Yes I know. They gave Brazilian club teams a 'rebate' in the early 70s to make it more attractive for them. In some 1960s years, all Brazilian clubs dropped out together (I read that their FA regarded the NT also as more important). Would you say that Pelé his legacy is particularly great in international club competitions? Like Copa Libertadores? In 1962 Pelé played in 4 of 11 games; in the final vs Penarol he played 'only' in the decider (scoring 2 goals though, footage is on YT even). There was some major incident in the 2nd game back then (otherwise Santos had won the finals outright without decider match).
Well, his record in Copa Libertadores is 17 goals in 14 matches. An extraordinary one, i said. http://www.rsssf.com/players/players-in-copalib.html His Lib. stats 1962-65: (game/goals) 1962 - 4/4 (2 games half time) 1963 - 4/5 1964 - 0/0 1965 - 7/8 Someone, can argue that he played when it matters, only failing vs Peñarol in the 1965 SF contest. But, against mighty Peñarol!!! So, answering your question and based on stats and impact. Yes, i think Pelé played according the expectations at intl. club level in both Libertadores and Intercontinental.
Yes, but there is something I dont understand about it. This is what RSSSF says about it: 2nd leg. Villa Belmiro, Santos, 2- 8-1962 Santos - Peñarol 2-3 18' Sasía 0-1 27' Dorval 1-1 49' Spencer 1-2 50' Mengalvio 2-2 73' Spencer 2-3 Santos: Gilmar, Lima, Mauro, Dalmão, Zito, Calvet, Dorval, Mengalvio, Pagão, Coutinho, Pepe. Peñarol: Maidana, Lezcano, Cano, E.González, Matosas (Gonçálvez), Caetano, Fernández Carranza, Rocha, Sasía, Spencer, Joya. Referee: Robles (Chile) Attendance: 30,000 NB: officially only 51 minutes were played, since then serious incidents took place; the remaining 39 minutes were based on an unofficial basis and also included a third Santos' goal by Pagão. If only 51 minutes were official and the remaining 39 were not, how come Spencer's goal in the 73rd minute counted but not Pagão's? How do you understand this? What am I missing?
The minutes of the goals are not correct. Spencer scored his 2nd goal early in the 2nd half, that's sure.
Oh, ok. Wiki does say Spencer scored his second goal in the 49th minute. Who would have thought wiki has it right and RSSSF wrong, go figure... Do you happen to know what the major incident was?
Yes, wrote that part down earlier. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...pele-and-neymar.1987992/page-12#post-28363365 In any case, the record books and papers of that time state that Spencer scored his 2nd goal in the early minutes of the 2nd half. In a way also a strange decision to declare one part of the match 'official' and another part unofficial, at hindsight. Rather than cancelling the game in entirety or so.
well to be honest Pele EXCEEDED anyone's expectation... with those consistency great form in all big competition. No wonder, brilliant Cruijff had to cite: " Pele is the only player whose stats is surpassed the boundary of logic"
Look at one of the comment about PELE (at 33-34yrs old) in NY Cosmos : When Pele and Cosmos were kings Thirty years ago today, the world's greatest player landed in New York. Soccer was suddenly the hottest ticket in town The Guardian, Thursday 9 June 2005 20.45 EDT Like Toye, Bradley was an Englishman who had been with the Cosmos from their inception in 1970. After an unspectacular playing career that had taken him from Sunderland to Bradford Park Avenue and on to Carlisle United, he now found himself coaching the greatest player in the history of the game. "It was a joy ride," he recalls. "I remember the first practice. A cross went behind Pele's head and he was running toward the goal. He jumped up in the air and did a bicycle kick, and scored. The press couldn't believe it. I ended the practice right then." The Cosmos squad also had trouble adjusting to the fact they were now sharing a pitch with Pele. "The biggest challenge for us," explains Werner Roth, then captain, "was not stopping and watching him play." ============================================== I never heard Pipen and his teams would "stop and try to watch Jordan playing" -Nor that Jordan games could ever STOP any WAR in the world !
