Peace Queen Cup roster

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by tauri, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know my real life is a bit crazy and has kept me from obsessively checking soccer news but how did I miss that Rampone had gall bladder surgery? What was that about? (yes, I know, it was about a gall bladder problem--but was there a rupture or did she just get sick one day?)
     
  2. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm

    I don't know anything special about her case but its a problem some folks experience after pregnancy...
     
  3. coltrockslil13

    coltrockslil13 New Member

    Mar 30, 2005
    Minnesooota
    I'm surprised to see Wagner make it this far. I've always been underwelmed by her. True, she's had a few flashes of offensive brilliance, but hardly anything consistent. Meanwhile, she's slow, she's a lazy defender, and she's often injured. If Pia's thinking is that Wagner could serve as an offensive spark in the 75th minute, I guess I could agree with that. However, I can't see how hardly playing over the last 2 years could improve her ability to connect offensively with her teammates.

    Talk of Wagner starting in Beijing is nuts. Knock on wood (*hits own head*) no one else gets injured. Our starting midfield is Tarp, Lloyd, Boxx and Hao, and I'm thrilled with that group.

    Feels like I've been gone forever. Worked 64, 65, and 54 hours the last 3 weeks. Hope everyone is doing well.
     
  4. joanofdark

    joanofdark Member

    Oct 23, 2004
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    I disagree with the idea that Wagner could be a sub. At her best, she is someone who sets the pace of the game, not one who sparks an attack off the bench. She needs to be started or not played at all. When was the last time she even played a full 90?
     
  5. coltrockslil13

    coltrockslil13 New Member

    Mar 30, 2005
    Minnesooota
    The last time Wagner went the full 90 was November 22nd, 2006 in a 2-0 victory over Mexico.

    Her stats for 2007:

    8 games played
    4 games started
    0 complete games
    288 minutes played
    36 minutes average per game
    0 goals
    2 assists

    Her 2 assists came in slop time in a 6-2 victory over Canada and a 5-1 drumming of Mexico. Not exactly game-changing plays in critical games.

    Hopefully I'm wrong. Hopefully, by some miracle, hernia surgery has made Wagner into the player everyone was hoping she would develop into out of Santa Clara. Some how I don't see that happening.
     
  6. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    She wasn't at full speed in 2007, she was coming back from surgery.
    Her 2007 statistics are not a fair example of Wagner's ability.
    In 2006 she was third in the team in assists and had 2 goal. She has a total of 21 goals in her career, which is more than Heather O'Reily currently has and before this year Tarpley as well. Tarpley currently has 23 goals. (according to the US soccer home page)
    This means, Aly will be third in career goals for the team when she takes the field in the Peace Cup, behind Abby and now Tarpley.
    Aly has 117 caps.
     
  7. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    clearly my fault.

    i thought we were discussing wagner and obviously didn't read your post properly.

    my apologies.
     
  8. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The bench for the Olys is even shorter than for the WWC. To me, that means that every player must be game fit (yes, 90 min) even if they are mostly like to "only" be a sub. Let's all collectively flash back to 2003 and 2007, shall we. How well did partially fit players help our team win the Cup? Oh, right, they didn't. I hope Pia avoids a mistake both of her immediate predecessors made and doesn't take anyone who isn't 100% healthy and fit.

    If Wagner or Mitts (or anyone else) is NOT 100% ready to play 90min, then they do not belong on an 18 player roster.


    ps among my cold medicine induced wacky dreams last night, I dreamed that Danielle Slaton was playing W-league ball and had a meltdown on tv during some sort of Olys of the Stars competition.
     
  9. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    qft.


    best left back ever! when she was healthy, of course.

    btw, how did your brain come up with that videotape?
     
  10. casocrfan

    casocrfan Member

    Nov 25, 2004
    San Francisco
    Truly a shame what happened to Slaton. I don't think I have ever watched a better outside defender than her in the women's game. Her overlapping runs and wicked crosses into the box were incredible.

