PBP/Post USWNT vs Mexico 6/5

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by kool-aide, Jun 5, 2011.

  1. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    haha, true. there are plenty of other holding mid's performing better than boxx over the last 1.5 years as well. I like cheney as a reserved forward with abby and morgan above her. hao, llloyd in the mid and boxx holding...
     
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Name two holding mids who have performed better.
     
  3. fire123

    fire123 Member+

    Jul 31, 2009
    How in the world did this Mexico team beat the US last time around?!
    They were slow, slow and slower. They didn't show much skills either.
    This game was a terrible way to prepare for the world cup. We need to schedule against faster, stronger, more skillful opponents.
     
  4. kittenbiscuits

    kittenbiscuits New Member

    May 8, 2010
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Leslie Osbourne and last year WPS-wise Allie Long.

    That's not to say that Boxx is not performing or doesn't still have what it takes to be on the Nats. When she comes to play, she's fantastic. But with her age and constant 90's that Pia is having her do, will take its toll on her and she won't perform as well.
    Especially since her replacement on the roster is Lindsey and in my opinion Lindsey has to warm up to be effective. So putting her in at 60' or whatever will not yield her best product. Thus making Pia less inclined to sub-out Boxx.
     
  5. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    the uswnt was much worse than it was yesterday mentally and physically. if you listened to foudy's comments, she was criticizing the fitness schedule that required the players to train right thru this game, making them mentally and physically tired.

    well, at the wcqs, the team was 10 times worse at the end of a wps season. at that game, it was the uswnt that was slow and slower. the mexican team passed the ball all around them, and beat them to tons of second balls. plus they played in mexico.

    of course, some people just don't buy the "tired" explanation. they say that the mexican team is just getting better than the u.s. team.
     
  6. kittenbiscuits

    kittenbiscuits New Member

    May 8, 2010
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    and after being scored on the GK looked lost and scared at wcqs. Really adds to the opposing team's confidence.
     
  7. philafan

    philafan Member

    Mar 20, 2010
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. luvdagame

    luvdagame Member+

    Jul 6, 2000
    leslie osbourne and allie long and lori lindsey (someone else said she's better) are not better than boxx.

    imo.

    a lot of the villification and name calling of pia on this board has to do with reasonable differences in opinions about players.

    it may be a novel idea. but the fact that a coach picks their players and sticks with them is par for the course. the fact that we would do differently does not make the coach a bad coach, or an idiot coach.

    and it certainly does not make us good coaches or genius coaches.

    and i say this fully believing that wilson and ellertson would make this uswnt better. and i can't see how pia cannot see that. to me it's as plain as day.
     
  9. kittenbiscuits

    kittenbiscuits New Member

    May 8, 2010
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Last year they were. Boxx didn't have an awesome year. Osbourne and Long did. Boxx seemed to drag most of the year. Whether she had a minor lingering injury, age, or just tired caused it, I don't know. However the second game against Japan was the first time she's been straight up fantastic in a while.
     
  10. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I completely disagree about Long. She's not up to international standard as a holding mid. She's become a solid pro but isn't up to this level, imo--her speed of thought doesn't match her technical ability & she's got a habit of tiring late in games (maybe a bit better this year). She and Huffman fall into the same category for me--good pros just a step (or half step) down from international standard and I think Huffman is better than Long, if not as technical. Averbuch is a better holding mid than Long. But I don't think Averbuch out performed Boxx last year and she gave up the first part of her WPS season to try & make the WWC team.

    I don't think Osborne performed much better last year than Boxx but I do think she's has had a better WPS career than Lloyd. Then again, Lloyd's WPS play has been pretty sub-par. I think Osborne & Lindsey are close -- Lindsey started the season on fire last year & had a strong 2009 but the 2nd half of 2010 fell short for me. I also have a big fear about the 30+ legs & the WWC.

