PDL vs. NPSL attendance

Discussion in 'United Soccer Leagues' started by sprintjeløy1926, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. sprintjeløy1926

    sprintjeløy1926 New Member

    Sep 22, 2004
    Madwaukee
    Can anyone out there talk about what kind of attendance NPSL teams out west are getting? Here in Madison, WI they're getting between 300 and 700 per game(typically closer to 300). How does this compare to any of the PDL teams?

    Also, I've heard Chicago Sockers and possibly a Rockford team may be joining the midwestern division next season? Anyone, anyone?
     
  2. sprintjeløy1926

    sprintjeløy1926 New Member

    Sep 22, 2004
    Madwaukee
    Re: NPSL attendance

    Also, are there any teams already on the chopping block for next year?
     
  3. ButlerBob

    ButlerBob Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Evanston, IL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NPSL attendance

    That would be interesting if the Sockers would join the NPSL. A few years ago they were in the PDL. When they were in the PDL they even won the title.
     
  4. sprintjeløy1926

    sprintjeløy1926 New Member

    Sep 22, 2004
    Madwaukee
    Re: NPSL attendance

    Where do sockers play there home games? What kind of crowds do they get?

    They came up to play the NPSL team in Madison a couple weeks ago for an exhibition. The game drew a decent crowd. 1-0 Sockers. Getting a couple Illinois teams would really help Madison and Bavarians.
     
  5. ButlerBob

    ButlerBob Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Evanston, IL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NPSL attendance

    When they had a team in the PDL they playd at a location in Arlington Heights. I believe that was at least 4 years ago. The people that run the Sockers also used to run the professional Chicago Stingers that playd in the old D3 in the USL. I would imagine that they would play there again. I haven't heard about them hosting any games this summer. I guess I should go check out their web site.

    If the Sockers enter a team in the NPSL, I would imagine that it wouldn't be too long until the Magic do also.
     
  6. cristoforo7

    cristoforo7 New Member

    May 14, 2003
    Re: NPSL attendance

    At Sonoma County Sol's home games, we have been getting from 400 to 800, as a rough estimate. And the potential for more marketing is definitely huge.

    All kids 12 and under get in free, so I think that helps bring in the families with young kids.

    There will be at least 10 non-exhibition home games. 9 regular season plus 1 US Open Cup. Possibly 2 more home games on top of that (NPSL West Playoffs).

    Re PDL, I was looking at Orange County Blue Star's game summaries for the first four home games or so and I saw reported attendance figures of less than 100. Perhaps that has changed in their more recent games. (We are in NoCal, Orange County is in SoCal, so not necessarily the best comparison. The closest PDL club to us is around 140+ miles away in Modesto -- California Gold-- and I have not looked at any of their game summaries.)
     
  7. cristoforo7

    cristoforo7 New Member

    May 14, 2003
    Re: NPSL attendance

    Just looked at the California Gold's game reports for 7 home games, and their attendance started off in the 120 to 250 range, but they've had a couple of more recent games with reported attendances of 325 and 450.
     
  8. sprintjeløy1926

    sprintjeløy1926 New Member

    Sep 22, 2004
    Madwaukee
    Re: NPSL attendance

    My impression, let me restate that, my impression, based on what I've seen of the NPSL team here in Madison is that they are focused on getting a good fan base to financially support the team, not just developing players. At least with the now defunct Wisconsin Rebels, that wasn't the case. Ok, well I guess neither was the case for the Rebels. What I'm trying to get at: is NPSL trying harder than PDL to market itself as more than just a practice squad and actually get some fans?
     
  9. Paul Schmidt

    Paul Schmidt Member

    Feb 3, 2001
    Portland, Oregon!
    Re: NPSL attendance

    I had the opposite impression from sprint... at least for a while. Some of those NPSL teams were truly feckless.

    However, what I've come to understand is that it almost completely depends on management. I hear that some PDL teams collect a fee from PLAYERS for the right to play, meaning that the organization probably uses that as their income stream. Such organizations aren't even going to bother trying to recruit a fan base. To some degree, that appears to be the fate of the "MLS development" teams in the PDL as well.

    Some NPSL teams are simply in towns too big to support a marketing campaign, and those attendances suffer as a result. On that oh so important other hand, there's Chico and their habit of drawing high hundreds and low thousands (well, maybe thousands back in the day).

    Back to PDL, there was a good 500 in Salem Friday for Cascade Surge. They seemed to not try for a while as crowds whittled from 4 digits to a couple hundred hearty souls (so I hear), but there seems to be a little more activity with them now. After they retrenched from the pro league, they would recruit players primarily from local colleges, and usually the small colleges at that. Now, they've expanded their recruiting territory, but focus more on private Christian schools, and seem to promote themselves a little bit that way (without going to the pre-game prayer you'd hear in Charlotte or Provo). They retrenched not long after a single A baseball team came to town and immediately proved to be a bit too much competition. A handful of years ago, they even left Willamette University's gridball stadium for a private high school stadium (plus some games about 20 miles north of town). I can't tell you what has provided the impetus for a turnaround and a return to Willamette, but it seems to have happened with a bit of gusto.

    I know that Spokane usually pushes over 1,000 in a stadium that really should be airlifted to a city ready to host MLS (if you put in real grass, anyway). Of course, there's Des Moines and their several thousand a game. Those are somewhat exceptions even to the general PDL rule, but they're more likely to happen in the PDL IMO.
     
  10. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NPSL attendance

    The entire 64-club USL PDL lists its 2011 match average as 546 fans, an increase of nearly 7% over last year’s 512. This is the highest average since such stats have been kept, dating back to the year 2000.
     
