Perfomance at the WC: Maradona `1986 vs Messi 2022?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Gregoire1, Dec 20, 2022.

?

Better perfomance

  1. Messi 2022

    7 vote(s)
    14.6%
  2. Maradona 1986

    41 vote(s)
    85.4%
  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #601 carlito86, Jan 24, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
    Ronaldos freekick taking history is obviously a tale of 2 halves

    There is the half wherein he was the best freekick taker in the world
    That half exists,that half is factual and that half cannot be taken away from him by anyone


    And then there is the half you speak of
    Still you are making inaccurate statements saying things like never and then doubling down when that is simply not true

    It is enough to say his freekick taking ability declined significantly to the point he was not even a threat from set pieces in the latter part of his career
    That is true

    Before this though he destroyed keepers from any range more frequently then any player of his generation

    Juninho is not from his generation BTW but yes Cristiano was even better then him around 2008-2010


    Lets not forget Ronaldo is top 3 freekick specialist in premier league history


    Top 3 FK specialist in la liga history


    And has the most freekicks in champions league history(12)
    Messi has half this number btw(6)

    Cristianos last freekick goal in the champions league was in 2016
    He has not added to this since 2016 and he still has twice as much as Messi


    That puts into perspective how good he was prior
    You dont mention this though so i do
     
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  2. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Interesting data. If I’m not mistaken, those ratings for Messi are just a random person’s ratings, though, right (as opposed to being an amalgamation of newspaper ratings or something)? They actually seem pretty fair overall to me, but just want to be sure what I’m looking at.

    In any event, with those scores, the overall rating for Messi is quite good but not quite as high as Maradona’s 1986 WC—which seems fair to me.
     
  3. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    The ratings are an average of at least seven newspapers or online publications, such as Gazzetta dello Sport, L'Équipe, Marca, Kicker etc. I tried to get South American ratings as well, but unfortunately without result.
     
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  4. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    At the risk of speaking for others, I don’t think the point being made was ever that Ronaldo wasn’t a good FK taker over the course of his career. The point was that he didn’t adapt and come up with a new solution when his FK strategy basically stopped working—which goes against the argument being made that Ronaldo was better at coming up with solutions to new problems.

    As a sidenote, when measuring how good a FK taker is, I think looking at sheer FK goals scored isn’t actually the best measure. Some players play on teams that get meaningfully more FKs than others. And some players share FK duties (though that fact can’t totally be ignored, since it likely means they were inferior to a teammate from certain areas). So, for instance, Lyon was a good team but I’d be quite shocked if Juninho was getting as many FK opportunities at Lyon as Ronaldo was getting for his teams (or as Messi was getting). Of course, it’s basically impossible to know how many FK opportunities various historical players had, so this is mostly just an academic point, but I do think it’s true that FK conversion rate is more important and that we can’t just assume players had equal numbers of attempts.
     
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  5. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Thanks! That’s very interesting, and is probably the most meaningful contribution to the actual topic of this thread! It’s not a perfect metric, since the specific people rating Maradona back in 1986 are not the same people (and therefore don’t necessarily have the same rating curve) as the people rating Messi in 2022. But it’s definitely really good information, and I think is consistent with the view that Messi had a great WC but not quite as good as Maradona 1986.
     
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  6. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Ronaldo was not a good freekick taker
    He was the best in the world

    Definitely in 2008/09 and 2009/10
    His last season in Manchester United and first in real Madrid
    Already showing some signs in 2007/08

    When you are talking about someone who literally mastered their craft and was at a point better at it then anyone in the world playing professional football
    You dont come to this player and start talking shit about them needing to adapt.
    Someone who reached the pinnacle has nothing to prove to anyone
     
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  7. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    I agree: Maradonas overall performance in '86 was better - if all seven games count the same. But Messi's final vs France was better than Diego's vs Germany (the semifinals vs Belgium '86 and vs Croatia '22 were both excellent).
     
