Talking about assists, they are just evidence to show a player's in effectiveness to the games. They are tangible but not a clear criterion to determine player X better than player Y in such regard. Even goals are grey (tap-ins vs solo run all counted as 1 goal) and assists would be more greyish (for example which one is more important, or greater assist? a pass after a great solo run, a good thruball, a precised long pass, a good freekick, or a simple lay off ...) So enjoy the game and ignore the stats maybe wise as a "club/team supporter", ut what about a specific player support? In other hand, number is good (tangible) but sometimes it is misleading ... nothing is black and white, and football is far from that. I guess that makes it more "mythical" (among all sports) and joyful to watch (most fans of all sports). ====================================================== Having said that, it does not matter (much) if Zico, Pele made more assists than Maradona, Zidane (or Laudrup). It matters how they draw and get people buying into their play ! (Zidane is a best example for this: his goals and assist are shy compared to other greats) Back to Laudrup, he was a "gifted" player who had everything to become among the greatest ... somehow he just could NOT maintain his greatness (consistently) and NOR he could have made a BIG impact to last in people mind: The closest and key year in his career was 91-92 season: - Won a trebble: Liga, Spanish cup and UCL and named as best Liga player! - BUT ... only IF he played and shone at Euro92! Too bad he left the team and ironically they won the tournament-
Best was a great dribbler, arguably the best dribbler in Europe history. I am not so sure if Best was better dribbler than Pele in overall cases! At close pace (STATIC) Best was better than Ronaldo (but given a bit more pace especially in a DYNAMIC run, Ronaldo and Cruijff would beat Best) so they are about same scale depend on your taste. He is betetr than Zico and Laudrup, Zidane in this regard. In dribbling only of this group: 1- Garrincha 2- Maradona 3- Pele = Best 4- Ronaldo = Cruijff 5- Zico 6- Laudrup BEST (and Garrincha ) were TOP5 alltimes candidates in skillset, HOWEVER ... they both could not maintain their "BEST" form long enough (only a few years), on top of the fact Best could not perform in WC/Euro level (to seal his greatness) - Blame and shame on their love for alcohol and girls.
Spot on post Vegan, in term's of being an agressive passer and looking for a direct assist, Laudrup was one of the best in recent time's. Also like you said he had an abilty to involve and enhance other player's around him. Well I think it's also a matter of unfortunate circumstances for Laudrup in term's of his nationality. In retrospect Laudrup may have been part of that great Danish generation in the 80's but without any silverware to speak off. He did manage to lead Denmark over an underachieving Nigeria(France 98') only to go out to Brazil in the Quarter's. Like you touched on, if Laudrup had played a role in Denmark's greatest triumph at Euro 92' his all time ranking would look a lot more different.
Best was an excellent dribble, top five of all time for sure. Maradona over Garrincha, where is the Brazilian's goal similar to Diego's second against England, or his second against Belgium even? Greatest dribblers of all time: Maradona Garrincha Best Messi Puskas Sivori
I'd tend to agree on the first two points but on your list I'd feel Cruyff has to be ahead of at least the last 3 (although I'm not as familiar with Sivori; ditto Garrincha to an extent though I've seen enough to get a decent idea). I'd also probably have Pele, M.Laudrup, Zico and Ronaldo (to name players mentioned in this thread already) as better dribblers than Puskas although I guess you're considering his imaginative tricks and close control and suchlike - he was surely one of the best in this regard, although I'm not sure he was in terms of pure dribbling. As elusive as Messi can be and as good as he dribbles with his low centre of gravity, close control and acceleration Cruyff could go both ways equally comfortably and frequently and was better at twisting and turning etc too I think. It's a difficult topic to be definitive about but I'd say Maradona, Cruyff and Best might be the best dribblers (the latter two more balanced dribbling both sides but Maradona unique in certain aspects; Pele would have the advantage closer to goal arguably with his feints, tricks etc but I don't think he was as good as those 3 with slaloming dribbles from deep).
Garrincha did usually pass 10players in his days .. not only 4,5 like Maradona in that case. Sivori (vvery good but not top10) ? and Puskas? yeah right they showed HOW MUCH you know of players. another high level of expose yourself ... You are best talking of Messi, agree LOL
As far as keeping the ball under close control, while dissecting defenders, he rivals all of them. Agreed. I’ve mentioned this in a previous post, there’s different classification of assists, and we all have to look at the entire frame of events, not just count numbers. Having said that, PuckVanHeel was interested in seeing these images of assists, so I’ve opened a Youtube account and will publish them. Perhaps an exaggeration, but he was a teaser. In any event, there’s more footage of Diego, and he was unparalleled in this regard. When you can destroy defenders not only in domestic leagues in South America and Europe, but burn them on the world’s centre stage, then it’s no fluke, but a reality.
