Pele vs Maradona vs Zico vs Cruyff vs Ronaldo 9

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Daniel96, Oct 29, 2011.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    James, you overlooked my response. Why did Zico have a similar gol-ratio with Flamengo as with the other clubs ? It was not .50 as you claimed. When he had a .70 average you acknowledged that he was a forward, but now that I presented to you similar results with Flamengo, you hurdle around it giving me opinions of what others said about him. There is a double standard in argument.



    Perhaps because you are looking at other midfielders that had defensive duties (Bagni, Alemao, etc.) not AM’s, like Diego.
    Platini was a mixture of AM/CM, Diego mostly AM, but towards the end of his career more as CM. This is why I stress to not rely only on Youtube flicks. I was there, I saw it, not like some youngsters (not implying that you are) who rely just on that source of information.

    But Diego did end up runner-up in the scoring charts at a WC (in fact two if you count the Youth WC of '79). And he was mostly always amongst the top scorers in Argentinean and Italian football, so that top level argument is rejected.


    And James also stated that Diego was the best midfield player and that Zico had 0.50 gol-ratio at Flamengo, which I proved him wrong.

    I think you meant Flamengo.

    I know, that's why I never disputed his abilities as a volante, but he operated more as a forward when I compare him to Maradona/Platini, which is why it is no coincidence that his gol average was much higher than theirs.

    In Italy, not really in Spain. But this is where you have to understand if you followed his career, that Diego operated mostly as CF/LW/RW at Barcelona, but not at Napoli. So what happened? His scoring started to dip, despite the fact that he was mostly amongst the leading scorers in el Calcio. Add to that, age and nutrition started to kick in and his personal problems started to elevate, which led to his end in Italy. When he moved to Sevilla, he was mostly a combination of AM/CM.
    We are talking about Maradona, universally known as a playmaker, not Bergkamp or Kluivert. And none of those guys that you mentioned created scoring opportunities in the variety of ways that Diego did (eg. corner kicks, freekicks, crosses from tight angles, long-range passes from the centre of the field, etc.)
    Not all playmakers have defensive duties, but Diego in WC86 performed on both ends of the pitch, which Bilardo instructed him to do.

    So did Diego at Boca in 1981, and at Napoli, Sevilla and Boca from 95-97.
    A volante can be divided into many roles: volante of creation (enganche), volante con llegada or media punta (insider), volante central (has offensive and defensive duties) like Pirlo, etc.

    Zico would fit more in the role of volante con llegada (insider), since it’s more of an AM/SS role which leads to greater chances to score, while Maradona would fit in the role of enganche, right behind the SS and CF. An example of this, was WC94, where Balbo and Batistuta were upfront, Caniggia more to the wing (LW), and Maradona behind as enganche (AM), Redondo and Simeone were the Pirlo’s.
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I don't quite get your point!?

    Let me try with Brazil NT (1982 ? to 86) There are two main reasons he was used as forward (instead of playmaker/AM)
    - Brazil NT lacked of quality striker in those years (Carreca was still young injured , Dinamite was called up as sub but he was also a half FW/AM, Coutinho was unfit, Dirceau was old, also a half AM half forward as sub, and Serginho... was just good enough but not up to the scale of main striker for Brazil NT) Zico in the other hand was as dangerous inside the box as he was outside ... a perfect fit to put him in front for goals - as the results he had a great stats 4goals+4ass/5games

    - another reasons to use him as forward: Brazil NT loaded with great midfielders in Socrates, Falcao, Eder and plus Junior which were more than enough to cover the field, and provide flair (Zico's specialty)

    =================================================

    The same thing with Rivaldo from 99-2002: he was used as forward in the absence of Ronaldo and when Romario and Bebeto were older, plus other strikers could not perform up to the need i.e. Elber, Sonny Anderson, Leandro, Jardel ...
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    But how would you define the differences between an AM and SS? That main question is evaded by you here.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Well, have you seen all games? In those pre-satellite era?

    Here in the Netherlands nobody could have seen all games of Maradona at Napoli. Because not every game was broadcasted live. Most had to rely on highlights (which were shown in 1 til 1.5 hour length in the evening).
     