Today I hear nothing else than that Ayrton Senna was the greatest Formula One driver in history. Some time ago I made a sketchy list, that did not feature racing drivers because of the question whether it can be fully considered a sport (the Olympics doesn't think so). But can Senna be placed among the top pantheon of sports figures? Like Jordan, Muhammed Ali. That is what some seem to think. Elevated to the highest echelons of iconic figures. Another one with three championships, Jackie Stewart, doesn't think so: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ccused-deliberately-crashing-Alain-Prost.html http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2014/apr/30/ayrton-senna-death-formula-one-20-years Maybe the most interesting thing to think of: with which football player can he be compared? It seems that some 'stock characters' re-appear in any sport.
You've heard wrong. So far, Alain Prost is. It's not a sport because motor racing is a "motorsport" Get what I'm saying? Driving is just as legitimate a skill as any applied in football. Yes he can.
Seems that Pelé liked it though, at least initially. "Moreover, the new forward pairing of Pelé and Chinaglia proved a potent combination, with each player doing his utmost to demonstrate (to the other as much as the management, the media and the fans) that he was the leading light of the Cosmos side. The result was an empathetic 6-0 victory, with Pelé and Chinaglia both scoring twice and Keith Eddy adding the other two, both from the penalty spot. 'This kind of rivalry is something I'd like to have for all the games,' said Pelé after the game." Page 84.
Yeah, it was all good until it reached a breaking point. Seems to me Pele needed to be both the best player and leading scorer of the team (like at Santos), and didn't seem too happy later on when Chinaglia was scoring more than him.
not really ... Pele was a "team player" (he never cares who score more then him like Coutino did well in some seasons, or like Jairzinho was main striker for WC70) while it was Chinaglia who was jealous and did not want to play as a shadow of "old Pele". Chinaglia was a very good striker, but next to Pele (even at older age , he was like a "Fred" next to a "Neymar" now in Brazil team - At time in the 70's Pele was a KING with no dispute, he had nothing to prove more nor to show off more ... on pitch
In a November 1980 World Soccer issue there is a profile about the Napoli football club. It's interesting that at that time there was apparently no shortage of funds, but a shortage of credibility. "President Corrado Ferlaino was subjected to personal, business and political attacks; Vinicio tried twice to resign and even then nearly failed the second time; a string of foreign players - Hrubesch, Brady, Kist, Ardiles, Allofs, Zico, Cerezo, Renquin, Obermayer and Socrates - all said a polite "No thank you" to approaches to become Napoli's first "new era" foreigner." That was when the borders re-opened in 1980 (one foreigner per team allowed). Eventually they got Krol, but initially only for six months on loan (until April 1981, when the new NASL season started).
Also @JamesBH11 James mentioned Best and Cruijff at NASL in the other thread, here some great articles about that. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1091332/2/index.htm http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1095079/2/index.htm That are rather short but dense ones. This one of Chinaglia is longer. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094961/1/index.htm Did not read it entirely but I noticed what he said about Pelé and co, LOL LOL
OK let me resume for everyone, and YES that confirmed his "jealousy" with Pele in front as a threat to his credits (!) on top, he was even jealous to a "Beckenbauer" -- enjoy the reading in HIGHLIGHT Although Chinaglia won the 1976 league scoring title with those 19 goals in 19 games, he didn't make much of a dent in the hearts of the fans or in the press because at the time attention was focused on Pelé. When Pelé reported for training the following year, he was grossly out of shape, and Chinaglia fumed, "He may be a legend, but right now he's just one more player I have to carry until he's in shape." When Beckenbauer, the classic German sweeper back and one of the great names in soccer, joined the team, Chinaglia blurted, "He won't put fans in the stands. We've already got a sweeper and he doesn't score goals. I think we should have used the money for American players or Cruyff [the Dutch World Cup hero]. Cruyff scores goals at least." Chinaglia predicted that Beckenbauer would play at midfield, even though he had starred at the sweeper position. Many thought that Chinaglia was talking through his hat. Beckenbauer played midfield. And the Cosmos are dickering with Cruyff. Don't doubt with Chinaglia. Coach Gordon Bradley and Chinaglia fell out almost immediately that year because Chinaglia wanted Pelé pulled further back out of his way so that he could score more goals. Pelé stayed up front, where he wanted to be. And the goals didn't come for Chinaglia. Tony Cirino, an Italian soccer expert who had followed Chinaglia's career, said, "They're ruining him. They don't get the ball to him enough, and they use him as a decoy, to take two or three defenders away from the flow. It's like taking a great operatic soprano and making her sing 'Happy Birthday.' " Chinaglia brooded and worried. He confided to friends that by the end of the season, Bradley and Toye would be gone. Toye snapped, "Pelé and Beckenbauer are living bloody legends. Chinaglia is lazy, moody and virtually uncoachable." "I'm uncoachable, it's true," Chinaglia fired back, "that's because I know more than the stupid coaches. That's, how you say, presumptuous? It's true." The Cosmos were in a shambles, limping along, the heady brew of egos, nationalities and disparities kept at the boil by Chinaglia.