I opened a Youtube account for this using username Vegan1011, since that was the only availabe username, since Vegan10 is taken. Here’s the 87/88 Serie A season of assists: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HetI-tcaZrY"]Maradona assists 87-88 Serie A.avi - YouTube[/ame] As previously mentioned: 87/88 10 assists Napoli 2-1 Ascoli 1 assist Napoli 1-1 Roma 1 assist Napoli 1-4 AC Milan 1 assist Napoli 4-0 Fiorentina 2 assists Napoli 2-0 Cesena 1 assist Napoli 2-1 Pisa 1 assist Napoli 1-2 Roma 1 assist Napoli 3-0 Como 1 assist Napoli 1-3 Juventus 1 assist Next I will upload the assists for the 88/89 season.
Yes, I overlooked Cruyff who also belongs in there. I don't think Pele has an advantage in dribbling over Maradona anywhere on the pitch. Garrincha probably passed ten players against third-rate competition in the state championships in Brazil - the same tournaments where Pele tallied most of his goals. At the WC or Copa America, Garrincha couldn't do anything as breathtaking as Maradona's goals against England or Belgium. Sivori is definitely top ten, the best dribbler of his generation, while Puskas brought innovations to the art of dribbling, also merits him a place. I'll take a look at them soon..in the mean time, WOW that's some great work and thank you!
Ronaldo 9 and Pele were better then Messi at dribbling, they should be in that list. Neymar is nearly as good as Messi in dribbling, plus Neymar is a two footed player. Neymar should surpass Messi in dribbling soon. He still hasnt proved himself in Europe. but im sure he will go down in the same list as Pele, Zico, Ronaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho. And Next is Neymar.
Maybe Pele, but definitely not Ronaldo...Messi has considerable more close control of the ball, which to me is the essence of dribbling (I don't rate the likes of Henry, Claudio Lopez, etc as great dribbles since they relied on exploiting open space with their speed primarily). Ronaldo required lots more space than Messi to get pass an opponent. As far as Neymar, we'll see but I don't think he'll match Messi's dribbling.
Messi's primary asset is his balance I think (you can argue that a good dribbler tries to evade body contact...). Messi uses frequent touches of the ball but that is not necessarily the best technique. Long strides with your legs such as Cruyff and Pelé did (and also Henry) is not an inferior way of treating the ball, but also not superior.
I have to disagree, to me that's not even dribbling. Watch Messi's one-two move against Scholes in the 07-08 CL return match (at Old Trafford), to me that is the very essence of superb dribbling. By the way, I see that move as an innovation in dribbling by Messi alongside Garrincha's bicycle pedal, Cruyff's half-turn, Zidane's "veronique", and Ronaldinho's elastico.
This one? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThlOCCIfm2Q"]Messi skill vs Man Utd - CL 2008 - YouTube[/ame] Isn't that also a move which Laudrup often used?
You made me laugh! That messi's turn was used by countless players before, way back to Di Stefano, to Cruiff, to Laudrup, Baggio, Romario, Ronaldo Henry ... to name a few. Even Rooney, Donovan, Persie, Walcott all did that several times ... What the hell is Zidane's veronique? What his wife doing here? You meant Zidane's roulette? well even that was a Cruijff turn enhanced into Maradona's 360. (not sure if any player used before Diego, but any called it like that) Ronaldinho did NOT invent the elastico! It was Rivelino's trademark back in late 60's. Ronaldo9 did do a "reverse elastico" as much more difficult for your info! Your weakness in dribbling knowledge and observation needs more time to watch and absorb ...