  5. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011

    An AM is what we call volante de creation (enganche) usually wears the number 10 jersey. He operates right behind the SS and is the rudder of the attack. The function of an AM is to connect the offense with the rest of the team and orchestrate attacks, by feeding the forwards. Obviously he can score as well, and he is given very few priorities to defensive duties – especially the traditional South American enganche. This type of player must be exceptional in technique, in retention of the ball and very cerebral. He must have a clock in his brain.

    The volante con llegada (insider) operates normally right between the edge of the 18-yard box and in front of the AM position. His responsibly is to score more often than the AM and provide passes to the CF. However, the main difference between an AM and SS, is that the SS has to drop down and help in recuperating balls – while the AM is mostly free of these obligations (at least he is in South America).


    Italian league games were broadcasted in NY by the Italian network RAI, since there was always a large Italian community in Manhattan and other places. I moved to NY during the late 70s from Buenos Aires, but I still frequently visited Argentina.

    Of course I did not see every game at Napoli (I never said I did) and many times, the Italian network would broadcast only one half (the most interesting) but then later on the program called 90 minuto would air to show the highlights of every game. And I own at least 80-90 Napoli matches of that era in my video archive.

    But why focus solely on Napoli, when Diego played more for other teams ?
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ah, thus the SS has to have stamina as well, when your regard the area these players have to cover?

    That is interesting.

    To talk about the cerebral part, that is just what I found his weak point. Maradona seems somehow not the most intelligent person on earth, if you know what I mean. He's a bad-ass who you somehow 'love'.

    If you hear Pelé talking then you hear a intelligent person although it is a LP record with cliché evergreens on repeat.
    Also Beckenbauer and Cruyff, despite lacking elementary education (I exaggerate now a bit) are intelligent persons and so is Zico. Who is, as said earlier, not a boy from the favelas. Platini is a intelligent person too and perhaps also socially more intelligent than those other two Europeans.

    I think you could also see that on the pitch. I don't say that Maradona was stupid but his outstanding qualities that made the difference laid somewhere else. Perhaps that is why Maradona failed as a coach (although Zico isn't successful either, very strange for such a well-educated person and smart footballer too).

    That is good question and maybe not fair if you see a footballer as an artist. Like remembering two paintings, or just one album. Fair point, but unfortunately I've only seen material of his Napoli days.
     
  7. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, perhaps one could argue that this type of player is more versatile and complete, in which case Zico was more than Maradona in this regard.

    What a shame...
     
  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I’m not too fond of the person, but as a player it was pure magic. In any event, I think he had more vivacity than the others (e.g. Hand ball vs England and the USSR; (he did like to use that arm and in Napoli I saw it many times) knew when to take a dive to deceive the refs) and stuff like that made me think that he was ahead of the rest.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In Holland we have a nice English word for that: streetwise.

    Very interesting... It seems like the South-American second-striker has in some areas more responsibilities than its European contemporary and in others less.

    A shame, but it were his peak days and the Italian league is closer followed than the Argentinian in Europe, for obvious reasons.

    Can I ask how you were able to collect over 80 games of him? That is a hefty amount, really.
     
  10. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Sorry for interfering in the discussion but in terms of footballing inteligence Maradona was VERY high on the ladder. An intelligent man won't automatically make an inteligent footballer. There are exceptions of course(Cruyff,Zidane,Platini,Baggio etc.).
     
  11. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    I recorded some live and obtained others through contacts. When I was a kid and teenager, I loved to collect everything that had to do with football (magazines, newspapers, books, cards, and record games or highlights) and I still have most of it today. But nowadays I don’t do it anymore.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Last question: was Maradona according to you in 1986 a second striker or also an AM?

    I think we were talking past each other.
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Individually yes. He was very smart in using his body and also 'streetwise'. He was also strong in sensing when to make a run. In this sense he was smart.
     
  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    First I said Zico was a "forward" for Brazil NT (82-87) and at Unidese, but NOT exactly a "center forward" type (Romario, Basten Ronaldo Eto'o ...) like you mentioned.