  11. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: NPSL attendance

    It sure would be nice to see the actual inside numbers. I've seen enough of the PDL over the years to feel pretty confident that that number is approximately half invented. I mean, if we still have USLPRO teams failing to get their attendances in their match reports, what's the odds of anything close to accurate information from the PDL?

    That aside, my sense is that the PDL, on average (and median), draws better than the NPSL. As much as I understand NPSL teams wanting to go their own way because they didn't like the high cost of being in the USL, there is usually a correlation between money and quality. It may be that the cost/benefit ratio isn't worthwhile, but the correlation is still there.
     
  12. SheffWedFan

    SheffWedFan Member

    Dec 23, 2005
    Thousand Oaks, CA
    Club:
    Sheffield Wednesday FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's very true.

    From my own completely anecdotal evidence: the Rattlers FC game I went to had about 75 people (although it was a 5pm kickoff and 100 degree heat). The San Diego Flash game I went to had maybe 300. The FC Hasental game I went to had around 200 people, and that was a hastily re-arranged game in a public park, so I would think their regular crowd would be a little higher.

    Hollywood United usually averaged around 150, maybe a little less.
     
  13. Macsen

    Macsen Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 5, 2007
    Orlando
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In Jacksonville, the PDL team drew twice as many as the NPSL team. FC Jax averaged a tick over 1,000, while United averaged about 500.

    Which is sad, considering Jacksonville United are the 2011 NPSL Champions.
     
  14. brentgoulet

    brentgoulet Member+

    Oct 12, 2005
    PuertoPlata, DomRep
    any numbers out yet from the 2012 season ?
     
  15. mbsc

    mbsc Member

    Aug 6, 2009
    Club:
    Wilmington H.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Myrtle Beach FC didn't release numbers, but I estimated around 150 persons per game as opposed to the closest PDL team Palmetto FC at 541 per game. The NPSL attendance champs would probably be Chattanooga FC (at 2325, I think...).
     
  16. Hax

    Hax BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 1, 2000
    There's a huge discrepancy between teams and their attendances at all level of American soccer, from MLS to NPSL. I don't think you can fully gauge the quality of a league or team based on numbers because there's such a gap between how teams are run, their drawing ability, resources, facilities, scheduling, etc. Two very successful teams in PA, Reading United and FC Sonic, regularly win championships and send their alumni to higher levels of soccer but draw poorly. I rate them as successful franchises even if their attendances don't hit 1K.
     
  17. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know how you can tell if NPSL and PDL teams are "successful?" If they're still around. The longest-running PDL teams appear to be Des Moines (who draws well), Michigan, Bradenton (who doesn't draw well at all, yet has ulterior motives), Kansas City, Brooklyn, Orlando's U23s, Vermont and Westchester (Nashville has been around a long time, too, at various levels and indoor/outdoor, and they can't draw flies).

    NPSL attendances are very hard to find and compile. The league does nothing. There are never any "numbers out" in any meaningful amount or context.
     
  18. JeffKuntz

    JeffKuntz Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    Ah, attendance.

    Generally .... if a team plays at a real venue, a variety of reports (both relating to people through the turn-styles and box office sales reports) are given to the team from the venue. Various reports are made before the game, during the game, after the game.. the team's top ticket rep either has direct access to the venue's ticketing system for his/her team's games, and/or hovers around the box office to monitor things and be there to make decisions about the various problems that come up on game day.. (making things as smooth as possible for fans)

    Truth is there's always people who paid for tickets who don't show up.. there's always comp tickets that are given who don't show up.. there's other factors like leases and how concession shares relate to attendance.. fees.. taxes.. etc..

    Attendance is a muddy mess with plenty of variables.. I personally wouldn't call out a team or venue.. there's so much going on that nobody really knows..

    And it's never as simple as counting the number of fans in certain sections and trying to extrapolate..
     
  19. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But you can watch an internet stream and totally tell within 3-4% if the number they announce is legit, right?















    :D
     
  20. JeffKuntz

    JeffKuntz Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    Oh absolutely.

    One time a team supporter who was watching the game on the internet complained that his count of the audience was actually one HIGHER than the announced total.

    But after 6 of us in the front office painstakingly reviewed the internet stream and counted fans, we discovered that the concerned supporter had inadvertently counted the mascot who was in the stands at the time as part of the paid crowd.
     
  21. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stream was in HD, of course, right?
     
  22. JeffKuntz

    JeffKuntz Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    In HD ...

    ... with play by play AND color commentary ..

    .. a full pre-game show ..

    .. sponsored (all cash deal) by Taco Bell ..

    .. with game highlights shown on all local network 11:00pm news' sports broadcasts ..

    Everything the team owner wanted.
     
  23. kenntomasch

    kenntomasch Member+

    Sep 2, 1999
    Out West
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Yeah, on a channel I didn't get. Thanks for NOTHING!"
     
  24. JeffKuntz

    JeffKuntz Member

    Oct 17, 2011
    The penny drops.

    THIS MANN IS A TEAM OWNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  25. CShine

    CShine Member

    Dec 13, 2009
    Huntsville, AL
    Club:
    Rocket City United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would've kept up witg Rocket City United's numbers but I didn't know anyone cared? ;)

    The lowest number was 327. I remember that specifically because it was the worst turnout in more than two years. Best showing was 500 and change, iirc. A caveat to add, the season ticket price jumped from $50 to $115. The extra cash added a home shirt to the package and nothing else so I imagine a few folks got spooked by the price hike. All 2011 games had been in the 600-900 range. I take it as evidence of how many true diehards there are here. Considering we're a moderately sized town in the South, I suppose it could've been worse.
     

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