Perfetto, the Return of Carletto! - Benvenuto Carlo Ancelotti

Discussion in 'Real Madrid' started by MiamiNative0722, Jun 1, 2021.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Nathanial Essex

    Nathanial Essex Member+

    Real Madrid
    England
    Mar 19, 2017
    We're a pretty poor club at seamless transitions. It's always the case that we have a good run and then are suddenly smacked with a poor season and scramble to fix it.
     
  2. fierro

    fierro Member+

    Jan 30, 2007
    El Chuco
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Real Madrid is the best club in the world and our academy is the envy of every pueblo and village in the world.
     
  3. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yes, he lost some of his magic this season. But he won the Double only a year ago. You talked as if he won nothing in ages.
     
  4. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Being into innovation and analytics isn't a sign of quality or ability.

    Arsenal have a 25 man coaching staff only to outspend and underachieve every season. A corner kick coordinator, a defensive structure coordinator, a passing game coach, a chief analyst, a chief opponent scouting analyst. You name it.

    End of the season, a Dutch baldy takes on Liverpool and wins the title right away.
     
    rrrrrafik and PigBenis repped this.
  5. Ahmadi8

    Ahmadi8 Member+

    Apr 14, 2005
    Bahrain
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    Did the baldy have staff supporting him?
     
  6. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Of course, everybody does, but nobody has gone all in on the modern analytics era as arsenal. There's goal celebrations from corner kicks where the "corner kick offensive coordinator" celebrates as if he scored the goal himself, it's pretty funny.

    I think, like Nagelsmann who is of a similar micromanaging and over coaching brand, that's the main reason Arteta can't understand defeat. When you get so bogged down in all the analytics and numbers the result become a math test, not a game that's being played so any other result than what you calculated for is just wrong.
     
    PigBenis, Bear Crotch and petros93 repped this.
  7. Raul-7

    Raul-7 Member+

    Real Madrid
    Spain
    Aug 17, 2006
    Of course it isn't a math exam, nor is it a Futsal tournament. ;)

    The game has advanced to where analytics do matter as they can reveal key weaknesses within the tactics, gameplay, squad, etc or analyze the upcoming opponents, key weaknesses, how other teams managed to break them down, etc.

    Instead we got a whole season of the manager promising we will improve the next game or how great we played despite squeezing a 1-0 victory against minnows Alaves.
     
    Hendrix22 repped this.
  8. MerlinRM

    MerlinRM Member+

    May 5, 2014
    Georgia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I don't necessarily think analytics would have saved Carlo nor is it a big deal.

    I bring up his book every once in a while, Quiet Leadership because it gives a great behind the scenes look at how Carlo thinks when managing.

    Sadly, some of his methods are just a bit outdated in an era where there are many games and trophies to play for.
     
    Xourtois repped this.
  9. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The idea that we don't use analytics is silly by the way and there is a very practical example to show this, it's the Arsenal match.

    You have a player that last scored a free kick during the Raegan administration, and a team that's very dangerous scoring from headers and dead ball situations.

    Tactically you lighten the wall and focus on packing the target area. You defend well and afterwards everybody pats each other on the back what amazing process that was and how you used the available information to your advantage.

    That guy scored not one but two free kicks on the same night, we're talking likelihood of 1/1500 here and despite doing all the process stuff correctly, you feel like a total idiot.

    There's no chance somebody from an analytical/possibility analysis point of view will tell you "the guy that NEVER even attempts it, will not only suddenly do so, but score TWICE".

    We processed everything purely from a possibility/chance perspective. If Carlo would've been stuck with "I post my free kick wall the way I like it and it works for 30 years darnit", maybe we would've Actually prevented those. It's mad.

    When I see guys like Guardiola or Arteta beat themselves in disbelief in the bench I think this is what you see in real time. The realization that those 1,8% chance things actually happen.
     
    petros93 repped this.
  10. Akramzizou

    Akramzizou Member+

    Feb 13, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There's a whole world of analysts being deep in stats and data, and trying to find meaning in randomness. Nassim Taleb wrote a few books about that, like Fooled By Randomness. Soccer has so much randomness and variability, a couple of our recent CL wins cannot be explained by any logic.
     
    PigBenis and Bear Crotch repped this.
  11. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yeah, that perfectly explains the Rice free kick experience. The guy might go on to never score one in the next 6 years but somehow dropped two of them on the same night.
     