    1- At Unidese 1983-84:

    he was a SupportStriker/playmaker (like Totti and Baggio 90 and 00 era of SerieA)

    Here are the Unidese rosters (Note : Zico was still named as a MIDFIELDER)

    Udinese Calcio .:. Kader 1983/1984

    Defender
    Edinho Brazil 05/06/1955
    Franco Pancheri Italy 25/01/1958
    ...
    Midfielder
    Luigi de Agostini Italy 07/04/1961
    Loris Dominissini Italy 19/11/1961
    Manuel Gerolin Italy 09/02/1961
    Zico ................ Brazil 03/03/1953

    Forward
    Franco Causio Italy 01/02/1949
    Massimo Mauro Italy 24/05/1962
    Ivo Šurjak Croatia 23/03/1953
    Pietro Virdis Italy 26/06/1957


    However, due to the poor form of strikers Virdis, and veteran Causio, Zico played high up just behind Virdis and took over the responsibility of both playmaker and scorer.

    Notoriously, Like Ronaldo at Barca 97, and Inter98-99 (before injuries) with only 1 season (or slightly more) Zico established himself as club (UNidese) LEGEND and also a "legend in Serie A" of the 80's

    ================================================

    2- Now at Brazil NT, let's take Brazil 1982 formation to see:
    In theory Brazil 82 played a 4 2 2 2 formation with Eder and Serginho as center forward and striker, Zico and Socrates were both just behind them.

    In reality games they were positioned as shown :)

    .........................1- Waldir..........................

    ............. 3-Luizinhio........ 4- Oscar...............
    2 Leandro .......................................6-Junior
    ...............5-Cerezo....................................
    .................................7- Falcao .................
    .........8- Socrates......................................
    ............................ 10- Zico.......................
    .............................................11 Eder........
    ......... 9- Serginho...................................

    Literally, Zico was a "forward" in attack, and an AM in defense ... (still NOT a "pure forward = striker" like most common knowledge ...

    Even positioning as a SS, Zico was a playmaker there (in charge of freekicks, PK and cornerkick and free role in movement up and down )

    ======================================================

    Well most EPL teams do NOT employ a so called "playmaker" system. However, under Wenger 4 2 3 1 formation, Berkgkamp was a "virtual playmaker" there and also for Netherland 98
     
  15. Alessandro10

    Alessandro10 Member

    Dec 6, 2010
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    He also had a very good sense of when to make a pass. His vision is an asset that gets underestimated a lot.
     
  16. Daniel96

    Daniel96 Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Australia, NSW
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Zico played similar posistion to Ronaldinho in Barcelona, They were attacking mids.
    They were Not Pure strikers like Ronaldo and Romario
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    It was a mixture of both ... I'd say ...

    Maradona's position was varied from games to games .. 4 4 1 1 in group and 3 5 2 in later stage.

    So "litterally" Maradona was playing as SS/FW with a freedom of roaming up/down, in a modified 3 5 2 formation (same as Rivaldo for Brazil 2002) - notably the games vs England and Belgium - other games he played much withdrawn deeper.

    His stats was back to awesome like the days of Argentina JR and Boca (5goals+5ass/7games)
     
  18. laudrup_10

    laudrup_10 Member

    Jun 6, 2011
    Btw James, you have mentioned that Zico had a lot of "direct assist's"... Do you have any relaible source's for these stat's when he was at Flamengo?
     
  19. laudrup_10

    laudrup_10 Member

    Jun 6, 2011
    Don't think anyone is saying Zico was a pure striker, though I'm sure he had to step in that role a few time's in a career.
     
  20. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    You won’t find them, because they were never documented. That’s why I go to my archive of videos to address these types of questions. Unfortunately for me, apart from around 30-40 Flamengo matches that I own from the Zico era, the rest I’m missing. That would mean that I’m at least 690 matches short. Damn! That’s why I don’t know how James could come to that conclusion.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Was it a compromise between both or a combination of both (so he fullfilled essentially two roles)? In the way you described both roles I'd say that he did both, because he was still involved in feeding the forwards with balls.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Like I had mentioned in my earlier post, NO CLEAR evidence of "assist stats" of Zico (and/or any other greats), unfortunately.

    Most people in Europe (apart from English) and the rest of the world (besides American) are not STATS fans! ESPN and some other links started their assist count for football in mid 2000's ... YET those stats of assist are not 100% reliable perse!