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  8. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You’re just arguing off-topic semantics. No one was ever saying Ronaldo hadn’t been a great FK taker—indeed, the best in the world for a time. That wasn’t the topic of discussion. The point being made was that his FK strategy stopped working and he didn’t adapt, which goes against the argument that was being made that Ronaldo was better at finding new solutions to new problems than Messi was. Do that make him not an all-time great FK taker? No, he still is one by virtue of his earlier years. But the discussion was never about how great of a FK taker Ronaldo was. It was about whether he was somehow superior at adapting with new solutions to new problems, and the fact that he didn’t adapt when his FK technique/strategy stopped working very well goes pretty squarely against the idea that he was. You’re just arguing about something different.
     
  9. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yeah, I think an argument that Messi 2022 was better than Maradona 1986 would have to be centered to a large extent on the fact that Messi’s final was a good bit better than Maradona’s final. That sort of argument would not ultimately be all that persuasive to me, though, mostly because I don’t really value performance in a finals significantly more highly than performance in other knockout stage matches. The way I see it, all WC knockout-stage matches are against good teams that can knock you out unless you play really well, so performances in those matches all matter a lot—with a finals performance only mattering a bit more just because it’s presumably against an opponent that is even more dangerous than the others (but not that much more dangerous IMO, just because individual football matches are so random in their outcomes).
     
  10. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Did Messi have a meaningfully better performance than Diego in the final?
     
  11. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Yes, he did, but it doesn’t mean Messi’s WC was better overall.
     
  12. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Messi did have a better final performance, but I am not sure the margin is all that great. Inferior opponent and won on penalties, with an equalizing goal on a Messi dispossession, while Maradona (as Messi did), brought about the winning goal. I prefer Messi's performance as he was more active at the 2-2 mark, creating a couple goal-threatening opportunities in a difficult phase of the game - for me that gives him the edge.
     
  13. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #613 lessthanjake, Jan 24, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
    I think we’d disagree a bit about the margin in the final, but it seems we both agree that: (1) Messi’s finals performance was better than Maradona’s; and (2) that’s not enough to make Messi’s overall WC performance as good as Maradona’s. So I don’t think there’s much meaningful daylight between our views on this.

    I don’t think France was an “inferior opponent” though. France is the most talented team in the world on paper (or, at worst, 2nd to Brazil). And they were also defending champion (validating how good they were and showing championship experience), and are led by a pretty clear all-time great attacker in his prime (Mbappe). In terms of actual results, they had also outright won all their matches in normal time (leaving aside the final group stage match, which didn’t matter), while Germany 1986 had needed a penalty shootout in the QFs and had also had a pretty poor group stage (actually being outscored in the group stage). Germany had just a +2 goal differential going into the finals, while France had a +8 goal differential (and were still seen as underperforming their talent—just goes to show how great they are). To put some further numbers to it, France ended the World Cup with a 2082 elo rating, while that Germany team had a 1993 elo rating. Finally, pre-tournament betting odds had France as the 2nd favorite (while Argentina were 3rd), while Germany were 7th favorite in pre-tournament odds in 1986 (while Argentina were 2nd) (see Puck’s post here: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/whate-were-the-odds-in-the-tournaments.1945504/page-2). Arguments can be made about France having illness in the squad, but I find that all to be pretty speculative in terms of its importance/impact, and otherwise all facts/information goes in France’s favor.
     
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  14. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Watch the match. France was horrible. There was talk that a number of players had caught a virus pre match. Obviously France is a formidable opponent. But it was a walk in the park for the first 80 minutes.
     
  15. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I don’t think you can isolate how good a team looks from how well their opponent is playing—especially in an era of football where well-coordinated and relentless pressing is such a huge aspect of the game tactically. France certainly was outplayed by Argentina for a large portion of the match, but I don’t think you can necessarily say that that’s because they were bad rather than that Argentina was playing really well and making things extremely difficult for France. And that is further backed up by the fact that France’s quality eventually did show through on the night, while Argentina faded (probably in part from having used up more of their energy with relentless pressing earlier, while France had, by design, sat back a bit more).
     