  12. Ahmadi8

    Ahmadi8 Member+

    Apr 14, 2005
    Bahrain
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    I'm not the biggest fan of analytics playing based on statistics etc. But I can understand the game evolution may require set piece coaches.
    I'm not sure you need an expert for every type of set piece though. :p Is that what Arsenal actually have?
     
  13. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Several Premier League teams have a huge staff. There's no reason a team needs 30 freaking coaches.

    I remember Heidenheim making fun of Leverkusen saying Leverkusen have more people making them coffee than Heidenheim have on their total employee list.
     
    Ahmadi8 repped this.
  14. Ahmadi8

    Ahmadi8 Member+

    Apr 14, 2005
    Bahrain
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    Premier League teams have insane squad numbers too, maybe that justifies the insane number of coaches.
    La Liga still has the 25 maximum number of first team players. Wonder if that needs to change since the number of games has increased from existing or new competitions.
     
  15. arcane

    arcane BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Aug 18, 2005
    Philippines
    #5240 arcane, May 19, 2025
    Last edited: May 19, 2025
    Analytics is a tool. Not the end all be all.

    But a coach has to prepare his team to have the best chance of winning. And analytics is a great tool for that task.

    No sane coach would purposely setup his team to go down a goal then win the game via remontadas for example even if hypothetically the analytics say so.

    But make no mistake, any manager should have this fully at his disposal.
     
    hector_br repped this.
  16. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    A lot of Spanish teams struggle to pay the players and staff on time, I believe there was an anonymous survey that covered the first two tiers of Spanish football and the number of employees to experience delays or absence of pay was shockingly high.
     
  17. Ahmadi8

    Ahmadi8 Member+

    Apr 14, 2005
    Bahrain
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahrain
    Smaller teams won't be participating in the bigger competitions therefore won't have the same amount of games. They can choose to register players based on their budget, probably fill the remaining slots with players from their youth systems. Unless you're referring to Barcelona, we already know they do what they want and don't face any repercussions.
     
  18. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I think it was about 38% across both divisions of players and staff having their wages withheld or not paid across both divisions, in the 20s for the first division. In particularly bad cases it was for over 3 months in a row.

    The player union has often proposed a strike in Spain but the clubs respond that not making any money won't make them capable of paying any faster.

    In other countries that number is closer to 50%. Having your pizza delivered by a guy that plays football on tv is pretty eye opening.
     
  19. Hendrix22

    Hendrix22 Member+

    Feb 28, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    And thats why having a better coach matters. Ancelotti might have 100 times the career Slot did, but Slot is a better coach in the present. In fact hes the prime example of the forward thinking type of coach I was talking about, I didnt say who uses analytics more is better.


    We know the flukey context of that double. The writing was on the wall. We squeezed out those titles but we played the same disjointed incoherent football. Adding Mbappe confirmed Carlo cannot foster structure and cohesion, so its the right time to give it to someone for whom there is evidence he can.
     
    Halycon, Raul-7 and hector_br repped this.
  20. hector_br

    hector_br Member+

    Feb 13, 2007
    Carlo excels when working with experienced players. We no longer have the KCM or the BBC trios that require no coaching at all. Instead, we have young players who can't afford to sit on the bench and need more than just a sense of family. They need development. That's not Carlo's business.
     
  21. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #5246 4x4s, May 19, 2025
    Last edited: May 19, 2025
    Is he a better coach than Klopp? Because using the same line of thinking, Liverpool upgraded the position significantly

    So does Slot going zero titles next season make his title a fluke?


    More new coaches failed than succeeded by the way.
     
  22. Hendrix22

    Hendrix22 Member+

    Feb 28, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    You think Klopp's ideas are outdated? I'd disagree, imo his system asked a lot of his players so they were physically and mentally drained after many years of that, therefore a change was needed. Its similar with Ancelotti, his way ultimately reached a ceiling here similar to Klopp at Liverpool. But whose prospects for the future are better? Klopp without a doubt, so this type of gotcha argument youre offering here is just obstinacy.

    Xabi taking over Ancelotti is similar to Slot taking over Klopp, so hopefully we will see the same resurgence by the team.
     
    Raul-7 repped this.
  23. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Klopp chose retirement.

    At the end of the day the quality of the hire is decided by the results on the field.
     
    Excape Goat repped this.
  24. Galatico

    Galatico Member+

    Real Madrid
    United States
    Aug 15, 2019
    The debate wages on in here!
     
  25. 4x4s

    4x4s Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 26, 2006
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    It's all hypothetical really. Losing is bad no matter how you come to that conclusion.
     
    Galatico repped this.

Share This Page