    I remember having an article (la Placar magazine?) back in early 90s talking about Zico's greatness in the twilight of Brazil NT at WC90! The article claimed that Zico had made no less than 150+ assists in his 1st Flamengo edition (72-83) of ~500games. This stats coincided with (Vegan's source: 20+ ass over 80+games) his NT team stats for Brazil ~0.25APG.

    So in overall career, out of ~700+ games, it's not an exaggeration to imagine Zico could have collected at least 200+ assists career (that's what I said ... not conclude)

    Well in fact, Maradona had coped with many roles in his career since early Argentina league (as FW) to playmaker/AM at Barca, Napoli and Argentina NT.

    Like no surprise if any of us often seen his name next to Pele, above every other greats in many list of all times. It'd be so naive to think Maradona got that "praise" based (solely) on his WC86 performance! Like most other all time greats (pele, puskas, di stefano, Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Garrincha, Rivaldino, Zico, Platini ...) Maradona could play in many positions or different roles with no sweat.

    ====================================================

    Now just for the sake of "role" and "position", we need to differentiate them as Football games are not quite as simple as many thought but rather "complex" as ART ...

    * Position vs Role:
    1- While Cruijff, and Di Stefano were positioned as center forward (4 3 3) and "inside right or left" of 2 3 5 system. How come not many considered them as "pure FW"? For their ROLE were rather complex, Cruijff was a "false 9" and often withdrawn deep to midfield to coordinate, feeding balls and surging up to score goals. Same with Di Stefano, he was everywhere from his own half to opponent's box!

    2- Beckenbauer was playing many positions: CM, DM, DF ... but his "invented libero" role was the most notorious as he was so skillful to fulfill different roles (from 1 position)

    3- Pele was starting as a FW/striker but his skills allowed him to move freely drifting left or right, withdrawing deep to link up, control midfield, defense ... if necessary. In his later years, he played mainly as a playmaker/AM. This is similar to Maradona, but Maradona started playing as AM earlier than Pele.

    4- Zico, Platini, were in contrast, starting out as AM, then developped into "playmaker" and played some occasions as forward/striker.

    5- Garrincha and G.Best shared somewhat similarity: they both strated out as a WINGER (midfielder) , but their skillset allowed them to play as wing FW (on either sides) or even center forward in some occasions - they both could dribble to tear up defense, providing cross, pass, and score many goals at will.

    6- Rivelino (and Rivaldo/Ronaldinho) were in the other package, starting out as CAM (or playmaker) but they ended up playing more on the wing and some occasions as FW. However, between them Rivelino was the closest "playmaker" that football should play, while Rivaldo was more of a FW, Ronaldinho as half playmaker & half FW.
     
  23. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    This can be addressed by simply watching the full games on Youtube, since they now are available.

    I’ll just add that James’ explanation of Argentina using a 3-5-2 system was correct, since Bilardo claimed that he had introduced this new method to football, which was pretty much the opposite to the old formula of 2-3-5 from 1930-1950.
    It’s plausible, but unfortunately, it can’t be verified. However, thanks to the video footage that I own from his Udinese days and the NT, I was able to confirm 3 assists at Udinese and at least 20 for the NT. The rest is a mystery.

    But once I’m able to find a way to get these images posted onto this forum, we will be able to confirm this for good.
     
  24. laudrup_10

    laudrup_10 Member

    Jun 6, 2011
    I have to agree with you in that the number's game/statistic's seem's to be of more relevance in North America than compared to other part's of the world. It's almost a pass time in itself.

    I think it would be next to impossible to really have a detailed assist figure for any player of that era. As you mentioned information of this sort was never documented, and even if one would have to sift through ton's of footage I'm sure not all games would be available for various reason's.
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yeah, I’ve stated this in another post of mine, outside USA, people were not obsessed over numbers, and they just enjoyed the game.

    It is difficult, especially in regards to those types of games such as domestic cups, but thankfully Serie A games were broadcasted and the program 90 minuto showed every goal of every game on Sunday’s.

    And speaking of Laudrup, while I was sifting through the footage of Serie A during the mid-80s, I came across many plays of Laudrup that were exceptional at Lazio and Juventus, often overlooked because of his more famous work in Spain. If I can upload these images, I will as well, since there’s always something different that I find. In any event, I noticed that Laudrup has amassed many assists in Serie A, and was generally in the top positions in this regard. He was one of those types of players that made others around him better.
     

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