  16. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    There is no indication that the 5 no. 10s tactical formation in the 1970 World Cup would work without Pele, especially since it was reportedly conceptualized in Pele’s hotel room after Pele called these players in for a meeting (Zagallo wanted a rigid and traditional 4-3-3 formation [likely with Dada Maravilha up front]; however, Pele wanted Tostao in the team, and the players decided to focus on improvisation rather than on rigid, inflexible schemes [like the 4-3-3]). It was decided that Gerson would be the focal point in the midfield (the main playmaker). Pele would be operating in the middle, creating plays, and linking up play between the midfield and attack, particularly with Tostao. Jairzinho and Rivelino would constantly interchange positions on the wing. Also, that except Tostao, they would all drop back to defend (Tostao going back to defend if needed). These roles were improvised as in their respective clubs, these players played as the ponta de lanca (true no. 10 position). In that sense, Pele took on a different role than he played in at his club. Considering Pele’s leadership and influence on this team both on and off the field, I think it is a stretch to state that the remaining key players in 1970 (Jairzinho, Gerson, Rivelino, and Tostao) could get the job done playing with someone else other than Pele.

    The 1974 squad was stacked on paper with a great goalkeeper, great defence, plus Rivelino (28 years old), Jairzinho (29 years old), Caju (25 years old), Dirceu (22 years old) etc. However, neither Rivelino nor Jairzinho could provide the required leadership. Without Pele, the team seemed rudderless.

    The 1966 squad was also impressive on paper; however, as you said, it was a mix of over the hill superstars (Bellini, Djalma Santos, Garrincha, Gilmar), future superstars not yet in their prime (Jairzinho, Tostao), and superstars in their prime (Pele; both him and Gerson were 25 years old). Again, without Pele, no one could step up to the plate (in 1962, Garrincha did). The way I see it is that without Pele and Garrincha, Brazil don't win 1958; without Garrincha, they don't win 1962, and without Pele, they don't win 1970.
     
  17. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Ok Carlito, this is obviously a touchy subject for you but I don't appreciate being misrepresented. I didn't double-down on "never", and clarified that "never" was never meant to be taken literally. I said, "he rarely deviated from his trademark power knuckle technique even when his conversion rates were horrible". This is an objective fact, and you implicitly acknowledge that Cristiano, in his period of FK decline, was not creative, innovative, or even effective in his FK taking. So I'm not sure which "inaccuracies" I am repeating. I never attacked Ronaldo's FK taking in his earlier career.

    Obviously, I don't agree with the other claims you made either, but I'm not so invested in this discussion that I care to write a detailed response. Rather, a question. On what basis was Cristiano the best FK taker in the world around 2008-2010, better than the likes of Juninho, Ronaldinho, Beckham, Pirlo, Del Piero, Nakamura, and more? Is it sheer quantity of FK goals? Is it conversion rates? Is it the diversity of FK goals?

    And I would be careful, too, equating quantity of freekicks scored in a league with an equal designation of "FK specialist in league history". By this logic, Pirlo is joint greatest FK specialist in Serie A history with Mihaljovic, as they both have 28 FK goals. But not even I will suggest this makes Pirlo clearly the greatest FK specialist in Serie A history ahead of Maradona, Zico, Platini, Baggio, Del Piero, Zola, Signori, and more.
     
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  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Firstly
    Pirlo is not the joint best freekick taker in Serie A history
    20230125_023312.JPG

    The ones who say he is are fake news outlets
    Those two extra freekick goals were actually own goals(officially)
    https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistiche_della_Serie_A#Calci_piazzati

    Secondly
    Even if he was (and he isn't) this is the worst analogy you could possibly pick

    Sinsia mihajlovic played 14 seasons in Serie A

    Andrea Pirlo played 20 seasons in Serie A

    Pirlo played 6 more seasons and registered 2 less Serie A freekicks

    Maybe that is actually the reason he isn't in the same league as mihajlovic as a FK specialist