Here is Garrincha's quote from one of the BEST ever DF in football history: "He can dribble twenty players before scoring! – Nilton Santos, Brazilian " Now if N.Santos had already exaggerated, and I did cut the number by HALF rolleyes LOL I am sure you also know the story how Garrincha got called up to play "professional" for Brazil club: - At time, Garrincha was playing for a local "factory" (where he used to work and got fired - but then being called back for the owner loved football and wanted him to play for his team) - Then a few players (Bortafogo) seen him played there, amazed and refered to their coach. Garrincha was called up and tested against N.Santos, arguably the best DF in Brazil at time (in skills). Garrincha passed him several times including a famous NUTMEG - which N.Santos was never got in his professional life! N.Santos Said to the coach: "we'd better play along side Garrincha than against him" ! After several games in the league, N.Santos BOUGHT his full ability and convinced Brazil NT coach to call him (at WC58). That's story! In real life, I had chance discussing with some old pals (football mania and experts who had watched them live) in Brazil about Garrincha (in a very serious and long debate between him and Pele) , and they all confirmed Garrincha in his best day (good mood) he could had teased up everyone (10,11) on the pitch- no matter in training or in a competition as Garrincha was "infantile" like (low IQ as a child) to remember who is who (DF or MF or FW) - to Garrincha the opponents are all but a "Jao" (same name, same type) Too bad garrincha footage was so rare ... ======================================= Of course Maradona is a "real deal" in every skillset to play football! No doubt in my book: he is #1 playmaker/AM, 2nd in dribbling, 3rd in freekick.
One of the last original dribble that I saw was Romario´s 180º. he did this movement against alkorta(real madrid) and during his PSV years. in spain, people called this "cola da vaca". [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_oFYo_hlFY"]Barcelona x Real Madrid - Gol do Romário - YouTube[/ame]
Yes, that's the one. Messi has refined it ever since, where it takes place in the space of a couple of tiles. Never saw Laudrup do it. Messi's is not a turn, I don't think you know what I'm talking about. It's a tippy-toe move using both feet, and none of the players you mentioned above ever did it in WC or CL competition. And the veronique refers to the Spanish bullfighthing move (veronica), which Zidane employed in his dribbles (yes, same as the roulette). Unless you can show a goal at the WC by Garrincha that has more dribbles than Maradona's against England or against Belgium, we all know who is the king of dribbling.
(Well ... somehow I wrote "turn" instead of "move)! OF course, I know what you meant (especially Puck had put up the clip) and watched Messi every weekend. - At least 25-40 players had used that move as it is not difficult but rather a "simple trick" ! Equivalent, Instead of using 2 legs (clumsy and slower) the elastico employed just one leg = faster, more efficient to fool player, but of course it required a special skillset and GOOD practice ... as not many could do it seamlessly! Alot of players could do Maradona's 360 or (for younger fans = Zidane's roulette) just in last decades:Baggio, Cantona, Ronaldo9, Okocha, Kaka, Ibra, Ronaldinho, Henry, Eto'o, Robinho, CR7, Xavi, van Persie, Robben ... that I saw ======================================= Lastly you don;t have to repeat that "Maradona goal vs England and Belgium" as a bible for dribbling skills. That's SO NAive to say such! To measure up a "great dribbler" it takes "STATS" (number of successful run and pass) and careful analysis (by watching slow motion of each moves) and also WHO and WHERE they made them! Maradona did NOT make his name great by just those two great goals! OK? Now I can tease by Using your "logic" to against your claim of Messi's good in dribble: SHOW me when Messi could dribble great in a WC like Owaian Saeed (vs Belgium at WC94) and I believe he is a great dribbler! Yeah right, almost everyone knows "who is the king in dribble" (Garrincha) but not you! NO coincidence, almost EVERY website claimed Garrincha as "best dribbler" in history, NOT a single site did claim such for Maradona - despites of his "advantage" (as your example) of the 2 solo goals at WC86!
To elaborate this a bit: important is total control of the ball. It is anticipation. In tight spaces footspeed is important but Cruyff and Henry (to a lesser extent) had this. But when you are getting pace, it makes as equally sense to use long strides. It was Henry's speciality to use his long strong legs and then suddenly stop and turn (most defenders could not cope with that). Frequent, repeated and regular touches of the ball is not the only route to become the best dribbler. Anticipation is the most important asset in this respect (both in terms of the movement of the ball and the movement of the opponents).
