PC refereeing and the WWC

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Lloyd Heilbrunn, Sep 29, 2003.

  1. MPJ334

    MPJ334 New Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Chelsea,New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    one year? i thought FIFA set a min of two @ your country's top level? where'd i mess up/get that?
     
  2. MPJ334

    MPJ334 New Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Chelsea,New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i concur. and bite my tongue to the response regarding the legality of it as that there is a politics forum. let's stick with the beautiful game over here
     
  3. law5guy

    law5guy Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    More political comments!

    ##### Editted by IASocFan #####
    ENOUGH! NO More comments on International Politics. This thread is about using Women refs for the WWC.

    I don't care for censorship, but it's time. I'm not taking sides, I'm just trying not to move this thread to the politics board.

    THANKS.
     
  4. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You didn't mention specific plays and I can't comment on this one because I didn't see it. I just said that there were other threads talking about "phantom calls" and questioning why PKs were retaken and in those cases, a replay was found later (in the case of the retaken PK, 2 days later) justifying the decision.

    They aren't refereeing for you (or me), they are refereeing for the players. And in reality, as long as the CENTER REFEREE understands the signals, it doesn't really matter that much if ANYONE else does.

    Having said that, what signals or mechanics in particular have bothered you? I know that one poster in another thread asked why one set of AR's (I believe from Asia) consistently put the flag straight up before signaling direction on a throwin. Which signals are being used in which situations? I'd be interested in discussing those.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you get the last word (well, the only two words really) and that should be the end of it?

    I'll only respond by saying that I don't appreciate an international civics lesson. I have no idea what your academic background or your profession is, but mine directly relates to the subject at hand. If you want to discuss Chapters VII and VIII of the UN Charter, the question of Security Council reform, or the law of armed conflict, there are plenty of other places to do so. I'm just more interested--as I'm sure everyone else who posts here is--in leaving non-soccer related politics completely out of any discussions we have here.

    Your comments didn't offend me. I just don't think they are the type of assertions that should be put forward without healthy debate from various sides. Since I believe that debate is completely out of place in this forum, I'd much prefer that you would have just refrained from making them, which it seems you easily could have done.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You didn't. I don't know if the requirement was relaxed officially or unofficially, but it was definitely relaxed for women ascending to the FIFA badge. That was my point.
     
  7. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    I have a question: How many here think Collina and the other tip-top refs should have refereed the U17 Men's World Cup?
     
  9. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not me.

    And I don't think they should be doing the WWC either.

    I am perfectly satisfied that women are refereeing the WWC. Do I think that the top women should be doing the games? Yes, I do -- just like I think that the top men should be doing the men's WC regardless of where they come from. If that means half the referees at the WWC are American so be it. If that means 2/3s of the referees at the men's WC are European, I can live with that too.

    But I realize that we live in a political world and there's ALWAYS going to be politics involved in making the assignments. I can live with it.

    And speaking of Youth, anyone know if we have any US referees going to the World Youth Championships (U20's) in UAB in Nov/Dec?
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I remember correctly, Stott was going before the tournament got postponed. Not sure if that has changed or not.
     
  11. Crowdie

    Crowdie New Member

    Jan 23, 2003
    Auckland, New Zealand
    If the next WC was to have say the best thirty referees and the best sixty assistant referees how would they be selected?

    Crowdie.
     
  12. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, my intent of starting the thread was not really to critique in such detail, because as a non ref I'm not completely qualified to do so, but to inquire of those with more knowledge if they agreed that the refereeing standard was below what it would be if only female refs were not mandated,and if this was justified.

    If you don't agree with that whole proposition,fine,that's why I posted the question, to see what others thought.

    A number of the refs here seem to agree,though,and some do not,and some others seem to agree that the competancy level IS lower, but that it is a reasonable tradeoff due to good motives behind the mandate.

    That said, I'll try to address your points.

    I vehemently disagree that the refs are there ONLY for the players in a soldout, world televised WWC game. Under these circumstances the more the ref can make it clear to those watching what she is calling and why,the better for the event, and, IMO, the better for her management of the players and the game.

    If the audience is educated, they are less likely to react harshly,which gives less psychological support for player dissent. Plus the WWC is a SPECTATOR sport, not a friendly at the local park! :)

    As to what in particular, just one example, last five minutes of US-NK, NK player gets taken down in US penalty area, appeals for PK. Player shown yellow card, I GUESS for diving, however the ref did not (at least as shown on camera) make a "diving signal" or motion.

    Now, I don't even know if the diving motion is even an official signal(educate me on this please) ,but it sure as Hell lets the viewers(and the clearly puzzled announcing team)know what the call was, is widely used, was very common in the Men's WC games I watched, AND most importantly, IMO, shows commitment in the ref to stand behind her call, unafraid that people will know what it actually was........YMMV!
     