    Thirdly
    Some of these names you mention are criminal examples

    We'll go through them though

    Cristiano Ronaldo 2008/09 & 2009/10
    12 direct freekicks
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=

    Alessandro del piero 2008/09 & 2009/10
    8 direct freekicks
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ale...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=


    Juninho pernambucano 08/09 & 09/10
    7 direct freekicks
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jun...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=


    Shunsuke nakamura 2008/09 & 2009/10

    5 direct freekicks
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/shu...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=



    Criminal examples you mentioned
    Ronaldinho gaucho 2008/09 & 2009/10
    3 direct freekicks

    Ronaldo scored 4 times as many freekicks as Ronaldinho in those seasons
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ron...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=

    David Beckham 2008/09 & 2009/10
    2 direct freekicks
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dav...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=

    Ronaldo scored 6 times as many freekicks as David Beckham in those seasons

    Andrea Pirlo 2008/09 and 2009/10
    0 direct freekicks

    Ronaldo scored 12 times as many freekicks as Andrea Pirlo in those seasons
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/and...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=


    Anymore?

    Notwithstanding this Cristiano scored his freekicks against the best GKs of his era

    Steve mandanda
    WebbedUltimateBobolink-max-1mb.gif

    Credentials
    5 times ligue 1 goalkeeper of the season (Most of all time)

    Peter cech
    20230124_155617.gif
    Credentials
    4× PL goalkeeper of the year(most of all time)



    Santiago canizarez

    Best knuckball FK of all time


    Credentials of canizarez
    Champions league best goalkeeper 2000/01

    4× la liga goalkeeper of the season(second most in la liga history)
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Zamora_Trophy




    Also scored freekicks vs
    Manuel neuer
    Jan oblak
    Thibaut courtois
    David de gea

    Maradona and Zico scored a boatload of theirs against amateur GKs in South America(Yes I said it)
    Nobody knows who these guys were
     
  19. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #619 lessthanjake, Jan 24, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
    I’ve already noted (1) that this is not relevant to the initial reason Ronaldo’s FK-taking came up; and (2) that conversion rate is what’s relevant, and we can’t be sure that players took similar numbers of FKs in any given years.

    But, leaving all that aside, I just want to correct/point out something pretty misleading in your post:

    You state that Juninho had 7 free kick goals in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010, but as evidence you link to a database that does not have any information about Juninho’s goals in the 2009-2010 season (presumably since he was playing in Qatar that season—which Transfermarkt probably doesn’t have data for). So you’re actually just citing his FK goal scoring in the 2008-2009 season—which was actually more FK goals than Ronaldo had in any season, according to that data you provided—and acting like it’s two seasons of data. Very misleading stuff.
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #620 carlito86, Jan 24, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2023
    Please cut the crap and let's get straight to the point

    Can you find me a single player who had as many freekick goals as Cristiano over the 2008/09 and 2009/10 period

    Anyone
    anywhere In Europe
    Find it and come back to me


    Goals in Qatar/Arabian league?

    you think i will waste my time looking for this?
    GTFO:ROFLMAO:

    Ronaldo destroyed the GOAT GK of Arabia al habsi when he played for Bolton
    Go look for it

    He turned the best team of Arabia al hilal into a circus back in 2007/08

    Those no name goalkeepers in qatar would've got slaughtered
    I will not waste my time looking for What juninho did or didn't do in Qatar


    I have to say the fight back against the idea that Ronaldo could possibly be the best in the world at something is fuc*ing hilarious though


    Your rep for a fake news post that got debunked in 2 seconds still exists though
    Lessthanfake suits you perfectly
     
  21. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Sigh*

    Firstly, it doesn't matter whether Pirlo has 26 official Serie A FK goals instead of 28; that was not the point. I was not aware the Serie A does not appear to officially recognize two of Pirlo's commonly attributed freekick goals. But again, it doesn't matter, and because I'm not weirdly emotionally attached to my favourite players, I won't go off on an unhinged tangent about it.