The Messi one-two tippytoes, done at such a speed, is an innovation by Messi. Show me where others have done it prior to Messi if it's so common. As for Maradona, maybe these are Brazilian sites, that claim Garrincha as the best dribbler ever. I agree he is one of the greatest, probably #2, but he cannot touch Maradona. And you are wrong to claim those are just two goals that Maradona happened to score...those two goals, especially the one against England, could have only been scored by Maradona. No other player ever had the self-confidence AND talent (these mix of the two) to even attempt it. Maradona knew only he could pull it off (not Garrincha, not Pele, not Cruyff, not Zico, not Best, none of them), and he saved it against the MOST HATED ENEMY. Anyways, Garrincha was a more limited player than Maradona, which is why he had to rely more on his dribbles - by far his extreme forte. Does not mean he was a better dribbler than Maradona.
Here is an article (no clip available) about Garrincha's passing 5,6 players before scoring goal - note against one of the best team in Europe at that time Fiorentia 1958: " The Little Bird's defining moment didn't come at a World Cup, though it did arrive while he was wearing a canary-yellow Brazil shirt. Before the 1958 tournament, A Seleção played a warm-up friendly against Fiorentina. La Viola had been runners-up in Serie A that season, losing European Cup finalists the year before, and Scudetto winners the season before that. A crack side. So, anyway, Garrincha sauntered past four of them, sashayed round the keeper, stood with the ball on the line in front of an open goal, and waited for someone to come back and attempt to stop him scoring. When a defender, face as purple as his shirt, finally took the bait and charged in, Garrincha simply evaded another desperate lunge, rolled the ball into the net, flicked it up, tucked it under his arm like a newspaper, and went strolling back to the centre circle while whistling a jaunty cocktail-jazz trill." http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2010/oct/15/the-joy-of-six-great-dribbles ============================================== Garrincha was a nightmare for defense players - they did not mind if Garrincha pass them and score goals, they GOT EMBARRASSED in front of thousands fans! " .. Garrincha's markers would sometimes ask to be substituted and in the deciding game of the 1957 Carioca Championship, when Botafogo overwhelmed an all-star Fluminense side 6-2 to seize the title, Tele Santana famously begged Nilton Santos: "You are already the champions. Please tell Garrincha to stop embarrassing our players." " http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=674278.html and ... The phenomenon that was Garrincha transcended football, with the player figuring unwittingly in the works of many Latin American writers. Eduardo Galeano, one of the continent's most eminent writers and a self-confessed football lover described him in Soccer in Sun and Shadow: "When he was on form, the pitch became a circus. The ball became an obedient animal, and the game became an invitation to party. Garrincha would shield his pet, the ball, and together they would conjure up some wonderful tricks that would have the spectators in stitches. He would hop over her, and she would bounce over him. Then she would hide before he would escape only to find her already running in front of him. Along the way, his pursuers would crash into each other in their attempts to stop him."
I find that it happened exactly like this very hard to belive, especially with the cartoonish description given. Anyways, you would see some outrageous stuff in those club vs NT friendlies that won't happen in a real WC match.
Yep, Laudrup even scored a couple of goals after using it. In this video he performs it (la Croqueta in Spanish I think) a few times early on and throughout and scores goals using it from about 6:20. There's also a 360-turn against Scotland around the same point. I'm not sure if he invneted the Croqueta as such but it was a common move for him and think it was known as the 'Laudrup dribble' although he does dribble without it sometimes as can be seen on the video too: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R5VYrSVfeM"]Michael Laudrup Dribble & Skill Compilation - YouTube[/ame] I think players probably performed zig-zag type dribbling before Laudrup when going between opposition players but I suppose this is a bit different as it is switched between both feet so quickly. Iniesta now uses it quite a bit and I remember Bryan Roy used it for Forest in about '94. As for Rivelino's Elastico I think it's discussed a bit here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKu7QSbgwNc"]Rivelino part 1 - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnUa1tArSM4&feature=related"]Rivelino part 2 - YouTube[/ame] No offence to Pipiolo - I just felt I should post (another ) Michael Laudrup video to show he did indeed use the move a lot. Like I said he maybe didn't invent it as such (I've actually seen Pele do a similar move from a static position on the touchline too - I'll see if I can find it then you can decide if it's the same move). And we can all be wrong or just not aware of all the plays by great players (eg James was indeed right about Rivelino, but maybe wasn't aware Laudrup was one of the ones who'd done a 360-turn). I don't think I'd seen that excellent assist against Juventus (albeit Napoli lost 3-1) by Maradona on the video Vegan10 posted myself - the one where he flicked the ball over a defender then dribbled before crossing low into the middle for Careca to score right at the end of the video. I guess we can all learn more by participating in these threads.