embarrassing defeat it was. You ought to say sorry to your countrymen for such show. And what would a 5 times champion supposed to achieve in a 3rd place affair at home... next to nothing. If such situation doesn't cause heartbreak not sure anything else can. Their loss to Netherlands were quite natural, it's not about weak mindset.
     
  10. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #960 lessthanjake, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    I think it was pretty obvious that the manner of that 7-1 defeat was, in large part, a result of weak mindset—with the Brazil players essentially having a collective mental breakdown after the first goal or two. I’m pretty sure I’ve read the Brazil players having even admitted as much—though it doesn’t matter enough to me for me to look up exact quotes. But, in any event, you won’t convince me that a 3rd place match (or performances in those matches) matters. It is the least important match in the World Cup, except if there’s a total dead rubber group stage match (i.e. one where both teams are locked into their spot in the group already).
     
  11. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    For me 3rd place WC matches are the least relevant of the entire tournament. Wouldn't bother me if they scrapped it one bit.
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    If Brazil somehow could've put on a very strong showing against the dutch the outrage post world cup would've not been so intense
    They were aware of this even more than you(or me)


    Perhaps the fans of Brazil would've been more understanding of the circumstances surrounding the 7-1 defeat

    Excuses like these would've been more forthcoming
    They were playing without their best players
    The stage and pressure got to their heads and forced them to make mistakes that perhaps they wouldn't have in other circumstances

    You can bet everything you have that the brazilian NT went into that game attempting to salvage any honour they had that was stripped away by Germany
     
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  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The match to officially crown the third best team in the world cup is irrelevant

    Gotcha
     
  14. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Agree with you that without Neymar they were weakened and that's exactly why the confidence would've been even lower as they knew very well they couldn't beat a solid Dutch side 7-1 or 5-0 to get some sympathy back from the fans.
     
  15. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yes, I’m glad we agree. As does essentially everyone—including that Dutch team themselves:

    https://www.latimes.com/sports/socc...hy-third-place-world-cup-game-croatia-morocco

    “It’s one of the most pointless games in international sports, a match no one wants to play and one few remember once it’s over.”

    https://www.france24.com/en/20140711-world-cup-2014-third-place-playoff-holland-brazil

    “But instead the teams, like a couple of dancing bears, will be dragged back out in front of the crowd for a final time in a match dubbed meaningless by fans, players and coaches alike.”

    Holland coach Louis van Gaal has already made his feelings about the match clear.
    "I think this match should never be played," van Gaal told reporters. "I've been saying this for 10 years. But we'll just have to play this match."

    "But I said this 15 years ago. You shouldn't have players play a match for 3rd/4th place, because there's only one prize that counts and that's becoming champion.”

    Dutch forward Arjen Robben was equally dismissive of the chance to claim the third-place ‘prize’.

    “They can keep it,” he said. “Only one prize, counts and that is becoming world champion.”

    https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sport/football/world-cup-2022-third-place-play-off/

    “In recent years, the World Cup third place game has become something of a farce. Players are exhausted, as it is after training hard and competing at their peak for six weeks at a World Cup. The last thing a defeated semi-finalist wants is to play a third-place game for no extra money or prestige.”
     
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  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #966 carlito86, Feb 2, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
    In 10 years the same van gaal will be writing in his autobiography that taking Holland to 3rd place in the world cup was one of his greatest achievements

    In 20 years Arjen robben will brush of any suggestions that his generation underachived at the world cup saying

    "We reached a world cup final And finished 3rd place in the next"

    I guarantee you this

    Those quotes you mention are ones in the heat of the moment
    They just lost the ultimate prize or the chance to compete for the ultimate prize

    Do you see players taking off their runner up medals in champions league finals?
    These are the same players who will remind everyone and their dog that they got the chance to play in finals

    Polish fans are talking about their 3rd place finish at the world cup until this freaking day
    I know some and they weren't even born at the time of those finishes

    Not everyone can be a winner but consolation prizes do exist and are relevant
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Which professional team goes into a match knowing and expecting to be beaten

    A bunch of clowns maybe but not professional teams bro
     
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  18. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Either you are unable to understand my posts or putting words in my mouth intentionally.
     
  19. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    I think you suggested we should effectively riscount a third place match performance because players are upset that they're disputing the match
     
  20. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    I am simply suggesting a 3rd place match performance cannot be compared with a final performance.
     
  21. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Yes, but in this case we are talking about a good performance in a 3rd place match vs a poor performance in a final. Saying a performance is superior by mere virtue of taking place in a higher caliber game would be odd. The added context is the difference maker in outcomes was a penalty shootout.
     