    Secondly, you make my argument for me. My whole point was that we can't infer Pirlo is a better freekick taker than the other great Serie A freekick takers simply because he has scored more. As you point out, 28 freekicks in 14 seasons is not the same as 28 (26) in 20. You need to take into consideration freekicks attempted, or if in the absence of this data, matches or seasons played. If you are logically consistent, you will apply the same scrutiny to Ronaldo's La Liga record. Which, btw, I am not even making a claim about. The point is you can't assume sheer numbers of freekicks scored makes one player a better specialist than the other.

    Thanks for accidentally proving my point, though, as this immediately calls into question the basis of your argument for claiming Cristiano was the best from 2008-2010, since you make it based solely on numbers of freekicks scored, neglecting numbers of attempts and conversion ratio, variation in angles, styles, an distances, etc... Now, that data probably isn't available, and I do think Ronaldo had good variation, at least in distances and angles, in those years. And here is the kicker... I'm okay with classifying Ronaldo as the best freekick scorer in Europe for a brief time around 2009-2010 (because that's when Juninho left, who was obviously at least as good going off his 2008-09 numbers, so making an arbitrary time period of 2008-2010 because it is the only possible way to make Cristiano's number to look better isn't indicative of their actual abilities). I'm not bothered like you seem to think I am. Although you may not notice because you are constantly seeking confrontation, I asked on what basis you considered Ronaldo the best in those years in a genuine way, assuming he already had among the highest numbers without already knowing. This is so I could understand what you value in a freekick taker. But I should have expected you would see this is as confrontational, I guess.

    Also, none of the names I gave are "criminal examples", they are all examples of historically great freekick takers. Del Piero scoring 8 in those 2 seasons, Juninho scoring 7 in one them, and Nakamura scoring 5 means that they were great freekick takers who were scoring well at time. Beckham, Pirlo, and Ronaldinho obviously weren't performing to their usual standard those two years, but their freekick ability was still there.

    Also, 12 is not 12 times more than 0. Good mathing.

    Anywho, you have deviated massively from what my original point was. Ronaldo did not demonstrate creativity, adaptability, or innovation in his freekicks after his trademark technique began to fail. This point still stands, and no wall of text about unrelated topics is going to change that. If you think this point doesn't actually stand, make an argument addressing it specifically. I'd be happy to hear it. If not, I'm not interested.
     
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  22. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    Ok, this is just plain childish. And I don't think you understand what fake news is.
     
  23. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I’m not arguing whether Cristiano Ronaldo was the best FK taker from 2008-2010—and there’s no one here who has actually argued to you that he wasn’t. You’re just seeking an argument about a very specific topic that no one is arguing with you about. The only thing I pointed out is that it was misleading for you to present stats regarding Juninho as being stats over two seasons when it actually was his stats in one season.
     
  24. Gregoire1

    Gregoire1 Member

    Dec 4, 2020
    Yea, its why I argue Messi overall was better: his finals was better, his overall perfomance in KO stages was slightly better, but group stage was worse. So overall in most important matches he was better and it matters the most.
     
  25. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    I would pretty much agree that Brazil would have struggled to win in 1958 without pele and garrincha although won't be inclined to say ar far as 'they don't win'.definitely the chance of them winning, especially beating France would've been less than 50% for sure. I don't agree with your take on the 1974 squad. You have implied as if Pele's absence made all the difference for them which isn't true.vastly different side it was to the 1970 one and anyone I think would agree that 74 was a inferior one.pele,tostao,gerson,carlos Alberto, clodoaldo, everaldo,brito all were absent this time. Only superior spot to me was goalkeeping(leao).great defense?! Not convinced.one more point I should make is that they were quite unlucky against netherlands in the sense Netherlands should have been given 3-4 send offs for abysmal rough play in that ugly match. Brazil responded with bad fouls too and would've been fair for the ref to show them 1-2 red cards I think.anyway in the end, I guess we have to agree to disagree about pele's influence on the outcome of 1970.
     

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