    As for your dreams kool-aid.... how do I get some of that medicine!
     
  11. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Apparently you aren't aware that Wagner's assist to games played ratio is one of the two or three best in USWNT history. I'd call that consistent. She probably sees the field better than anyone else on the current team. With respect to the knock that she's a lazy defender, several Italian National Team coaches said the same thing about Roberto Baggio, but they were always a better team with him on the field. Healthy and in her prime she starts ahead of Lloyd. The question is whether she's in good enough playing shape right now, to make the team, let alone replace Lloyd in the starting lineup. Only Pia can answer that question.
     
  12. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    it was truly sensational stuff.

    i'm not sure pia wants anyone who does not play good defense in her system. lloyd may get by because she has really improved her defense, but pia doesn't seem to want any water carriers for an amid. now, if wagner is good enough, and i doubt she is, boxx may have to go into overdrive to cover for her. and at boxx's age and with two reconstructed knees, i think that's just asking for trouble.

    i do have a more healthy respect for wagner's game than some others, but i've got to disagree with that. not in this system, and not the way lloyd has improved. in just the past year and a half, not only has the women's game improved exponentially, but so has lloyd's. wagner is returning to a game that is faster and more technical.

    the technical she can deal with. i have no doubt. the faster, i'm not sure. she was already too slow when she got injured.

    still, if she can beat out any of the current starting midfielders, i will be over the moon, because it will mean that she is better than they are. maybe pia had her on one of those whitehill fitness programs.
     
  13. coltrockslil13

    coltrockslil13 New Member

    Mar 30, 2005
    Minnesooota
    Her assist to game ratio is warped by slop time assists against weak opponents. Name one, big, game-changing assist by Wagner in a major competion? I'll answer my own question. She had an assist in the 2005 Algarve final to lead the USA to a 1-0 victory. That's it for the last 7 years.

    In 2002 (six years ago) she had 11 assists against weak opponents in nothing competions.

    In 2003, she had 8 assists coming against powerhouses Costa Rica and Mexico, etc. How did she do when the competion got tough in the World Cup? Zero goals, zero assists.

    In 2004, she had 6 assists against weak to average teams (Trinidad & Tobago, Japan, Iceland, New Zealand, Mexico, Denmark). How did she do in the Olympics? Zero goals, zero assists.

    In 2005, Wagner had her most consistent year. 5 assists in 8 games. 3 assists in the Algarve. She also had an assist in a 7-0 blowout of Ukraine and a 3-0 beating of Mexico.

    In 2006, she had 6 assists in 21 games. She had an assist in a 4-1 blowout of Norway. The other 5 were against bad teams (Ireland, Mexico, Chinese-Taipei, Iceland, and Canada).

    In 2007, she had 2 assists. One in a 6-2 drumming of Canada, and one in a 5-1 victory over Mexico. How did she do in the World Cup? Zero goals, zero assists.

    So is she consistent? Yes, she has recorded an assist against Mexico for 6 years straight!! Unfortunately, Mexico will not be playing in the Olympics. Wagner has gotten the chance to prove herself in numerous world championships and has always come up short. The time for new blood is now. Get Heath some minutes, so she can kick ass in 2011.
     
  14. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Lets play fair in our comparisons. Because she was battling injuries last year, Wagner played 59 minutes in the world cup, all in the third place game. Lloyd who played substantially more also had 0 goals and 0 assists in the world cup. In prior World Cups and Olympic competitions Wagner also had limited minutes because she was essentially playing behind Foudy.

    In addition, Lloyd has also played against the same kind of schedule that Wagner played against and Wagner's assist record is better. We can't compare this year under Pia (Lloyd has 3 assists in 7 games) because Wagner hasn't played yet. However we can compare the last three years under Ryan. From 2005 to 2007 Lloyd had 5 assists in 44 games (26 starts) in the same period Wagner had 13 assists in 37 games (28 starts). Not to bad for a player battling physical problems in 2007 and playing for a coach that encouraged his defense to bypass the midfield. Since Lloyd's assist record improved under Pia, you could make the case that a healthy and in form Wagner would thrive under Pia. But as I said in the prior post, only Pia can answer whether Wagner is now healthy and in form.