    The central midfield player that outplayed Lloyd, Long, Averbuch, Lindsey, etc, head to head last season was Becky Edwards. She's out playing them this year in WPS, too. And I think you can make a very good case that Edwards outperformed her teammate Boxx last season & she's looked better than Boxx so far this year to me.

    I don't think I've vilified Pia in stating my disagreements w/ her but maybe I do. I've said before that what I think are our (you & me) differences stem from a basic trust you have in Pia making good choices which make the team better even if fans don't agree w/ specific player choices. I've lost that trust over the last 1 1/2 years. I've lost that trust because I see a team that plays worse than the sum of the parts -- a sum of parts that even critics of individual players (ie me & Lloyd) would think the team should manage to rise up to.

    Perhaps that lack of trust falls into "reasonable difference in opinions about players" for you. But for me, it is a bit different. I honestly believe that if Lloyd was playing exactly how she's played for the last 2 years but the sum of parts for the entire team (ie team defense & an offense that clicked) was at a high standard, I wouldn't be where I am in my opinion of Pia's ability. But the repeated square pegs - round hole moves combined with many poor outings have convinced me that, for whatever combination of reasons, Pia isn't making the team better in ways beyond simply picking different players than I would pick.
     
  11. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Neither played one lick at international level. Anybody else?
     
  12. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    The way my days go these days, I always watch it recorded.

    Yesterday was the inaugural match of our brand new soccer-only training facilitiy here in Taos-- The Rwandan men's under 17 team is here to train at altitude and play a couple of games in preparation for the u17 WC in Mexico, and they played an Albuquerque select U18 team, winning 3-0.

    That match overlapped with the USWNT, so once again I am late to the dance here.




    The sky is not falling.

    We played a team that beat us just a few months ago, and did so as more than a fluke. We beat them every which way including (finally) on the scoreboard this time.

    The finishing wasn't good, but it wasn't as bad as has been made out-- the one thing Mexico did exceptionally well yesterday was block shots, which will tend to make folks try to rush them, which will make for some crappy shots... and make people shoot when they would do better to take another touch first.

    I thought Mitts looked fine; she got semi-beat the one time, and had that resulted in a goal against the run of play it would have been pretty depressing, but it didn't. Overall I was happy enough. If she starts against anybody but Columbia my tune will go up an octave or two, but...

    I'm really very unexpectedly happy with the progress Amy is making toward being a legit left back. I still think it would make more sense to just give it to Cox, but no question Le Pielbet can get up into the offense more effectively. I'd be a lot more comfortable with it if N Korea was our third group game, not our first, but you can't always get what you want.

    We seem to get two criticims of the folks who try to play the outside backs in this offense, and they are contradictory:

    1. "So and so didn't/doesn't get up into the offense enough, is too tentative/slow." And

    2. "So and so got burned regularly by counters getting behind her, she's not paying attention to defense first."

    My understandning of what Pia's trying to do with this setup is that if the offense is flowing up one side, the back on that side should be moving up to join it-- and the back line kind of shifting over, with a mid staying in position to drop back to fill the empty space. Part of what has been going wrong has been that all too often when the offense does flow up one side, either Boxx or Lloyd or even both are hanging back to cover without the back ever committing up into the attack. This results in a shortage of numbers up in the attack and also people getting in each others way defending the counter,

    Amy was sure committing yesterday, and it helped a lot in setting the tone of the game as "This is not about who will win, its about by how much." She's not any greyhound getting back-- but it is not shameful for an outside back to be trailing the play in this system, as long as she's hustling.

    Will Cheyney ever hit a ball as hard as that again? That thing barely admitted the existence of gravity.

    Our corners are finally improving a little; but there's a long way to go. Mia and Mac spoiled, well, me at least...
     
  13. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Osborne has quite a bit of experience internationally (against adults & not including her Uxx days) -- WWC caps, even. I agree about Long -- even her Uxx days were not as a holding mid, a recent position shift for her.
     