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  22. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #972 lessthanjake, Feb 3, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2023
    I think the issue is just that one should never compare a finals performance and a third-place performance, because the latter doesn’t really matter and the former definitely does. It doesn’t really matter if someone played horribly or great in the third-place match. It basically just shouldn’t be considered in evaluating a player’s WC as a whole (or if it’s considered, it should be very minor consideration).
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I definitely respect your views mate: on this one I kind of see it differently though - I quite like them being a part of the World Cup (the Euros for example can do without them though indeed I think), even though it's true that for both teams it is a match played having gone out of the tournament with no possibility to win it now (and I think unlike in Olympic events like I guess some cycling ones, or judo or something, where similar happens, the 'bronze medal' place is not really so treasured even though especially for teams that never went that far before it's still seen positively if a team ends up 3rd). Some of them, looking back through the years, have been pretty entertaining - Brazil vs Italy 1978 comes to mind, the 1980s ones maybe, but also others have been ok and added something I'd say, and the semi-finalists and their players get an extra chance to perform (to put on a good show and round out their tournament, and to play for 3rd place even though it's not held in especially high esteem compared to in the Olympics like I say).
     
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  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I feel like it shouldn't be completely omitted from the assessment of a player at the World Cup in question though mate: I mean it's still a (competitive, albeit not as much so) game they played in. Maybe looking at it that way rather than the comparison to the Final game (albeit I know in my Brolin/Messi example I did already in effect compare them just because they were the games at the same stage) can persuade people it's worth some consideration at least (especially if the player played very well and/or it ends as a closely contested game till the end)?
     
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  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I hope it's ok mate if I give you this reply and then bow out of the thread again (hopefully for good this time - I want to be spending my time on IceBlood's thread really in the next days and like I say what I don't want is endless and annoying arguments - I'm not saying you're trying to drag me into that though as maybe you're just interested - maybe I was a bit careless in replying to your first request that wasn't just to me because I might have assumed my reply would just be one of many and not get so much attention and follow-up questions etc).

    I'll try and give some detail here in terms of my thinking, then you won't need to quiz me on it later - of course if you want to have your say and comparing some tournaments of players I mention that's your right, but I guess your comments can stand alone without needing to go back and forth with further ones by me anyway. I'm trusting that you value my ideas or something, and are not just trying to set me up to shoot me down if that's the right way to put it (I could do without that for sure!).

    By the same token, I won't add further replies about the 3rd place-play off games (I just made a couple of points on that now) or comment on Cruyff/Robben, so that I can try to stop posting on this thread now in general. Thanks to anyone (hopefully everyone) who respects that wish at this point (I realise a couple of times or more I've in effect dragged myself back in with new comments though anyway).

    I also hope Gregoire doesn't take any calls by me as a slating of his own ideas, since he opened the thread and clearly puts Messi 22 right up at the top end, and we always got on well and respectfully when we chatted by PM or whatever.

    I'll just deal with players that you didn't already mention, since I basically gave my calls (using the word close a lot of course...and that is a pertinent point here I feel and maybe it's not surprising that in a tournament scenario with a handful of games or so at most played by any player, where typically most of the best players in the world take part for their national teams, over a period of years there are likely to be several individual tournaments of a similar level among those who do well in several/most games they play) for the ones you originally listed, and in effect only Romario from 1994 was placed as 'kind of' decisively ahead and even that one I'd be a bit uncertain on potentially (I felt that compared to say Zidane from 2006 it might be less problematic to place it ahead in a clear-ish way though given Romario had by and large consistent contributions from the start to end of the World Cup...albeit less so in the Final apart from squeezing home a penalty goal in the shoot-out). So basically you can refer to my previous post for part of the answer too,


    Ok, so starting with the 'Messi era' if that's what we call it for 2010-2022, the one I could be leaning towards as being ahead if anything would also be one I'd understand you'd challenge on the basis of a quarter-final exit, and I would certainly have doubts about it (I did go with it ahead of Robben/Messi who I saw as close at the time, and I felt that was ok since Messi didn't really add much in the SF and Final to 'overtake' this player, but comparing to Messi 22 and that dynamic changes of course as although Messi didn't have two absolutely tremendous performances he for sure had his moments, some of them being key contributions, even if yeah on another day he might have ended up losing possession before a winning French goal - that's not how it ended up though and overall although Di Maria was better while he was on I think, and Mac Allister for example might have been a valid call for MOTM IMO, Messi did make good contributions, including a nice part in the Di Maria team goal of course). Anyway, you guessed who I mean I suppose - James Rodriguez from 2014.