well Chinaglia "thought" he was like a Puskas or Eusebio (before his time) in talent, and worst of all that was combined with a huge ego of a Romario and Maraodna (in later time) but he forgot one thing: no one could have told Pele what to do on pitch - even his coaches
Gotta have some understanding for Chinaglia though. He was one of the top goalgetters in Serie A at the time (top scorer in 74), then he joined Cosmos and was top scorer right away. Happens to be so that then he was not in 77 (when the complaints surged) and then a bunch of times after Pelé retired for good. That doesnt exactly make it look as if he was ranting for no reason, does it? I guess he gave a damn the whole circus was mounted around Pelé and that all the glory had to be for the Brazilian. In any case, this Chinaglia issue does not align with some statements Pelé has made in the recent past. I have seen him say things like that Zidane is the player that most resembled him in the last years, or that if he was a player today and played for Spain his role would be that of Xavi... And then he loves to talk about how people think of him as a striker but that in reality he was not and how he had in the 1970 WC three players playing in front of him and such. I find this to be a bunch of intentionally misleading bs, but I am sure some people will grab a spoon and eat that crap happily. So, there is an old Pele saying he was not a striker, but a playmaker with several men in front of him in 1970 for instance, but then you have Chinaglia saying Pelé kept coming forward instead of passing him the ball... Strange.
Seems to be kinda true. It's understandable but Pelé flew business class and Warner lent him their private jet. The others flew economy class (initially). He had a room for himself while the others slept with two on one room. Chinaglia also discovered that he was paid way less than Pelé. In Italia (for Lazio) Chinaglia was paid around 80000 dollar a year, that made him (likely) the best paid player of the Italian league btw. At Cosmos Pelé received 1 million dollar per year (in total around 5 million for 3 years, which was more as his whole 18 year career at Santos!). Chinaglia received about 1/8th of Pelé his annual salary. As comparison: the highest paid baseball player, Hank Aaron, was paid 200000 dollar a season at that time. One of the goals was obviously to let Pelé flourish as good as possible and from his perspective it might be said that Chinaglia lacked some flexibility (Pelé played at his debut as a kind of midfielder, as one can see, but it's obvious that Pelé felt after a few games that his team-mates passed the ball too often to him). Seems that it wasn't the first time Pelé had a conflict about tactics and his role; in 1966 the Santos manager/coach 'Lula' departed after he had some working disagreements with Pelé, it seems (about Pelé his role, team tactics and career trajectory).
That "they pass me the ball to often" thing also seems strange to me. A player of his category complaining for having too much contact with the ball... Do you happen to know specifics about the Lula in 1966 issue?
That's an opinion to have. For a forward it's often good to not have it too often in your feet, or that all balls flow route-one towards you... I understand the idea, but it puts question marks around the 'Pelé was a playmaker' theory, though, and makes it uncertain that he liked to be a midfielder (as a forward one sees naturally less of the ball and one will score goals...). I think also Zidane (with whom Pelé compares himself apparently) did not want to have the ball all the time. But yeah, I think Pelé was not like Zidane in role, TBH (with Chinaglia on the field). Chinaglia was benched a few times in 1977 as you know; Pelé played at his old forward role back then. Nope. Not in a accurate/correct way at least.