  14. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Ok, let's talk this decade. Osborne hasn't had a cap at holding mid since before the Olympics. The last tie I remember her playing defense she headed a ball into her own net.

    There just isn't anybody in the pipeline who does what Boxx does, and the position is too unglamorous.
     
  15. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Regardless of when her last cap was, you said she hadn't played "one lick at the international level" and I was pointing out the factual inaccuracy of that statement. Whether her 2010 form merited her getting a look during 2010 is a separate discussion.

    I'm not one of those saying Boxx shouldn't be on the team. I just think her minutes in the group games need to be managed quite carefully (ie not play full 90s all 3 games).

    As for the pipeline: Becky Edwards.
     
  16. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    She hasn't played one lick of holding mid at the international level in several years ....period.

    Hardy syncs with the post I commented on that said:

    Becky Edwards -- maybe for the future. I'll wait untill she actually plays a game before I crown her better, though.

    If people want to claim there are "several" holding mids playing better at the international level, name one.

    You can't. That's actually what makes her situation so scary. If she goes down we have a huge hole because nobody is being groomed to take her spot. I'm all for managing her minutes. Doesn't there have to be another player, thought?
     
  17. FawcettFan14

    FawcettFan14 Member+

    Mar 19, 2004
    Colorado
    There are multiple legitimate contenders for defensive midfield waiting in the "pipeline": Becky Edwards, Keelin Winters, Yael Averbuch, Brittany Bock, Amber Brooks (who is still in college). It might not be a seamless transition, but the long-term options are there.
     
  18. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Im pretty sure the discussion was about now. More specifically, the last 1.5 years.

    With the WWC a couple weeks ahead ( I think the team has to be submitted to FIFA the 16th) it's pretty short development cycle for that player to arrive.

    Our holding mid is Boxx. Get used to the idea and move on. Talk about how someone else should be there now is just not realistic.
     
  19. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    actually. i disagree with this. you have to look at a players current/recent form, not who they were 3,4 years ago. And with age in mind it is the coaches job to develop the new talent incase of injury and for the over all benefit of the teams future. that's fairly 101.

    I think Boxx is capable, but as others have said, shes proven to get tired easily and fad very often (or not show up at all) over the last 2 years. This is a long grueling World Cup, where Youth has historically proven to shine.

    Other US players have played d-mid better than her in the WPS - which is the closest you get to International level -if not on par.

    Clive, you say get over it, because it's all we have = but that's THE EXACT problem. It's not all we have. It's all we have that Pia has managed to put together and develop.

    LUV, it's par for some coaches to stick with once proven older generation and very much not common for other coaches. Again, look at what happened with Italy and France in the last world cup. Two coaches who left players like Rossi off their team in favor of players who performed well 4 years previous. In contrast look at what the young Germany squad did who intentionally brought young much less experienced players to last years WC, they flurished.
     
  20. kittenbiscuits

    kittenbiscuits New Member

    May 8, 2010
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Both have before. But like Lloyd Pia prefers Boxx over all others. Sometimes rightly so, and other times she seems to have roster stasis.
     
  21. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    You aren't paying attention.

    The discussion was holding mids who played better than Boxx in the last 1.5 years at the international level for the WNT or should be playing instead of her. The comment was made that "several" have played better in the last 1.5 years and should be there instead of her.


    I agree if you replace "several" with "nobody".

    Put up or shut up on this one. Who has played better for the US team than Boxx and should be in her place?

    Osborne hasn't played the position at anything approaching an international level in more than 1.5 years. She hasnt demonstrated she is better in that time span.

    I ask again. Anybody else? who has made you say "Boy! we really need her instead of Boxxy?

    I'm getting tired of people making any statement they want with no support just to see if something sticks to the wall. If you have someone, name them. And provide some facts in support.