    With respect to giving Heath a chance. I've seen no evidence that she's a center midfielder, maybe she played there at North Carolina, but Pia has been playing her on the wing. If you're looking for young center midfielders your looking at Dimartino or Woznuk, neither of whom will be on the Olympic team. With respect to the other attacking center midfielders on the roster, Tarpley is 25 this year, Lloyd is 26, and Wagner 28.
     
  15. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Well said.

    Would it also be reasonable to keep in mind that the injury she had surgery for tends to be chronic and progressive; and its effects are likely to be greater on, or at least more easily observed in ones defensive performance than offensive?

    We may literally not have seen a truly healthy Wagner in six or eight years, and she may be a very different player than we think she is. I don't expect her to win a starting slot back, but it wouldn't surprise me greatly if she did.

    Its one of the things that makes the watching fun, that stuff like that sometimes happens. One doesn't want to get so ego-involved in being so sure it can't as to deny oneself that fun.

    I think Briana is not only toast, but burned toast-- but if she came back and played brilliantly and won the gold, I assure you those words would among the most dessertlike I ever ate...
     
  16. casocrfan

    casocrfan Member

    Nov 25, 2004
    San Francisco
    Agreed. It is unfair to use any attacking midfielder's stats under Ryan's system as an analysis of her talents. Ryan's style of play limited a creative CMs role significantly. I don't care is Sissi was playing, she wouldn't have the stats to back her talent.

    I'm also willing to give Pia the benefit of a doubt regarding Wagner's injury. Why bring her to the Peace Cup at all if she hasn't been showing something in training? Pia could easily have cut Wagner and nobody would have even cared... they just would have assumed the injuries were the reason. But to bring her into this tournament, which suggest she has a shot at the Oly roster, tells me that Wagner impressed in training.

    If her injury is healed, and she is in shape, Wagner is a weapon. If she is playing in an attacking mf role, her lack of speed is not an issue. What concerns me is her defense, but I'm betting Pia has already told her that. I hope she plays and plays well because we need this type of attacking player to succeed.
     
  17. jackiesdad

    jackiesdad Member

    Apr 13, 2008
    Agree 100%. Under Ryan, Lloyd just looked lost out there, like she didn't know her role. And with Ryan's style consisting of our backs booming it up to Abby and hoping for the best, our middies didn't have the opportunity to create scoring chances.

    Having said that, I'm really looking forward to seeing Wagner back in the midfield creating things for our new, multipronged attack.
     
  18. coltrockslil13

    coltrockslil13 New Member

    Mar 30, 2005
    Minnesooota
    Maybe it is unfair to judge Wagner's performances under Ryan.

    I learned a lesson: don't blog angry. I came home last night exhausted from a 47 hour work week only to receive a call telling me I needed to work on Saturday (today). I probably was too harsh just cause I was exhausted and pissed off at the world last night.

    Having said that, I reiterate that I have always been underwelmed by Wagner and that she has yet to make a significant contribution in a game that really mattered.

    If she is healthy....if her defense has improved....if her speed has improved...., I'll eat my words. I just don't see that happening after being (apparently) being injured for a year and a half. By the way, if she was injured for all of 2007, why was she on the world cup roster?

    I never compared Lloyd to Wagner. They are very different players. Lloyd drove me nuts quite a bit last year, but she has seemed to calm down and improve greatly under Pia. Is Lloyd a natural playmaker? I don't think so. However, in 14 games this year she has 6 goals and 5 assists. Not bad. Although, I must be fair and admit that they haven't played too many tough teams this year. The Peace Cup and the Friendlies against Brazil will be a good test of her skills. Interestingly, I believe Lloyd is one of 5 players (Wambach, HAO, Tarp, Rampone, Lloyd) to log minutes in every game the USA has played this year.