  13. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And how many people think all those refs should only have been under seventeen years old?? :)
     
  14. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    Again, an inaccurate analogy. Age, in the case of the referee, is a good indicator of experience and emotional balance on the world level. A youth in a high pressure situation would not be justified. A woman in an equally high pressure situation would be more so, just as a man would.

    With your line of reasoning, there should only be one World Cup where all national teams compete regardless of gender. So long as gender is an issue with the playing level in the sport, so will it be with the refereeing of the sport.
     
  15. RushOnze

    RushOnze New Member

    May 16, 2001
    Colorado
    Stott and Strickland. Hasnt changed
     
  16. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The U17 and U20 World Championships should be vehicles to promote referee development. Bring the youngest and brightest referees to these tournaments as a means of offering valuable experience for future top flight assignments.
     
  17. kevbrunton

    kevbrunton New Member

    Feb 27, 2001
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are no signals in FIFA/USSF to convey a reason for a card. I watch a lot of European, MLS and International soccer and I rarely see any such signal. I would guess when we've seen it is when the referee and the player don't speak a common language, so a hand gesture is the only way for the referee to tell the player why he is being carded in such a situation. In most situations, it is clear -- the player just committed a hard foul or the player just yelled at the referee, so no communication is really necessary.

    How old are Stott and Strickland? How long have they been FIFA referees? In other words, are they our "youngest and brightest" that need to get experience on the world stage?

    Also, are they Centers or ARs?
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Stott is a CR, Strickland is an AR. They are both 36 years old. Stott is our youngest CR, there are two ARs slightly younger than Strickland.

    For whatever reason, unlike many other countries, we do not tend to have a lot of FIFA referees under the age of 30. If you look at UEFA, you'll notice that, for their youth tournaments, there tend to be quite a few FIFA referees in their late 20s, who are allowed to develop in both those tournaments and the early stages of the UEFA Cup. That is not the case in the US. In fact, I believe Stott is the last US referee to receive a FIFA badge before age 30 (interestingly, Stott is our youngest FIFA, yet our second most experienced).

    Anyway, although he is probably advanced in age compared to others that will be at the WYC, he is our youngest. And, in the eyes of CONCACAF and FIFA, probably our brightest. This is his second straight trip to the WYC and he performed well at the last one, getting the coveted Germany v. Brazil appointment. With the possibility of attending both the '06 and '10 World Cups if the current retirement age holds (and Hall doesn't go to '06), Stott will be around for awhile.
     
  19. RushOnze

    RushOnze New Member

    May 16, 2001
    Colorado
    FIFA wanted only refs under 38 years for U-20.
     
  20. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Re: Re: PC refereeing and the WWC

    Speaking of poor analogies, female athletes and female referees are in very different situations. After all, we've had female referees in the NBA and pro baseball, and there is no reason to think that women will not become World Cup soccer referees in our lifetime. In fact, it would be ludicrous to suggest that female referees can't compete with males.

    From my perspective, the best analogy is between referees and coaches. They don't outlaw male coaches at the WWC, and they shouldn't outlaw male referees.
     
  21. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    I don't disagree, beineke. My position is not that women will never reach that level, it is simply that they are not at that level right now. Neither are the female players.
     
  22. Gary V

    Gary V Member+

    Feb 4, 2003
    SE Mich.
    Unlike other sports, or US HS soccer games, there are no official FIFA signals to tell what has already happened. There are only signals to tell what will happen next. The signal is always for the restart.

    In some international games, where refs and players might not have a common language, the ref may pantomime to get his point across. But if the ref can simply talk to the players and get his point across that way, it will be much clearer than if he resorts to hand signals.
     
  23. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: PC refereeing and the WWC

    The one area where there is a difference is in physical abilities. The requirements for FIFA badge differ from similarly aged officials depending on whether they are men or women. Not to say you won't find a female referee capable of meeting the men's Cooper Physical Test requirements, but a majority could not pass at the level required for men. This does not mean they lack all of the other skills necessary to be a good referee. It cast doubts as to how close to play they can keep up in an extrremely dynamic match. Compared to basketball courts which are (94') 30 yards long, a soccer field is 110 to 120 yards long that's four times the length and five times the width. The differences in speed are much more noticeable. Also sports like basketball have many more officials you eally only have to run from baseline to half court.
     
  24. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    Re: Re: Re: Re: PC refereeing and the WWC

    I stand corrected. For a guy like me who's only ever done rec-level games, it's easy not to think about the level of athleticism that FIFA referees bring to the table.

    Incidentally, I looked up the differences, and they're pretty dramatic -- 20% slower across 50 meters.:
    http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...oc+cooper+fitness+fifa+referee&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
     
  25. MPJ334

    MPJ334 New Member

    Dec 19, 2001
    Chelsea,New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i'm about to die! oh my gosh. the kids around me in this boring accounting class (i finished the work yesterday) are staring. i need to stop gasping for air from laughing before the teacher says something
     

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