    Here's an example. I might say the US strikers can't hit the broad side of a barn and use yesterday's 4 shots on frame in 34 shots as an example. You might respond that no, an under 12% accuracy is just fine and its all those chances we gave Mexico that are the issue. Then we would have something to work with. I might then show video that the strikers had their eyes shut when they shot. Stuff like that.

    What do you have on Boxx in the last 1.5 years? She shouldn't have allowed all those Mexican goals? shots? possessions? Got video? anything? Give me a video link some stellar play from another holding mid.
     
  22. BrooklynSoccer

    BrooklynSoccer Member+

    Jan 22, 2008
    cough.. awh. I made the original statement and I think you're the one not paying attention. I wrote this:

    there are plenty of other holding mid's performing better than boxx over the last 1.5 years as well.

    I DID NOT make the argument that other holding mid's have performed better over the last 1.5 years in a US jersey because NO OTHER PLAYERS HAVE GOTTEN THE CHANCE TO PLAY THAT POSITION AT THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. However, they have all played together in a professional league and other players have proven to be wildly efficient holding Mids.

    You're missing the whole point of my statement and argument.

    And it's a red herring argument you're trying to make - christ, noobyd has played dmid at the nat level for like 4 years. - sans linsdey and it's not even her position - so how can you make an argument she's out performed every other person who competed for her position in nat. games.

    Echa Palante.
     
  23. Cville K C

    Cville K C Member

    Nov 3, 2008
    Collinsville, IL
    Club:
    Saint Louis Athletica
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Given that Boxx has started every single match for the US in the past two years, except one game against Canada at the Four Nations, there is no one to compare her to. She's played the full 90 minutes in half of them. That's because Pia has not really given anyone else a chance, except Lindsey for small portions of a few matches. By your criteria, no one else could possibly have played better, because there are no other possibilities to choose from.
     
  24. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    OK, now we have something. that's pretty much what i said a few posts ago when i said if she went down we have no-one. but you can't possibly say someone else has played better, because, by your statement, no one else has played.

    So NOBODY has played better.
    ( for the record, USA won that game 2-1 and Lindsey played that spot when Canada scored their goal)

    Can we move on to a subject based in reality now?
     
  25. kool-aide

    kool-aide Member+

    Feb 1, 2002
    a van by the river
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 2009 Boxx played 8 of the 8 USWNT games, starting 7, and played 85% of the minutes. In 2010, Boxx played & started all 18 games and played 86% of the minutes. per ussoccer site. Those are the two years when an adequate backup and/or successor should and could have been found.

    Again, my problem (unlike some other posters) is not that Boxx is a mainstay -- we agree here. I think her health & fitness are key to USWNT success. She's still top class when she's got her legs. But, like Akers in '99, her minutes need to be managed and a proper backup played a good bit of minutes in the group games. My personal issue isn't w/ Boxx being on the roster or being the "go to" holding mid for the serious games. You're right that she's the best. But the best can't play all the games in the WWC at 33.

    There seem to be several conversations going on here -- one is a "what's happened over the last 2 years w/ new players" and one is "the world cup is here and we need players we know can play" and then there are other side conversations. And many of us seem to be talking past each other. Threads here get all clogged w/ multiple topics & conversations that could/should have their own threads and we end up talking past each other.

    Cliveworshipper, I do think you're being a bit disingenuous w/ your no international experience hairsplitting. You first said no one had international experience but when I pointed out that simply wasn't true, you moved the goal posts. I've always respected your posting but here I think you're getting ott about this Boxx & no other holding mids have had international experience in the last 1.5 years. Outplaying another player in club play is where players are supposed to prove they're better and/or good enough to make nat'l teams. That has happened w/ at least one player (Edwards) and you seem to be ignoring it or discounting it.

    And central midfield & Boxx's game is more than just holding/dmid play. Boxx can push forward consistently & w/ success if she's got another box to box mid next to her. But that's yet another whole conversation which doesn't belong in this thread.
     

Share This Page