    From 2010 I don't think I'd likely quite put anyone in the mix with the Griezmann/Mbappe/Messi trio from 2022 actually - I think more along the lines of there having been quite a decent number of candidates at a slightly lower tier so to speak, with perhaps one or two in the ballpark of Robben/Messi from 2014 moreso than these players from 2022 (but firstly it's not exactly a big gap probably, and secondly it's my personal estimation and not based on a re-review of all the involvements in games today or a re-watch of the whole tournaments over the recent weeks!). From 2018 the most likely candidate would be Hazard (according to my ideas at the time) with possibly Mbappe more in the Robben/Messi 2014 group I think for example. I'd possibly be more likely to think of Hazard as below Griezmann/Mbappe/Messi from 2022 rather than above though, even though in some respects he was probably better (ball retention, dribbling etc) and he had some nice assists and some impressive games at key moments.

    Ok, so going back to 1990-2006 (in a way the earlier ones in that period are arguably more in the era of the 1980s than today though maybe - except 1990 was quite a defensive World Cup and did bring about some rule changes that influenced the future of football). Like I said before I think for 1990 itself (other than Matthaus), it's mostly a case of any possible candidates going out earlier. I'd mention Paul Gascoigne (he didn't even play the 3rd place game though, and would have missed the Final of course had England won the penalty shoot-out..as unlikely as that maybe was anyway!)

    From the quarter-finalists, players that I think may have claims for being better than Messi up to and including that point (by that I don't mean with a better QF necssarily I should clarify, but 'as at the end of the QF match, over the tournament so far') would be Dragan Stojkovic and Roger Milla, but perhaps Stojkovic's claims might be less than James Rodriguez's if anything (I think he was a better player than James I'd say, but James did really have a stand-out tournament), and Milla has the issue of relative lack of minutes (albeit maybe it makes what he did more impressive in some respects) which I understand you'd probably see as ruling him out, even though he did end up playing extra-time a couple of times and staying on the pitch a long time, playing well and contributing goals/assists (but Messi played extra time periods too of course).

    For 1998, maybe Bergkamp fits in with the QF exit players I'm naming, not because he went out at that stage but because the end of his tournament fits more with the Messi 2014 example rather than Messi 2022 one I guess (again up to and including the QF I might think he'd be ahead of Messi 2022 possibly, although for the QF itself I might have the Messi performance ahead slightly potentially, without forgetting Bergkamp's key and exceptional contribution/s (I add the s because he had a very nice headed assist as well as the obvious moment) against IMO a more talented Argentina team than the Netherlands 2018 team Messi faced). I'd have him as worth a mention in a similar ballpark maybe anyway I think, but not in the Romario 94 category of being 'probably ahead'.

    Going back to 1994, I've already put Brolin in a similar ballpark in effect of course, and the others I'd bring into it would be another QF exit player Gheorghe Hagi, and one you mentioned already Roberto Baggio. Up to and including QF I would have Hagi 94 over Messi 22 I think probably (I think I said it on another thread already) but I'd in the end, because of the final games which Messi played and Hagi didn't, not put Hagi in the Romario category, and I expect you'd not be seeing Hagi 94 over Messi 22 as valid yourself anyway (given Messi did do better in 22 than 2014 in those last games). Baggio maybe I would tend to put ahead (Romario won the Golden Ball, but Baggio was better in the knockout stage I'd say), but not by a big margin for sure - like I say after perhaps some obvious ones (which for sure include Cruyff 1974 for me) it gets much of a muchness in some respects among many contenders I think, with not a big separation between them anyway. Perhaps Maldini could even come into it (I'd mention Cannavaro from 2006 similarly, as a defensive player, I think, by the way, but it gets harder to decide when factoring those in).

    From 2002 nobody else I don't think (Ronaldinho maybe the closest for me, but more in the Hazard territory at best I'm thinking). Also from 2006, except possibly Cannavaro, nobody else I think (not to say there weren't some candidates that might not be getting in the general ballpark).

    I think that covers it then. I had wondered about some more stage by stage comparisons (from the best of my recollection), for eg Bergkamp 98 or Stojkovic 90, but I've not done that but just alluded to a general conclusion in the end. In effect I'm saying that in group and early knockout stages those players and others I referred to could be ahead anyway, if you see what I'm saying, though not for every game and not by a huge margin overall.
     

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