    Just remember: "You can prove anything with statistics. 83% of people know that."
     
  19. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    it's interesting how one bonehead decision by ryan has colored everything else he's done.

    now we're saying that lloyd just looked lost, like she didn't know her role. how come she was the third best scorer behind abby and lil in 2007, even tho she was one of the new players still being integrated into the team? hao and tarpley were all more experienced players than she was. she was even mvp of the 4 nations (i think).

    and if the backs were just booming it up to abby and hoping, how come the defenders had only 13 assists (whitehill, who took most set pieces beyond a certain distance and throws into the box had more than half of those) while the mids and forwards had 33 (again in 2007?)

    and how come they won all their tournaments and games for two years before the wc debacle?

    again, it was a different system guys. it was not pretty, (arsenal plays the prettiest soccer in the epl, but they've not won anything for 2 years) but it was effective. i'm just hoping that pia's system is as effective + 1.

    or is that + 2.
     
  20. casocrfan

    casocrfan Member

    Nov 25, 2004
    San Francisco
    Don't forget that during Ryan's tenure we scored a very high percentage of our goals off set plays rather than in the run of play.

    I look at the play of Brazil, Germany and Sweden as examples of playing attractive soccer and being successful (Sweden was decimated by injuries at the last WC otherwise I think they would have finished much better).

    My concerns of the past years, and going forward, have been the lack of developing attacking mids in our national team. Both April and Ryan are to blame for this. Going forward, Wagner might (I stress might) be a partial solution for these Olympics but after that, who?

    Two players come to mind.... I think if Amanda Poach was not recovering from injury Pia would have called her into camp. A former youth national team captain, she has the skills and the vision. Hopefully she recovers from the ACL tear. Another is Teresa Noyola. Her skills are amazing. If she develops in college (Stanford) she could be an answer. Any others?
     
  21. casoccerdad47

    casoccerdad47 Member+

    Mar 31, 2006
    Actually the forwards had most of the assists you attribute to the midfielders and forwards. Lilly had 8, Abby 5, Kai 3, O'Reilly had 1 and 3 of Tarpley's 5 assists came in games in which she was a forward. Only 13 of the 33 assists you attribute to the forwards and midfielders were recorded by midfielders. So the defense provided as many assists as the midfielders.

    The forwards became the play makers in Ryan's system because the ball was generally being played directly to them.
     
  22. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    we were playing a 4-3-3 a lot of the time with ryan. the forwards are supposed to be doing a lot more of the playmaking in that kind of system. plus, our most experienced and most creative player was a forward - lil. she had the most assists, and i generally enjoyed watching the team play, and watching lloyd develop as our best attacking midfielder. one bonehead decision should not revisionist history make.

    and because we played a 4-3-3 a lot of the time, in which....
     
  23. jackiesdad

    jackiesdad Member

    Apr 13, 2008
     
  24. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    One more time:

    While hockey has gone to a shootout to decide games, in soccer the shootout decides the tournament but is not part of the game. The game goes into the record books as a draw, and you can find it there any time.

    You may object to this convention, but it is the convention, and any revision is yours...

    And again-- the "beating up on inferior talent" line describes the conditions, not the choices. They played everybody there was to play, including Brazil, Germany, Norway, Sweden, in fact everybody who qualified for the cup except North Korea and a couple of the really weak teams. You can't play teams that don't exist, and you can't play Germany and Brazil and North Korea any more often than they are willing to play...
     
  25. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    qft.

    redcard, i'm not sure if this kind of debate, (which i swear has happened a million times), is one of the things you said you'd delete. i could simply let these statements pass. if i don't see them, i don't care. but if i happen to come online and i see them, because i think they tend to use one mistake to color everthing else, i will point that out.
     

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